Conflict between CEC and international education

[on-hold]

I was just thinking about this, I'm curious about other peoples' opinion. It seems to me that there is a basic conflict now between the CEC and international students. Canada has decided that it prefers to give permanent residency to people who have already demonstrated some local ability (language and cultural) by getting a Canadian degree; but a basic part of applying for an international student visa is demonstrating willingness to return home post-study.

It's sort of like saying the following: "We really prefer to accept immigrants who have degrees from Canadian schools; but we're not going to give you a visa to study here if it looks like you might want to apply for that status when you finish."

It's a weird dynamic where the better a person would fit here in Canada the less likely they are to be approved for study.

 

[tiger007]

I was just thinking about this, I'm curious about other peoples' opinion. It seems to me that there is a basic conflict now between the CEC and international students. Canada has decided that it prefers to give permanent residency to people who have already demonstrated some local ability (language and cultural) by getting a Canadian degree; but a basic part of applying for an international student visa is demonstrating willingness to return home post-study.

It's sort of like saying the following: "We really prefer to accept immigrants who have degrees from Canadian schools; but we're not going to give you a visa to study here if it looks like you might want to apply for that status when you finish."

It's a weird dynamic where the better a person would fit here in Canada the less likely they are to be approved for study.

Hi,

True... it is quiet contradicting.

If you see the official CIC website: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/study/study-who.asp

They have clearly mentioned: You must satisfy an immigration officer that you will leave Canada at the end of your authorized stay.

And yet, to encourage student immigration, Canada currently has one of most liberal student immigration programs for international students such as CEC and other PNPs.

It's like they need students (future immigrants)... but only genuine/ selective ( have their own definition and conditions... which is inconsistent and can be anywhere from sensible to outright absurd) and yet have kept that clause of satisfying officers... that the student must leave Canada after the end of studies... to give visa officers a legal power and a valid reason (or rather say excuse) to deny visas.


***All opinions expressed are purely personal, and pieces of information mentioned are to the best of my knowledge... You should consult other sources too.

 

[Josh21]

Actually, there is no conflict.

If you read the CIC manual once, you'll notice that this is called dual intent.

They wont refuse you if you have intentions to stay, they will refuse you if they think you plan to stay in the event that your PR application is denied. There's a difference.

For example a person whos well settled in his home country and generally smart academically would pose less of risk in over staying if his PR is ultimately denied. There is no problem with him seeking PR however and the officer wont refuse him for planning to do so in the future.

 

[tiger007]

Actually, there is no conflict.

If you read the CIC manual once, you'll notice that this is called dual intent.

They wont refuse you if you have intentions to stay, they will refuse you if they think you plan to stay in the event that your PR application is denied. There's a difference.

For example a person whos well settled in his home country and generally smart academically would pose less of risk in over staying if his PR is ultimately denied. There is no problem with him seeking PR however and the officer wont refuse him for planning to do so in the future.

Hi,

But it still... doesn't change the fact that:
You must satisfy an immigration officer that you will leave Canada at the end of your authorized stay.

And

It's ultimately at the discretion of the Visa officer whether to issue a student visa or not, solely on his/her judgement. As ,there is NO set criteria and parameters to judge... who is a genuine student (with or without dual intent) and who is not.

This one sentence clause, gives V.O the full power to approve or reject the visa.




***All opinions expressed are purely personal, and pieces of information mentioned are to the best of my knowledge... You should consult other sources too.

 

[on-hold]

Actually, there is no conflict.

If you read the CIC manual once, you'll notice that this is called dual intent.

They wont refuse you if you have intentions to stay, they will refuse you if they think you plan to stay in the event that your PR application is denied. There's a difference.

For example a person whos well settled in his home country and generally smart academically would pose less of risk in over staying if his PR is ultimately denied. There is no problem with him seeking PR however and the officer wont refuse him for planning to do so in the future.

But you say it yourself! "A person whos well settled in his home country . . . would pose less of a risk in overstaying . . ." So that person is more likely to get a student visa; and students are becoming one of Canada's main sources of skilled immigrants; so Canada is trying to choose its skilled immigrants from a group of people who are less likely to immigrate, because to get a visa you have to have a reason to go home.

How does that make sense?

 

[cute_guy]

They are simply stating this " We want skilled immigrants and we will choose them on our terms, so that if they don't fit in Canada later they would simply leave without causing any troubles". ??? ???

 

[Josh21]

But you say it yourself! "A person whos well settled in his home country . . . would pose less of a risk in overstaying . . ." So that person is more likely to get a student visa; and students are becoming one of Canada's main sources of skilled immigrants; so Canada is trying to choose its skilled immigrants from a group of people who are less likely to immigrate, because to get a visa you have to have a reason to go home.

How does that make sense?

No, I didn't say that. They're choosing skilled immigrants from a group of people who are less likely to break the law and overstay. There is absolutely no problem in them seeking or likely to seek immigration. I suspect your not understanding the difference, but just know that the probably of them seeking immigration in the future has no impact on their visa status. It's the probability that they will break the law if left with no other option which is the concern.

 

[NatalyaBrazil]

Hello guys,

This is my first time actually writing in the forum, but I have been following all your posts for quite a while now.
So, first, thanks and congratulations for the job you do here, it's really great.

Well, my question is simple but I have a significant big history behind it that I will need to share so you can know my profile and all.

In 2009 my husband and I applied for the Working Holiday Visa and had our first experience in Canada (Toronto). We lived there for a little over 1 year and we took really great advantage of our temporary work visa, working for major companies there - MacKenzie Financial and IBM Canada - as we both have a background in IT. We tried to get an LMO from our employers but they weren't willing to do that, we tried an extension by ourselves but got ultimatelly refused so we returned to Brazil, our home country.
Since then we have been trying to return to Canada on a permanent basis but we got caught in thie middle of the Immigration changes (2010 was the year they cut IT off the list for the FSWP), so we decided to try and go to Quebec. I returned to Canada - Montreal - in 2011 for a super intensive French course and when I got back, they changed the french requirements and I didn't have enough skills to get us both though the program. So we decided to try the CEC program, but for that I needed to study and work in Canada before anything, so last year we applied for my student visa and my husband's open work permit. The visas were refused due to lack of attachments with my country and no sufficient funds to support us through the 2-year Culinary Management program that I decided to take at George Brown.
We then decided to wait for the new immigration changes for the FSWP this year and were very appy to find my husband's profession on the list. We hurried to get as many documents as possible together before May 4th, but it was only then that we noticed that we had scored only 66 points, therefore making us not eligible for this program.
So we decided to go back to the other plan, the CEC plan. And we're about to apply for the student visa again for the september intake.
The thing is : I'm afraid that they sill refuse again because we really can't provide evidence that we will live Canada after the authorized stay. I mean, it's clear that we have been trying to go back. It' controversial that they need this kind of proof but I get it. I have no intentions whatsoever in staying over or doing anything that I'm not authorized, and my history prooves that : we didn't stay even 1 minute over ehat they allowed in the first time, I went back to Montreal and returned withing the period authorized and even though we have been trying to go back, we just want to do this according to their immigration laws.

Anyway, this is my idea:
Apply only for my student visa this time and for this I have a pretty god reason to return: my husband staying here. And the funds we'll have to show will be less than funds for two people.
A few months later, we apply for a temporary resident visa for my hubby stating that he wants to spend his work vacation with me in T.O. Once granted, he goes and try to change his status for a temporary worker while there saying that he has done interviews and there are chances of getting a job once he gets a visa - he can work home office while he gets a response. If denied, he rerturns home and we try again later.

What do you think?
Is it a good strategy?
I want to do the right thing to get this visa. I don't wanna try in the dark.

Thanks in advance for any help I can get.

 

[Regina]

A few months later, we apply for a temporary resident visa for my hubby stating that he wants to spend his work vacation with me in T.O.
Once granted, he goes and try to change his status for a temporary worker while there saying that he has done interviews and there are chances of getting a job once he gets a visa

You could try. However, if he applies for WP sooner that 60 days after arrival, CIC will consider his statement to VO that he wanted only a temporary visitor visa- a misrepresentation, and could reject his application for WP on this ground. So he has to get permission at POE to stay longer than 60 days.

he can work home office while he gets a response

I doubt. He cannot work in Canada without work permit. Under some circumstances, I think, he could work for his homeland company online but you better ask a lawyer about that!

And, by the way, to leave husband behind could not be such a great idea. Because in Canada it is not a usual thing to leave your spouse and got to another country alone for 2-4 years. They do not believe in such a kind of family relationship.

 

[Regina]

visa is demonstrating willingness to return home post-study.

it is confusing but only on the first glance.

What CIC wants to see is that a student who will not be able to get a job (for any reasons) will not stay in Canad illegally but would prefer to go home because he has there something so valuable that he/she will never prefer illegal troubles to safe environment at home. CIC wants only those students to stay and get LR status who will follow immigration rules but not hold on to Canada for any cost.

 

[NatalyaBrazil]

And, by the way, to leave husband behind could not be such a great idea. Because in Canada it is not a usual thing to leave your spouse and got to another country alone for 2-4 years. They do not believe in such a kind of family relationship.

I agree completely. I really hope we don't have to do this, this is our last last last option, but we will if we have to. But I like this way that Canadians think, about family relationships, and that is why they provide work permits for students so that the family can be together all the time. And I really hope they consider this when assessing my application and grant my husband's visa...

 

[Josh21]

It's quite clear though that you have no actual interest in studying. You're basically trying to enter as a student for a program which you have clearly just chosen as a means to an end. Could this possibly be the reason for your first refusal? I mean you're applying to study a chef management course and yet you have background in IT? Does this make any sense to a person looking at your file other then a way to enter the country?

It would help if your program or educational institution seemed more genuine in my opinion. Any university would go a long way in helping your case.

 

[on-hold]

A perfect illustration of my original point! Thank you, Natalya, for showing how making studying in Canada a gateway to permanent immigration doesn't make complete sense.

I'm sorry that I don't have too much to advise you -- your situation is very complicated, and I was fortunate enough to immigrate under the post-2008 changes, during a very brief window when my occupation was acceptable and the process was simple, with none of these caps or dates for submitting applications and IELTS scores for native speakers. From what I've heard, the Quebec program is somewhat more lenient -- I think instead of trying to find something to study, and a complicated set of different applications that all mesh rather poorly, you should do a masters in IT (in Brazil) and improve your French. Portuguese and French are not that different, as the world's languages go, and many people with worse language skills than you have gone to Quebec (and then left immediately).

And I have a question for you . . . Before coming to Canada I lived in Thailand, and obtained and planted some jaboticaba seeds. Now they are growing, very slowly, and my relatives there are complaining about watering them every day. I have never actually eaten any . . . can you tell me if they are worth it? And do you know any tips to make them grow faster?

Good luck!

 

[NatalyaBrazil]

A perfect illustration of my original point! Thank you, Natalya, for showing how making studying in Canada a gateway to permanent immigration doesn't make complete sense.

I'm sorry that I don't have too much to advise you -- your situation is very complicated, and I was fortunate enough to immigrate under the post-2008 changes, during a very brief window when my occupation was acceptable and the process was simple, with none of these caps or dates for submitting applications and IELTS scores for native speakers. From what I've heard, the Quebec program is somewhat more lenient -- I think instead of trying to find something to study, and a complicated set of different applications that all mesh rather poorly, you should do a masters in IT (in Brazil) and improve your French. Portuguese and French are not that different, as the world's languages go, and many people with worse language skills than you have gone to Quebec (and then left immediately).

And I have a question for you . . . Before coming to Canada I lived in Thailand, and obtained and planted some jaboticaba seeds. Now they are growing, very slowly, and my relatives there are complaining about watering them every day. I have never actually eaten any . . . can you tell me if they are worth it? And do you know any tips to make them grow faster?

Good luck!

Well, I failed to mention in my first post that I don't have any post-secondary education, nor in IT nor in any other area. I have over 4 years experience in IT and I was lucky enough to be able to leave a career that I did not enjoy. I'm young, I'm 26 and I can change careers if I want to, and I want to. It's been 2 years since I left the last IT company I worked for. I have been working with catering for almost 2 years now, but on an informal basis. And I want to make this my job, and for that I need to study. I honestly don't think my applications have been poorly thought through. I actually have a pretty clear plan in my head. I was going to get a higher education anyway, so I might as well do it in Canada and get my permanent residency after that.

I am not using this as an excuse to immigrate, with no intetion to study. That is not true. I will study Culinary Management one way or another. This is the career I have chosen for myself.

I have IELTS academic overall band 8.0 with L-9, S-9, R-7,5, W-6,5. I have maximum points for all the FSWP criteria except Education ( which my husband is improving and almost getting his diploma ) and arranged employment - and then we will apply for the FSWP, if there are spots available for the 2013 intake. In the mean time I will build a solid and making-sense case to show those visa officers that my intentions for studying are serious. Whatever happens first - being able to send the application for the federal program OR getting the student visa - I'm in!

About Jabuticabas.. Sorry but I can't help you. I personally don't like to eat them so I don't have any interest in them. All I know is that the tree gives fruits for a very short period of the year, mostly in the rain season - here in Brazil, between january and march.

 

[NatalyaBrazil]

From what I've heard, the Quebec program is somewhat more lenient -- I think instead of trying to find something to study, and a complicated set of different applications that all mesh rather poorly, you should do a masters in IT (in Brazil) and improve your French. Portuguese and French are not that different, as the world's languages go, and many people with worse language skills than you have gone to Quebec (and then left immediately).

Oh, and another thing.
We decided not to do the Quebec program. We have no intentions of living in Quebec so I don't think it's fair to enter through Quebec and then leave to another province.
I really intend to live in Toronto so if I need to wait until they open the applications for the FSWP again next year (and hope they won't cut off IT again) then I'll just wait.
I am studying French because I really enjoyed learning the language, but my husband doesn't speak French and we wouldn't be able to settle down in Quebec properly without the language skills.
I totally agree with the changes they made to the FSWP and the IELTS marks required to be considered. It didn't make any sense having a PhD title if you don't speak good English. At least in Toronto it's pretty hard to get a good job without speaking good English - I have seen many friends struggle with that.