Citizenship test: Collective action required, or expect endless delays, years. Example of the effective lobbyng of people awaiting spousal sponsorship
- Thread starter piotrqc
- Start date
The last observation is the one that looms very large in my view. The overriding key element that has been ignored, or to the extent not ignored it has been derided and mischaracterized, is distinguishing making-noise versus actually engaging in effective advocacy.
It makes zero sense to pursue activism that is counterproductive, that will alienate more than it persuades, that will divert the focus from what needs to be done to challenging or dismissing those who are advocating for action.
The frequent slurs so casually aimed at civil servants, for example, not only discourage many from supporting the cause but invite many to push back and challenge those engaging in the derision of IRCC personnel. Which tends to steer the subject away from what can and should be done. That's counterproductive.
In the meantime, Covid-19 has been here for the better part of a year and will be staying too much longer to simply suspend operations the law mandates the government to do. It is clearly time for the government to take concrete steps toward resuming all aspects of processing citizenship applications, with whatever accommodations are necessary to assure the safety of civil servants as well as clients.
How to encourage the government to take positive steps in the direction of getting done what the law mandates it get done, nonetheless, is not so easy.
Lots and lots and lots of examples above about how NOT to encourage the government to move more stridently in the right direction. Lots and lots of examples above about how to alienate more and influence fewer.
Along the way, the unfounded and unfair, and too often bullying manner in which those who express views not in concert with making-noise and flinging accusations are falsely accused, characterized as being discouraging or negative, or paid-operatives, or passive, reflects far more badly on those engaging in this than perhaps they realize. And also hurts the cause more than they realize or will acknowledge.
In the meantime, just for clarity, repeated calls to waive knowledge of Canada testing are literally futile. IRCC does NOT have the authority to do that. NO point arguing for something that cannot be done. And no, there is not the slightest prospect of Parliament changing the law so as to grant such power to IRCC. Not a chance.
hey man
is this true?
no movement even with the paper processing steps???? if that is true that would indeed be very depressing....
While all of us are trying to understand what is going on with IRCC and when they will disclose their plan on dealing with this here is another factual data point for us to consider.
Please refer to the link below, it is from IRCC/CIC website. The link includes communications during COVID from senior management to IRCC staff. The most recent is dated August 17th from this year. As you review, please note paragraph 3 which is also reproduced below. Reading this paragraph, it is obvious that most of the staff have been away from work and have not returned. In the paragraph the staff is being told that the “expectation” after back to school is that they will return to work. I am sure many have still not returned as COVID has been very stressful for many.
I can’t help but compare my situation to theirs, working extra hard to retain my private sector job, going through salary cuts and worrying that if I would even be employed tomorrow. And at a minimum I just want the department and these workers to be a little compassionate for many of us who have applied for citizenship and are going through all this stress and consider going back to their jobs, for which they are paid from our taxes and for this application for which we have paid a processing fee.
IRCC website is vague and is communicating that they are dealing with other items so processing times are delayed. The elephant in the room here is that many employees are still not back at work and that is why things are hardly moving. People have different views on this forum which should be respected. But I urge all of you to read the below, review all the facts and then decide if wait and see and not engaging with elected representatives is an option under this scenario.
https://www.cic.gc.ca/emp/msg/20200817c-eng.asp
“Now that the Public Health Agency of Canada has issued guidelines for kindergarten to grade 12 students, and we have heard from provinces about schooling situations across the country, the expectation is that employees who previously could not work due to childcare obligations may now be able to return to full-time hours.”
Please refer to the link below, it is from IRCC/CIC website. The link includes communications during COVID from senior management to IRCC staff. The most recent is dated August 17th from this year. As you review, please note paragraph 3 which is also reproduced below. Reading this paragraph, it is obvious that most of the staff have been away from work and have not returned. In the paragraph the staff is being told that the “expectation” after back to school is that they will return to work. I am sure many have still not returned as COVID has been very stressful for many.
I can’t help but compare my situation to theirs, working extra hard to retain my private sector job, going through salary cuts and worrying that if I would even be employed tomorrow. And at a minimum I just want the department and these workers to be a little compassionate for many of us who have applied for citizenship and are going through all this stress and consider going back to their jobs, for which they are paid from our taxes and for this application for which we have paid a processing fee.
IRCC website is vague and is communicating that they are dealing with other items so processing times are delayed. The elephant in the room here is that many employees are still not back at work and that is why things are hardly moving. People have different views on this forum which should be respected. But I urge all of you to read the below, review all the facts and then decide if wait and see and not engaging with elected representatives is an option under this scenario.
https://www.cic.gc.ca/emp/msg/20200817c-eng.asp
“Now that the Public Health Agency of Canada has issued guidelines for kindergarten to grade 12 students, and we have heard from provinces about schooling situations across the country, the expectation is that employees who previously could not work due to childcare obligations may now be able to return to full-time hours.”
You can be assured that they will not read impartially ... The arguments of some here are blinded by ideological considerations ... But they will never dare to say it clearly.
When it comes to the accusation that we are insulting IRCC CIC staff, that is something contemptuous of us. Nothing more.
The link you shared clearly shows that they have not returned to work, and continue to take advantage of code 699. That is to say to be paid with our taxes without doing anything.
Why is it insulting to say that federal employees take advantage of our taxes, we honest workers (and I'm not even talking about application fees now, only taxes), to relax quietly at home without doing anything using code 699 and the power of their union: This is the real insult! ... The users (us), as taxpayers, we have the right to claim to have the services in return for our taxes ... Or at least precise information on the terms of these services, that is is the least of it.
... To be a '' good person '' according to people taking up this ideology, we would have to work, be silent, and `` be happy to be here, and not to say anything This is what they want, but they will never say it clearly .... Intellectual honesty is what they lack.
I do not understand the logic: IRCC employees have the the right to be paid without working (This is the principle of code 699, I am not inventing anything), and if we discuss this, it is not correct, it's insulting ...
On the other hand, we who work in the private sector, or as independent workers, is it normal that we resume our normal professional lives, and we must also be silent?
It's not fair ... The lives of these employees are not worth more than those of people in the private or independent sector. This double-standard reasoning disgusts me ...
Let's be clear: @dpenabill does not defend the interests of IRCC CIC employees because it cares about their health, (safe distancing measures to resume citizenship tests are possible if they stop hiding behind the 699 code and their union), no.
I think he does it more for ideological reasons ... But he will never dare say it clearly.
Last edited:
Beaucoup d'hypocrites sont ici et ne seront pas assez courageux pour le reconnaître. Tu connais sûrement le proverbe "les chiens aboient la caravane passe".
We have to stop, I think, reading discouraging, negative, and hostile literature. It won't get us anywhere.
Two things to remember:
* We pay our taxes, and contribute to this society.
* The Canadian Charter of Rights and Values guarantees us the following:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/const/page-15.html
Fundamental Freedoms
Marginal note: Fundamental freedoms
2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.
** There is a third thing, but it's so indecent to talk about it ... We paid for the administrative service of citizenship.
For all these reasons, we can come to the conclusion that making noise, and demanding the resumption of citizenship services and tests by all possible and imaginable means is a legal, permitted, and even legitimate and necessary thing in view of the circumstances. ...
Passivity will only bring us two things:
- Years and years of delays because of the backlog.
- A serious and real risk that a majority conservative O'toole government sends us back our skins and changes the rules retroactively.
, Piotr.
Two things to remember:
* We pay our taxes, and contribute to this society.
* The Canadian Charter of Rights and Values guarantees us the following:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/const/page-15.html
Fundamental Freedoms
Marginal note: Fundamental freedoms
2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.
** There is a third thing, but it's so indecent to talk about it ... We paid for the administrative service of citizenship.
For all these reasons, we can come to the conclusion that making noise, and demanding the resumption of citizenship services and tests by all possible and imaginable means is a legal, permitted, and even legitimate and necessary thing in view of the circumstances. ...
Passivity will only bring us two things:
- Years and years of delays because of the backlog.
- A serious and real risk that a majority conservative O'toole government sends us back our skins and changes the rules retroactively.
, Piotr.
Last edited:
Let's be clear: the evidence of how devoted I have been to actually helping PRs and citizenship applicants is here, easily accessed by simply clicking on my profile and reading my posts . . . even a small sample amply shows the effort I have made to pay-forward the help I got in this and other similar forum more than a decade ago.
I make a concerted effort to sincerely and honestly share accurate and, most importantly (something that is absent from much if not most of the make-noise rhetoric here) USEFUL commentary and information.
And that looms large here. I fully support the effort to push IRCC to do what the law mandates. It is past time for it to get moving, making what accommodations it must to get processing moving ahead. Again, as the law mandates.
The extent to which counterproductive and negative noise-making has dominated this issue is what is truly discouraging. Turning to ad hominem accusations like this one aimed at me is dismaying and discouraging and tell-tale. It is malarkey.
And those who fail to recognize and acknowledge that engaging in such behavior hurts the cause are the ones most diminishing and undermining the cause. A problem, a handicap that most sincere activists face, the extent to which those claiming to be in favour of the cause by being loud and bullying HURT the effort to truly move things in a positive direction.
Come on man, attacking @dpenabill and ascribing motives to him is not fair.
He has always been extremely helpful to this community and advises to the best of his abilities.
I think people need to cool down here.
Agreed. This thread has become awful and extremely disrespectful to fellow posters. I won’t even go into the abuse hurled at the employees at the IRCC. Dpenabill has be helpful and concise in his replies. I hope he continues to post.
Yes, that's true. Over 50 GCMS Notes have seen no activity since March 15 till Oct 2020
Good morning everyone.
When this same person, at the beginning of the exchanges in this thread said that I "bought" my law degree, everyone had found it correct and nobody found anything to complain about ... Double standard ... It's just distressing.
I was not discussing the person, I never attacked him personally or personified ... I simply said that I find his determination to want to defend the 699 code, while considering the slightest criticism of this system (Not fair , to honest taxpayers like most people here) as an insult to those poor and kind and honest IRCC workers ... Wanting to maintain an unfair system and waste of public money (our money all) is so noble, the poor!
... (YES, I am ironic) ... I simply expressed an opinion, that the fact that it defends the code 699 and that It links its to the health and well-being of employees as a argument not honest, it is my impression, I expressed it with respect ...Did you just read their press release here?
http://psacunion.ca/legal-battle-begins-protect-use-699-leave-during
Stop saying I'm attacking the person, and just answer my arguments.
It is simply shameful ... There would even be a way to attack this provision of Code 699 in the federal court ... But of course, these are things that take courage (people are afraid that such actions impact their own citizenship applications), time, and a lot of money to find associations courageous enough to endorse the cause, lawyers specializing in labor law, constitutional law, etc .... And also, who is cares about foreign people, not yet voters, and often people from poor and disadvantaged social categories (This is a big subject, and not our subject here.)? Who ? ... On the contrary, this subject hatises hatred in general: Have you only read the negative comments by the hundreds in the CBC article which deals with our subject? ...
When our friend @hotshot45890 invited @dpenabill to take a look at this link: https://www.cic.gc.ca/emp/msg/20200817c-eng.asp , he totally eclipsed the subject and avoided talking about it. '' evoke the subject of the non-return to work of several employees, and rather chose to dwell on its past glories, to deflect the subject ...
I'm not saying his past is bad, he might be the nicest and kindest person in the world ... But on this specific subject (Code 699, and the unreasonable demands of the union and their impact on people ... Especially their legality or their morality) He avoids expressing himself, and does not seem to want to broach the subject ...
I have absolutely nothing from anyone against these employees, nor against the idea of a union. But the taxpayer's money and his defense is also important.
The Argument that: `` Employees fear for their health, and it's okay to support code 699 and get paid for doing nothing with public money ... What if you discuss that , you are insulting them '' is simply illogical, disrespectful. The employees in question, with respect, are no better than private and self-employed workers ... If the pandemic is so dangerous, and requires a general lockdown, we must impose the lockdown, and protect everyone ... Not categorizing workers, that doesn't make sense.
I am not against the principle of safety at work, it is even a sacred principle enshrined in law (For example in Quebec, it is the CNESST body, Commission des normes, de l'énergie, de la santé et of occupational safety which takes care of that.
https://www.cnesst.gouv.qc.ca/Pages/accueil.aspx
Having said that, it's shameful to bring up that when you have - I suppose - ideological ulterior motives.
Safety and health standards are valid for everyone. If the situation is so terrible, there should be a complete and total lockdown ... Otherwise we go back to work, respecting the recommendations of public health.
Please discuss the ideas.
All this to say that the current deadlock is unacceptable. And that protesting and making noise requires AT LEAST clarity and information on deadlines is the least.
I explored the subject a bit, thanks to the folks who provided us with the links ...
Even the Treasury Board of Canada found the process and logic of the 699 code indecent and incorrect, and initiated changes to the conditions for invoking it to avoid excesses.
Hence the union's legal action to keep the privilege of code 699 intact ...
Even the Treasury Board of Canada has had a little more decency and common sense and respect for public money, than some commentators here.
Changes made by the Treasury Board:
https://www.canada.ca/en/environment-climate-change/corporate/covid-19/pay-pension-benefits/taking-tracking-other-paid-leave-code-699.html
The first reaction of the union, dated June 4:
http://psacunion.ca/psac-defends-699-leave-covid-related-child-care
Even the Treasury Board of Canada found the process and logic of the 699 code indecent and incorrect, and initiated changes to the conditions for invoking it to avoid excesses.
Hence the union's legal action to keep the privilege of code 699 intact ...
Even the Treasury Board of Canada has had a little more decency and common sense and respect for public money, than some commentators here.
Changes made by the Treasury Board:
https://www.canada.ca/en/environment-climate-change/corporate/covid-19/pay-pension-benefits/taking-tracking-other-paid-leave-code-699.html
The first reaction of the union, dated June 4:
http://psacunion.ca/psac-defends-699-leave-covid-related-child-care
@dpenabill
You continue to not address the main arguments that are being brought up. You keep saying that we are being negative, when your definition of being negative is talking about the facts.
Fact of the matter is that these government workers are taking full advantage of this code that the union is clearly protecting. I am actually amazed because I often have dealt with government employees who are mad of people abusing the social welfare system. They do anything they can to avoid people from obtaining ei or disability income or anything to help their circumstances, yet here they are, now abusing this privilege given to them. It is Hypocrisy.
The right and ethical thing for them to do, the “positive” thing for them to do, would be to be transparent and clear with citizenship applicants about what they are doing to restore citizenship testing. Or to make it online for example.
I am disgusted with everything that has happened so far. Their silence is deafening and shows their complete lack of respect for immigrants. Not to mention their complete lack of respect for working Canadians in the private sector. All of this is disgusting.
You continue to not address the main arguments that are being brought up. You keep saying that we are being negative, when your definition of being negative is talking about the facts.
Fact of the matter is that these government workers are taking full advantage of this code that the union is clearly protecting. I am actually amazed because I often have dealt with government employees who are mad of people abusing the social welfare system. They do anything they can to avoid people from obtaining ei or disability income or anything to help their circumstances, yet here they are, now abusing this privilege given to them. It is Hypocrisy.
The right and ethical thing for them to do, the “positive” thing for them to do, would be to be transparent and clear with citizenship applicants about what they are doing to restore citizenship testing. Or to make it online for example.
I am disgusted with everything that has happened so far. Their silence is deafening and shows their complete lack of respect for immigrants. Not to mention their complete lack of respect for working Canadians in the private sector. All of this is disgusting.
Last edited: