delay in citizenship recognised by govt

[torontosm]

@ torontosm. Well again all of us are against scammers and for the record the first time i saw the citizenship application i thought it is a joke and i'm glad that someone took the right step to make the RQ a required supplementary form for everyone. But just take the lady interviewed by CBC as an example she works for the 'federal government' and she provided, among other things, her pay stubs. The review of her RQ should probably take 2 hours at the most. Take me as a second example, i work for a well known company since 2005 with a good salary. In the pre-test interview, the CO took a copy of my employment letter and tax returns. how much time does it take someone to process such a case? i don't get it? do you? Further, i do not know any scammers my self, i may have heard about a case or two from friends who in turn heard it from others and so it's all hearsay. If they are not observable to us (people can correct me here) then they must be a minority. No body is against RQs but if I am able to provide you with evidence that amounts to 7 Kgms of paperwork (only a sample) then it shouldn't take you more than 2 hours to process my application. If CIC have concerns, despite such evidence, they should call me directly and tell me their concerns and i can explain to them things that may look like an inconsitency. If they don't do that, this is when bureucrary, anti-immigration sentiment, what you called 'conspiracy theories', comes into people minds. It cannot be that all/majority of people who received RQ are all unemployed. Hopefully reasonable people who are not biased agree with me that there are obvious scammers, slam dunk due citizens and cases in between. There is no logic for delaying slam dunk due to be citizens as there is no logic for delaying slam dunk scammers too.

I'm the first to admit the system isn't perfect, but unfortunately it is required. When you think back to 10 years ago, there were no RQ's and the citizenship application process was quick and efficient. But then, people started taking advantage of the government's trust and abusing the system. Now, the pendulum has started to swing in the other direction and unfortunately innocent deserving people will be inconvenienced. However, I don't think it's a huge issue. If your intent is indeed to make Canada your home (as the lady in the article you referenced claimed), then why should it make a difference if you get your citizenship in 1 year or 2? You have the same rights as a PR so be patient.

I'm sure that CIC would like to call each individual person to discuss their case, but they neither have the time nor the funds to do so. As a result, they put in place certain policies and protocols that must be adhered to, regardless if the applicant is a scammer or a genuine candidate.

As for your assertion about anti-immigrant sentiment, if that were true, then why would the government continue to accept new immigrants?

 

[mikeathome]

I see you opted to omit the part of the article that said:

""The process to revoke citizenship is lengthy so it will take some time to revoke the citizenship of thousands of people, considering the process started only a year and a half ago," Ana Curic said in an email."

As mentioned in the quote above, this process is new and will take time. However, I think it is a wonderful first step and that it's about time the government started doing something/anything to crack down on the fraud. It is far from perfect, and it is indeed expensive, but I am much happier having my tax dollars spent on initiatives like this than on supporting and providing benefits for people who aren't eligible for them.

Sure, I'll fight to the end even if it is hopeless and no matter what it costs may it exceed the return by a hundred times. This, with all due respect, is dumb, stubborn procedure from the past centuries...

Mike

 

[mikeathome]

I'm the first to admit the system isn't perfect, but unfortunately it is required. When you think back to 10 years ago, there were no RQ's and the citizenship application process was quick and efficient. But then, people started taking advantage of the government's trust and abusing the system. Now, the pendulum has started to swing in the other direction and unfortunately innocent deserving people will be inconvenienced. However, I don't think it's a huge issue. If your intent is indeed to make Canada your home (as the lady in the article you referenced claimed), then why should it make a difference if you get your citizenship in 1 year or 2? You have the same rights as a PR so be patient.

(...)

Well, you don't, especially you don't have a say where your tax dollars are wasted since you cannot vote out a tax wasting government. And you don't get it in one or two you might get it in four when a RQ is issued to you.

(...)
As for your assertion about anti-immigrant sentiment, if that were true, then why would the government continue to accept new immigrants?

Well, you know why, look at the demographic numbers...
The question is what kind of immigrants are welcome and how to control this w/o painting a racist picture of a country. This does not only apply to Canada, this is practise of almost all 'developed' countries. Well and is unfair!

Mike

 

[torontosm]

Sure, I'll fight to the end even if it is hopeless and no matter what it costs may it exceed the return by a hundred times. This, with all due respect, is dumb, stubborn procedure from the past centuries...

Mike

Sure, it would be much wiser to ignore it, pretend that there is no issue and trust in the goodness of people. That's worked so well in the past! I'd like to see what the cost is of this versus the cost of supporting the hundreds of thousands of people who gain citizenship or PR illegally.

 

[links18]

The bottom line is the CONs know they can rile up their knuckle-dragging base every time they hint that there is immigration fraud. Look at the comments to that article and honestly tell me there isn't a tendency to anti-immigrant hatred in this country that the can be stoked for political purposes. Of course, they also hope to sweep up a few "good immigrants" into the commotion also.

Look, nobody supports fraud. However, the processing time is out-of-control. It should not take this long for people who have played by the rules and who have met the requirements to get citizenship. In the U.S. the processing times are measured in a matter of months not years. There is no reason for this, other than to create an artificial political issue that will pit natural born Canadian against would be citizens.

Of course, all of this is highly contradictory. These aren't people trying to get into Canada. These are people already legally living here. One of the biggest complaints from the anti-immigrant crowd is that immigrants don't assimilate. Shouldn't they want people to get their citizenship as a way of integrating them fully into Canadian society, politics and culture? How does treating them with a sense of contempt, indignity and suspicion further than goal? How does keeping them in a state of limbo for years further that goal? Its pure schadenfreude.

Speed up the processing time. Drop the indiscriminate use of RQs and stop changing the rules in the middle of the process.

 

[torontosm]

Well, you don't, especially you don't have a say where your tax dollars are wasted since you cannot vote out a tax wasting government. And you don't get it in one or two you might get it in four when a RQ is issued to you.

I really don't think this fringe portion of the population is supporting the national economy with their tax dollars. Regardless, they don't have a say until they become citizens, and in order to get there, they must follow a process. Deal with it.

Well, you know why, look at the demographic numbers...
The question is what kind of immigrants are welcome and how to control this w/o painting a racist picture of a country. This does not only apply to Canada, this is practise of almost all 'developed' countries. Well and is unfair!
Mike

What demographic numbers? Which immigrants do you think are being excluded for "racist" reasons? Non-whites? The three largest immigrant group are from the Phillipines, China and India. That doesn't sound very racist or exclusionary. It's easy to throw around accusations but unfortunately the truth doesn't support them.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pdf/research-stats/facts2011.pdf

 

[torontosm]

The bottom line is the CONs know they can rile up their knuckle-dragging base every time they hint that there is immigration fraud. Look at the comments to that article and honestly tell me there isn't a tendency to anti-immigrant hatred in this country that the can be stoked for political purposes. Of course, they also hope to sweep up a few "good immigrants" into the commotion also.

But there is fraud, and instead of pretending it doesn't exist (like the Liberals love to do), at least something is being done. I agree that the anti-immigrant hatred has increased, but I think the rampant fraud that occurred over the last 10 years has a lot to do with it. And yes, unfortunately, many innocent immigrants who have played by the rules also get swept up in it.

However, the processing time is out-of-control. It should not take this long for people who have played by the rules and who have met the requirements to get citizenship. In the U.S. the processing times are measured in a matter of months not years.

Out of control compared to what benchmark? Where does it say that citizenship will be provided within a specified period of time after receipt of the application? Unfortunately, the government sets its own rules and we have to live by them. As for the US, their system is so convoluted that I'm not sure we want to use them as a point of comparison.

Of course, all of this is highly contradictory. These aren't people trying to get into Canada. These are people already legally living here. One of the biggest complaints from the anti-immigrant crowd is that immigrants don't assimilate. Shouldn't they want people to get their citizenship as a way of integrating them fully into Canadian society, politics and culture? How does treating them with a sense of contempt, indignity and suspicion further than goal? How does keeping them in a state of limbo for years further that goal? Its pure schadenfreude.

These are not all people living in Canada. As evidenced on these boards, many of the people applying, be it for citizenship or PR renewal, don't live here at all, or have any intention of living here. And if the people here are so keen on assimilating, and intend to live here for the long term, then what difference does it make whether they become citizens today or in one year? When was the last time anyone asked you whether you were a citizen or a PR? I've been living in Canada for a long time, and I have not been treated any differently as a citizen than I was as a PR.

There is no state of limbo....you can work, travel, access healthcare, access education....in effect live your daily life equally as well as a PR as you can as a citizen. The only people it really affects are those that want to take the passport and leave Canada immediately, and to be completely honest, I couldn't care less if those people are slightly inconvenienced.

 

[links18]

But there is fraud, and instead of pretending it doesn't exist (like the Liberals love to do), at least something is being done. I agree that the anti-immigrant hatred has increased, but I think the rampant fraud that occurred over the last 10 years has a lot to do with it. And yes, unfortunately, many innocent immigrants who have played by the rules also get swept up in it.

Out of control compared to what benchmark? Where does it say that citizenship will be provided within a specified period of time after receipt of the application? Unfortunately, the government sets its own rules and we have to live by them. As for the US, their system is so convoluted that I'm not sure we want to use them as a point of comparison.

Citizenship processing times are much less onerous in the U.S., an official homeland security state. Once again, we are comparing people who have already met the requirements and played by the rules. You shouldn't have to wait two years or more to learn your fate. Good governance says that processing shouldn't be longer than 12 months at the most.

[quote author=torontosm]

These are not all people living in Canada. As evidenced on these boards, many of the people applying, be it for citizenship or PR renewal, don't live here at all, or have any intention of living here. And if the people here are so keen on assimilating, and intend to live here for the long term, then what difference does it make whether they become citizens today or in one year? When was the last time anyone asked you whether you were a citizen or a PR? I've been living in Canada for a long time, and I have not been treated any differently as a citizen than I was as a PR.

[/quote]

Most do live in Canada. And for those who don't, there is no legal requirement to do so once you have met the 3 out of 4 years. You've never had an unexpected change of life circumstances? Your spouse offered a job overseas? You are supposed to wait around working at Tim Hortons while CIC screws around with your application, because you are afraid of triggering an RQ by traveling? They tell you there is one set of requirements, but even through you have met them--you find out, often in the middle of the process, that there may be another set (i.e. your post-application travel will be scrutinized) and yet you have no real idea when you will get a definitive resolution. Its positively Kafkaesque.

[quote author=torontosm]

There is no state of limbo....you can work, travel, access healthcare, access education....in effect live your daily life equally as well as a PR as you can as a citizen. The only people it really affects are those that want to take the passport and leave Canada immediately, and to be completely honest, I couldn't care less if those people are slightly inconvenienced.
[/quote]

You can't vote, can't hold certain jobs and you are often afraid to travel for fear of inviting further scrutiny; can't make certain life decisions without worrying about putting your application at risk, not to mention living in a state of fear and anxiety that someone will accuse you of being a cheater; so no, it is not as you say it is.

 

[Hnhkrk]

If you want to live and work in a country, you have to be willing to go through the processes that country has set in place. If you're unwilling to go through the process and find it too difficult or unfair, you shouldn't be a part of that country in any way shape or form.

I don't mean to sound rude, but it's what I think.

If you're complaining about Immigration, you're going to complain about every aspect of the government. Why go through the hassle of getting status in a country you're not even going to enjoy it? I know my application didn't take as long as others, but I was just as stressed and paranoid over it as everyone else is and even though it was a lot of work and took a lot of time, I never complained. Why? Because I knew that it could take up to 17 months for my application to finish processing, and I was prepared for that. In fact, I was more than happy to wait that long if it meant that I was going to have a better, happier life when it was all over. The CIC doesn't lie to you about how long your application could take. It's very easy to find estimated processing times.

Immigration offices have to deal with things we couldn't even imagine. Not everyone submits completed applications, not everyone has straight-forward cases, and not everyone on knowledgeable on how the process works. They have to deal with hundreds of thousands of calls every day (most of them about very silly, small things and human errors), and I don't even want to think about what it takes to keep an Immigration office running.

I personally think that although the CIC has it's issues, it is very efficient. I find that most people that have issues with their applications are confused about the process and haven't filled out the information correctly.

Seriously, I've researched what it takes to become a resident (or citizen) of other countries, and Canada really isn't all that bad. If waiting a few extra months means that one less malicious person is granted residency, I'm fine with it.

 

[torontosm]

Once again, we are comparing people who have already met the requirements and played by the rules. You shouldn't have to wait two years or more to learn your fate. Good governance says that processing shouldn't be longer than 12 months at the most.

If you have a magic ball that can tell you which applicants have played by the rule and which haven;t, perhaps you should lend it to CIC. They obviously don't and as a result, have to scrutinize applications that bear certain characteristics as well as some at random to ensure quality control.

You are supposed to wait around working at Tim Hortons while CIC screws around with your application, because you are afraid of triggering an RQ by traveling? They tell you there is one set of requirements, but even through you have met them--you find out, often in the middle of the process, that there may be another set (i.e. your post-application travel will be scrutinized) and yet you have no real idea when you will get a definitive resolution. Its positively Kafkaesque.

I don't see your point. So what if you get a RQ? A RQ is not a rejection of your citizenship application. If you have played by the rules, fill it out and send it back. What do you have to hide? And CIC never tells you that there is a set of rules...you are just assuming that. CIC reserves the right to ask you whatever they need to to verify your information.

You can't vote, can't hold certain jobs and you are often afraid to travel for fear of inviting further scrutiny; can't make certain life decisions without worrying about putting your application at risk, not to mention living in a state of fear and anxiety that someone will accuse you of being a cheater; so no, it is not as you say it is.

What jobs can't you hold? The CBC article that started this debate even quoted a lady who worked for an agency of the federal government without being a citizen. So unless you are complaining about not being to work in some top secret position within intelligence, I don't see your point.

As for not being able to make life decisions, see my point above. If you want to travel, go ahead. CIC will not reject your application. At worst, they will ask you for more information, if that. I don't see how that prompts living "in a state of fear and anxiety". Seems like an awful over-reaction to me.

At the end of the day, these are the rules the government has set. If you think the US system is better, you are welcome to try and get citizenship there.

 

[Halloum]

If you want to live and work in a country, you have to be willing to go through the processes that country has set in place. If you're unwilling to go through the process and find it too difficult or unfair, you shouldn't be a part of that country in any way shape or form.

I don't mean to sound rude, but it's what I think.

If you're complaining about Immigration, you're going to complain about every aspect of the government. Why go through the hassle of getting status in a country you're not even going to enjoy it? I know my application didn't take as long as others, but I was just as stressed and paranoid over it as everyone else is and even though it was a lot of work and took a lot of time, I never complained. Why? Because I knew that it could take up to 17 months for my application to finish processing, and I was prepared for that. In fact, I was more than happy to wait that long if it meant that I was going to have a better, happier life when it was all over. The CIC doesn't lie to you about how long your application could take. It's very easy to find estimated processing times.

Immigration offices have to deal with things we couldn't even imagine. Not everyone submits completed applications, not everyone has straight-forward cases, and not everyone on knowledgeable on how the process works. They have to deal with hundreds of thousands of calls every day (most of them about very silly, small things and human errors), and I don't even want to think about what it takes to keep an Immigration office running.

I personally think that although the CIC has it's issues, it is very efficient. I find that most people that have issues with their applications are confused about the process and haven't filled out the information correctly.

Seriously, I've researched what it takes to become a resident (or citizen) of other countries, and Canada really isn't all that bad. If waiting a few extra months means that one less malicious person is granted residency, I'm fine with it.

Welcome to Canada!! Cool down, do not stress too much, it's uncanadian !

 

[torontosm]

If you want to live and work in a country, you have to be willing to go through the processes that country has set in place. If you're unwilling to go through the process and find it too difficult or unfair, you shouldn't be a part of that country in any way shape or form.

I don't mean to sound rude, but it's what I think.

If you're complaining about Immigration, you're going to complain about every aspect of the government. Why go through the hassle of getting status in a country you're not even going to enjoy it? I know my application didn't take as long as others, but I was just as stressed and paranoid over it as everyone else is and even though it was a lot of work and took a lot of time, I never complained. Why? Because I knew that it could take up to 17 months for my application to finish processing, and I was prepared for that. In fact, I was more than happy to wait that long if it meant that I was going to have a better, happier life when it was all over. The CIC doesn't lie to you about how long your application could take. It's very easy to find estimated processing times.

Immigration offices have to deal with things we couldn't even imagine. Not everyone submits completed applications, not everyone has straight-forward cases, and not everyone on knowledgeable on how the process works. They have to deal with hundreds of thousands of calls every day (most of them about very silly, small things and human errors), and I don't even want to think about what it takes to keep an Immigration office running.

I personally think that although the CIC has it's issues, it is very efficient. I find that most people that have issues with their applications are confused about the process and haven't filled out the information correctly.

Seriously, I've researched what it takes to become a resident (or citizen) of other countries, and Canada really isn't all that bad. If waiting a few extra months means that one less malicious person is granted residency, I'm fine with it.

Well said. I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Hnhkrk]

Welcome to Canada!! Cool down man, do not stress too much, it's uncanadian !

Hahaha, I laughed at this so hard. You're totally right. I'm not stressed though - just stating an opinion.

 

[Halloum]

Speaking of my self i could have applied for citizenship more than 13 months earlier than i had. I was not in a rush and continue to be. i do recognise the importance of patience, but -whether some like it or not- i preserve my right to criticize a process that in my view is becoming beyond absurd.

We can all have different perspectives on what is reasonable and what is not, but some of us need to realise they are neither the all-knowing nor the only patriot to this country. I personally know about 3 real cases where the unreasonable delay have affected undue hardship on fellow human beings. Other applicants also have the right to be concerned because they would not want to see their applications returned to them after being in lineup for years. If our hon minister is concerned about the backlog why shouldn't we?

 

[links18]

They obviously don't and as a result, have to scrutinize applications that bear certain characteristics as well as some at random to ensure quality control.

Which characteristics are those? Who decides the characteristics? What are they so I can avoid them?

[quote author=torontosm]

I don't see your point. So what if you get a RQ? A RQ is not a rejection of your citizenship application. If you have played by the rules, fill it out and send it back. What do you have to hide? And CIC never tells you that there is a set of rules...you are just assuming that. CIC reserves the right to ask you whatever they need to to verify your information.
[/quote]

Fine, just do it within a reasonable time frame. Reports are that applications are being rejected/subjected to additional scrutiny for post-application travel. This is despite the fact that CIC officially tells you that post-application travel is not relevant. Just what is the criteria? You are actually making my point for me. What are the bloody rules?

[quote author=torontosm]
What jobs can't you hold? The CBC article that started this debate even quoted a lady who worked for an agency of the federal government without being a citizen. So unless you are complaining about not being to work in some top secret position within intelligence, I don't see your point.
[/quote]

Canadian citizens are given preference in all federal hiring. Try getting a job with the federal government w/o Canadian citizenship. It is very hard; if not impossible.

[quote author=torontosm]
As for not being able to make life decisions, see my point above. If you want to travel, go ahead. CIC will not reject your application. At worst, they will ask you for more information, if that. I don't see how that prompts living "in a state of fear and anxiety". Seems like an awful over-reaction to me.
[/quote]

Are you sure CIC won't reject an application due to post-application travel? There are reports to the contrary. But you aren't getting the point. Suppose you submitted your application 12 months ago. Your spouse is offered a temporary position overseas and you plan to return to Canada when he/she is done. You believe your citizenship application will be processed in 19 months (as per the website). You decide to wait for 7 months to join your spouse. Then 12 months later you get an RQ and are told the process could take another 2 to 3 years! What are you supposed to do? Join your spouse and fear losing your citizenship, because you will have been judged to have abandoned Canada? Of course, this is after you already met the requirements under the law. Fear and anxiety. See my point?

[quote author=torontosm]

At the end of the day, these are the rules the government has set. If you think the US system is better, you are welcome to try and get citizenship there.
[/quote]

No, we don't know what the rules are, because they won't tell us. What triggers an RQ? I have no idea. Do you? As far as US citizenship is concerned, what is this--the old "if you don't like it leave" argument? Immigrants do not have the right to complain about anything? Is there any delay you would consider unreasonable? 6 years? 10 years? 20 years? At the end of the day even Minister Kenney agrees with me (see link). I guess they figured they want some of that immigrant vote after all. The question is: What is he going to do about it?

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/04/25/jason-kenney-citizenship-applications_n_3155570.html