Citizenship test: Collective action required, or expect endless delays, years. Example of the effective lobbyng of people awaiting spousal sponsorship

[zumbagirl]

No it can’t be mailed in, there’s zero way to ensure that cheating did not occur and it would require more work to have a person grade the test.

As I stated before, the fast way is to have the test taken orally and if a person passes the oath can be administered right then and there. It is already allowed by law, setup to be given, and it will not slow the process down.

I appreciate that you are trying to find solutions for this mess, but they have to be ones that operate within the current laws and pre-existing workflow structure. If they aren’t, then it’s just going to take even more time to get the tests up and running.

The department is not able to administer the test and all associated consequences are born solely by the clients. Can you imagine the same thing with the EI or CERB payments??? obviously not! This is not civilized or responsible approach. May I remind all of us that he applicants are actually paying for this processing! If department cannot operate within its own rules they just simply have to update their inhouse rules.
There is many ways to solve this problem: cancel the requirement for test for the time being is one. The other easy solution is to send home oat form to sign with a "skill testing question" which could serve as the "test".

This could be a good opportunity to get rid of test all together, as it serves no particular purpose other than an extra administrative hurdle citizenship applicants need to pass! one must ask what end we are doing this? teach civics? instill loyalty? etc non of these are accomplished by a test! there much better ways to support learning!
same thing with the oat ceremony. It is lovely tradition which should be kept as an !!!!!option!!!! for citizenship applicants. think of marriage, some people want big, flashy, church, etc affair others are happy to just sign a paper without all the expenses and commotion. Welcome to a liberal democracy in the 21st century Immigration Canada!!!

the political ramifications of this is also interesting. I think the liberals are pissing away all the goodwill they accumulated with the revised immigration and citizenship rules.... As this mess will be impacting close to a million citizenship applicants, one way or an other, by the time it is all back to normal in 2022, this could have sizeable impact on the next federal election.

for your reading pleasure this is the act:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-29/
at the bottom of the page is the lower level, related departmental regulation which speaks for the oat and test details! it is not in the act!!!!


ps:
Have you done the math on how much time and resources would be required to administer an oral test to the 500-700,000 applicants currently waiting for citizenship processing??? sounds more like a nightmare

anyway, write to your MP to advocate!!!!!

 

[canuck78]

No ... But one thing is certain: We will not hear anything if we remain in the passivity ... The wait will be several years, maybe 10 or more (with the backlog).

And can be disaster scenario, if a majority conservative government wins, and decides to cancel all our candidacies + implementation of more difficult conditions retroactively. (So envellopes sent back, and we will be a candidate again when we meet the new conditions) ... No science fiction at all, similar cases have happened in the past for some pr categories...

Even if there is an election and the conservatives get elected in a majority they can’t just change the citizenship requirements quickly so your creating unecessary fear. They will nor start sending all the applications back. We are years away from any possible changes in citizenship requirements.

 

[canuck78]

The department is not able to administer the test and all associated consequences are born solely by the clients. Can you imagine the same thing with the EI or CERB payments??? obviously not! This is not civilized or responsible approach. May I remind all of us that he applicants are actually paying for this processing! If department cannot operate within its own rules they just simply have to update their inhouse rules.
There is many ways to solve this problem: cancel the requirement for test for the time being is one. The other easy solution is to send home oat form to sign with a "skill testing question" which could serve as the "test".

This could be a good opportunity to get rid of test all together, as it serves no particular purpose other than an extra administrative hurdle citizenship applicants need to pass! one must ask what end we are doing this? teach civics? instill loyalty? etc non of these are accomplished by a test! there much better ways to support learning!
same thing with the oat ceremony. It is lovely tradition which should be kept as an !!!!!option!!!! for citizenship applicants. think of marriage, some people want big, flashy, church, etc affair others are happy to just sign a paper without all the expenses and commotion. Welcome to a liberal democracy in the 21st century Immigration Canada!!!

the political ramifications of this is also interesting. I think the liberals are pissing away all the goodwill they accumulated with the revised immigration and citizenship rules.... As this mess will be impacting close to a million citizenship applicants, one way or an other, by the time it is all back to normal in 2022, this could have sizeable impact on the next federal election.

ps:
Have you done the math on how much time and resources would be required to administer an oral test to the 500-700,000 applicants currently waiting for citizenship processing??? sounds more like a nightmare

anyway, write to your MP to advocate!!!!!

Citizenship processing is unlikely to be a high priority for most voters. For most people waiting for citizenship their everyday lives are not impacted by waiting for citizenship. Only those who want to leave Canada and want to qualify for a certain visa, refugees who want to visit their home countries or people needing citizenship to access very specific jobs are impacted by the delays so not enough people to influence any election outcomes. I am sure many are annoyed by the delays and would like citizenship but it is not preventing them from accessing healthcare, getting financial support during covid, etc. Those would be the types of issues that impact voting patterns. The citizenship process is administered by bureaucrats so the same situation would have likely happened with any party in power.


The department can’t just update the laws and get rid of the test or oath. They can’t legally do this. It is not a tradition it is a legal requirement. Your comparison to a wedding does not make sense since all marriages still require signing a marriage certificate and registering your wedding whether you have a fancy wedding or a short wedding. No matter what the test and oath ceremony most happen. You may not make a big deal about gaining citizenship but everyone still has to take the test and oath. Administering an oral tests while being socially distant and taking covid precautions is likely not feasible which is why it is not being offered. If there was an obvious solution it would have been implemented like virtual path ceremonies. Just so you know citizenship processing operates at a loss like all immigration applications.

 

[BOYX]

Yay government still remains. Anyone know when the next non-confidence vote can be called?

 

[Das67]

Administering an oral tests while being socially distant and taking covid precautions is likely not feasible which is why it is not being offered.

I just want to know why do you think the above is not feasible? Not being offered doesn't necessarily mean is not feasible.

 

[AshesNdust]

The department is not able to administer the test and all associated consequences are born solely by the clients. Can you imagine the same thing with the EI or CERB payments??? obviously not! This is not civilized or responsible approach. May I remind all of us that he applicants are actually paying for this processing! If department cannot operate within its own rules they just simply have to update their inhouse rules.
There is many ways to solve this problem: cancel the requirement for test for the time being is one. The other easy solution is to send home oat form to sign with a "skill testing question" which could serve as the "test".

This could be a good opportunity to get rid of test all together, as it serves no particular purpose other than an extra administrative hurdle citizenship applicants need to pass! one must ask what end we are doing this? teach civics? instill loyalty? etc non of these are accomplished by a test! there much better ways to support learning!
same thing with the oat ceremony. It is lovely tradition which should be kept as an !!!!!option!!!! for citizenship applicants. think of marriage, some people want big, flashy, church, etc affair others are happy to just sign a paper without all the expenses and commotion. Welcome to a liberal democracy in the 21st century Immigration Canada!!!

the political ramifications of this is also interesting. I think the liberals are pissing away all the goodwill they accumulated with the revised immigration and citizenship rules.... As this mess will be impacting close to a million citizenship applicants, one way or an other, by the time it is all back to normal in 2022, this could have sizeable impact on the next federal election.

for your reading pleasure this is the act:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-29/
at the bottom of the page is the lower level, related departmental regulation which speaks for the oat and test details! it is not in the act!!!!


ps:
Have you done the math on how much time and resources would be required to administer an oral test to the 500-700,000 applicants currently waiting for citizenship processing??? sounds more like a nightmare

anyway, write to your MP to advocate!!!!!

Citizenship processing is unlikely to be a high priority for most voters. For most people waiting for citizenship their everyday lives are not impacted by waiting for citizenship. Only those who want to leave Canada and want to qualify for a certain visa, refugees who want to visit their home countries or people needing citizenship to access very specific jobs are impacted by the delays so not enough people to influence any election outcomes. I am sure many are annoyed by the delays and would like citizenship but it is not preventing them from accessing healthcare, getting financial support during covid, etc. Those would be the types of issues that impact voting patterns. The citizenship process is administered by bureaucrats so the same situation would have likely happened with any party in power.


The department can’t just update the laws and get rid of the test or oath. They can’t legally do this. It is not a tradition it is a legal requirement. Your comparison to a wedding does not make sense since all marriages still require signing a marriage certificate and registering your wedding whether you have a fancy wedding or a short wedding. No matter what the test and oath ceremony most happen. You may not make a big deal about gaining citizenship but everyone still has to take the test and oath. Administering an oral tests while being socially distant and taking covid precautions is likely not feasible which is why it is not being offered. If there was an obvious solution it would have been implemented like virtual path ceremonies. Just so you know citizenship processing operates at a loss like all immigration applications.

Thank you Canuck78 for your reply, this is exactly why we have to do the test and oath. Some people don’t seem to understand laws can’t just be put aside and what’s important to them doesn’t make it important to everyone else.

 

[skydiving]

Just do the online testing, let us go to Service Canada, do the online testing, like the driver's license test. Honestly, who needs to cheat in the citizenship test...Speaking of law, there were some ppl got citizenship without getting tests, although just for an exception, but shouldn't everyone be equal in front of law???

 

[canuck78]

I just want to know why do you think the above is not feasible? Not being offered doesn't necessarily mean is not feasible.

The government will have to set up a big enough room to do this testing and make sure that there was adequate ventilation. There will need to be a cleaning staff to clean both the chair and potentially bathroom between every person. There will need to be accommodation for people who may not be able to hear well and not be able to take an oral test, some may be difficult to understand by the test taker especially with a mask on, some may complain that they can’t hear well enough without the mask and challenge the test results, etc. Assume giving people a copy of the written test at the same time would be necessary. Then they would need to calculate how many tests would be possible per hour when factoring in cleaning between people and likely a screening test at the entrance to the facility. If they can only do maybe 4 people an hour would it be risk administering an oral test given potential health and safety risks of both the screening staff, the test administrator, the test taker and the cleaner. There would need to be an assessment as to whether such a high cost and small number of applicants processed would make oral tests a good option. Perhaps this may be an option for situations where urgent processing is needed. For example in situations where citizenship is needed for a person to get a certain job in Canada this might be a good option. If a person wants citizenship as soon as possible to qualify for a visa to work in the US the potential risk of exposure to covid would likely not be worth it. As I have mentioned before having citizenship will not make a large difference in people’s everyday lives for most so determining the urgency of restarting testing will need to be considered. If it won’t impact most people’s everyday lives is it worth the expense of setting up a new system or the risk of exposure of employees or test takers. I understand that people are anxious to receive their citizenship and am not dismissing this but how urgent processing is and whether it requires extra investment to ensure people receive citizenship as soon as possible is unclear.

 

[canuck78]

Just do the online testing, let us go to Service Canada, do the online testing, like the driver's license test. Honestly, who needs to cheat in the citizenship test...Speaking of law, there were some ppl got citizenship without getting tests, although just for an exception, but shouldn't everyone be equal in front of law???

Not quite that easy. They would first need to set up the test to be able to do it online. Whether each service Canada has an area where you could have computers set up in a socially distanced way and that would not interfere with other service would need to be examined. Then you’d need to have someone monitoring for cheating and have someone ready to clean between each test taker. This would need to be someone assigned to monitor and ask any questions. Would service Canada have an extra employee who would able to take on this role at each location? They would need to be given a bit of a background so they could answer basic questions. Then you’d need to contact all the people waiting fo take the test and advise them of the new system. Assume each service Canada location may have someone doing covid screening and only letting in a certain amount of people into the service Canada location. If this isn’t the case someone would need to be hired especially for the first weeks. There are plenty of people who will cheat if there is no monitoring. There are people who attempt to cheat daily at the DMV.

The DMV has a system already set-up. It will take time and money to set up this temporary system and it may not be possible in every service Canada location. You need adequate space to set up computer kiosks like they have at the DMV although these will need to be at a certain distance from each other and likely with some sort of physical barrier but will allow for monitoring at the same time, this will need to be set-up in most service Canada locations so we are not talking about a quick and easy solution.

 

[Das67]

The government will have to set up a big enough room to do this testing and make sure that there was adequate ventilation. There will need to be a cleaning staff to clean both the chair and potentially bathroom between every person. There will need to be accommodation for people who may not be able to hear well and not be able to take an oral test, some may be difficult to understand by the test taker especially with a mask on, some may complain that they can’t hear well enough without the mask and challenge the test results, etc. Assume giving people a copy of the written test at the same time would be necessary. Then they would need to calculate how many tests would be possible per hour when factoring in cleaning between people and likely a screening test at the entrance to the facility. If they can only do maybe 4 people an hour would it be risk administering an oral test given potential health and safety risks of both the screening staff, the test administrator, the test taker and the cleaner. There would need to be an assessment as to whether such a high cost and small number of applicants processed would make oral tests a good option. Perhaps this may be an option for situations where urgent processing is needed. For example in situations where citizenship is needed for a person to get a certain job in Canada this might be a good option. If a person wants citizenship as soon as possible to qualify for a visa to work in the US the potential risk of exposure to covid would likely not be worth it. As I have mentioned before having citizenship will not make a large difference in people’s everyday lives for most so determining the urgency of restarting testing will need to be considered. If it won’t impact most people’s everyday lives is it worth the expense of setting up a new system or the risk of exposure of employees or test takers. I understand that people are anxious to receive their citizenship and am not dismissing this but how urgent processing is and whether it requires extra investment to ensure people receive citizenship as soon as possible is unclear.

Got your point and I prefer not to start arguing with you on this. If granted citizenship is not urgent right now then stop taking people's applications and stop collecting fees until they are able to restart everything.When you take someone's money for a service and you aren't able to provide that service, it's called fraud period.

 

[hotshot45890]

We are in exceptional times which require a bit of initiative and forward thinking to do things differently. Excuses can always be made on why something cannot be done and why things are difficult. Things have been difficult for a lot of professions and people but things are being changed to deal with this. I am sorry but I cannot buy the excuse here by others that this is not important and it is difficult to manage e.tc and not a priority for the government. If it is not a priority, has IRCC staff and the minister stopped taking their salary as they can't do anything? Have IRCC released a statement that they will not do anything in this service line until COVID passess? This is going to stick around for atleast 2 more years if not longer. Any vaccine if and when comes out is not going to be 100% effective. Government needs to adapt their service offerings accordingly.

Let's review some facts here:

- Schools are open now
- All childcare and related activities are open now with effective social distancing

If these locations are open why can't government go ahead and implement testing effectively. It is because of the following reasons:
- Most of IRCC staff are on 699 leave. Which means that they are taking full salary without doing anything. Delays in AORs is a great example of this. There is no social distancing required to open, review and input applications but that did not happen for a long time and it is still very slow
-They have a strong union which is using COVID to justify reduced work. Aren't we entitled to some accountability from government officials being paid from our taxes?
- Why hasn't there been any communication with us the impacted stakeholders? If there are problems why doesn't IRCC and the government publicly communicate those?

The significant delay now does not pass the smell test. I urge anyone reading to decide for themselves what is going on here, what is appropriate and if there should be any accountability from IRCC.

 

[sachinsoman1988]

We are in exceptional times which require a bit of initiative and forward thinking to do things differently. Excuses can always be made on why something cannot be done and why things are difficult. Things have been difficult for a lot of professions and people but things are being changed to deal with this. I am sorry but I cannot buy the excuse here by others that this is not important and it is difficult to manage e.tc and not a priority for the government. If it is not a priority, has IRCC staff and the minister stopped taking their salary as they can't do anything? Have IRCC released a statement that they will not do anything in this service line until COVID passess? This is going to stick around for atleast 2 more years if not longer. Any vaccine if and when comes out is not going to be 100% effective. Government needs to adapt their service offerings accordingly.

Let's review some facts here:

- Schools are open now
- All childcare and related activities are open now with effective social distancing

If these locations are open why can't government go ahead and implement testing effectively. It is because of the following reasons:
- Most of IRCC staff are on 699 leave. Which means that they are taking full salary without doing anything. Delays in AORs is a great example of this. There is no social distancing required to open, review and input applications but that did not happen for a long time and it is still very slow
-They have a strong union which is using COVID to justify reduced work. Aren't we entitled to some accountability from government officials being paid from our taxes?
- Why hasn't there been any communication with us the impacted stakeholders? If there are problems why doesn't IRCC and the government publicly communicate those?

The significant delay now does not pass the smell test. I urge anyone reading to decide for themselves what is going on here, what is appropriate and if there should be any accountability from IRCC.

Completely agree. They need to adapt. With govt debt skyrocketing, any new spending would face resistance. May be, they can start inviting people and ask those people to submit a negative COVID report from a test administered 24 hours before the citizenship test AND turn away people if they are showing symptoms on the test date. These require money and resources. With the current trajectory, wait time can be at the very least 24 months. As an applicant, we dont have much options other than writing to MPs asking for transparency.

 

[piotrqc]

As you might expect, a person came quickly to discourage us with random and generic arguments (I wouldn't please that person by saying their name or "quoting" "their message) ...

Imagine that this SAME person said at the beginning of the conversations of this thread said that the actions of the spousal sponsors will be useless, and that they will not get anything ....

Events have shown everyone that he was wrong. The spousal sponsors have obtained the resumption of the processing of their file in an accelerated manner AND exceptional authorizations for their husbands and wives to come to Canada despite the travel restrictions.

As I have in my very first post here:

Si vis pacem, para bellum

(is a Latin adage translated as "If you want peace, prepare for war".)

If we don't fight to make our cause a priority, of course they'll just ignore it and continue to enjoy the power of union code 699 + (Who will ask, believe me I know the middle unions and unions, a ratio of daily contaminated covid of zero: Which means years and years of waiting even after the hypotetic discovery of a vaccine) ... Human nature is so made, it is bad. The wonderful world of telletubies and teddy bears does not exist. Wake up.


Last thing. CONSERVATIVES HAVE ALREADY CHANGED IN THE PAST OF IMMIGRATION PROGRAMS IN A RETROACTIVE WAY BY RETURNING APPLICATIONS TO PEOPLE. IT'S ALREADY HAPPENED IN THE PAST.

I would add that the conservatives of O'toole, who are very to the right politically (I recall that he won the leadership of his party especially thanks to the support of the prolific and the pros-armed people ... Just imagine the position and resentment of this fringe of the population towards foreigners ... Just imagine). I predict they will change the requirements retroactively, and we will return our applications, without mercy. (Especially if they have the majority).


In short, all this to say that we will not remain a priority as long as people remain in the passivity ... But they will not have the choice to move, or at least to give an update if we make noise.

Fortunately, things are starting to get organized little by little and are going in this direction, but elsewhere, on social networks, not here (Links or promotions of this kind are unfortunately systematically deleted here).

Seems like people really took confidence in the gravity of the situation ... And I also hope that the favorable outcome of the spousal sponsorship action will eventually convince people that claiming something can be efficient and can work in a democracy like Canada.

Folks, let's keep ignoring counterproductive and negatives messages, and let's focus on the basics: Finding efficient ways to make things happen ...

Example: Have you contacted your local MP?

, Piotr.

 

[Interstellaraliens]

I don't see MP's doing anything either. I sent an email but got no response and heard from few others that they got generic response.

This link has a contact list for deputy ministers office for IRCC.
Perhaps calling them will make a difference instead of sending emails which I can see isn't really going anywhere.
http://www.goc411.ca/Employees/IndexByUnit/c=CA,o=GC,ou=IRCC-IRCC,ou=NHQ-AC,ou=DMO-DMO

 

[ott-613]

As I have mentioned before having citizenship will not make a large difference in people’s everyday lives for most so determining the urgency of restarting testing will need to be considered. If it won’t impact most people’s everyday lives is it worth the expense of setting up a new system or the risk of exposure of employees or test takers. I understand that people are anxious to receive their citizenship and am not dismissing this but how urgent processing is and whether it requires extra investment to ensure people receive citizenship as soon as possible is unclear.

You dont know that. For some people ‘like us’ it impact our day to day lives. I have lost 2 jobs interviews because of my current citizenship, employer cannot get you in writing that you are not accepted because they want canadian citizens. So justifying urgency is impossible.

As part of the employment screening survey they ask a question: are you a citizen of one of the following countries: .... and yes unfortunately iam ... hence im living hell in my current job trying to get better opportunity to my family.

everything need to adapt to the new normal. We cant classify what should adapt and what should not... workers are asked to work from home indefinitely! So? Put everything else on the hook?