Citizenship test: Collective action required, or expect endless delays, years. Example of the effective lobbyng of people awaiting spousal sponsorship

[armoured]

With all respect to all the lengthy legal arguments flying around in this thread.
This issue is more political than legal. Immigration is more of a political issue than a legal issue.
...
Whatever the reasons, it is legitimate to ask the government to implement changes to streamline citizenship application.

I agree, it is primarily a political issue.

And tried to emphasize that the point of a legal case - which will be fraught, and expensive, and slow - is more political than legal. In that a well-crafted attempt can raise the profile considerably.

That said, I wouldn't write off the possibility of some legal success entirely - but it does need to at least make some sense.

A note on streamlining: it is or can be problematic to make specific suggestions as to _how_ it should be streamlined. There are legal and other issues that constrain the government somewhat. The focus should just be on saying the government is responsible, and surely there are ways to streamline that can be effective. (Everybody else is doing things online, including parliament)

 

[prash42]

Well said. Political pressure is the way to do it, and even legal options are more about raising political pressure on IRCC to act, than actually getting courts to rule in our favor.

Large parts of the economy are being forced to adapt, including many that are far more frontline than IRCC. The practical, procedural and legal excuses of IRCC (and those that defend IRCC) have turned pretty stale. And this argument about Canada being a wonderful country is 100% correct, but also 100% irrelevant. Canada the country, as an idea, and as a nation state, is a beacon of light. But it does nothing to justify IRCC's lethargy.

With all respect to all the lengthy legal arguments flying around in this thread.
This issue is more political than legal. Immigration is more of a political issue than a legal issue.
Immigration laws passed by elected officials, not by judges whose job is just to interpret the laws.
So pressure on elected officials to find solutions to the citizenship backlog is the solution.
It is not an impossible task, tests can be online, IRCC agents can work remotely, etc.

Some of these solutions are already implemented by IRCC for PR card renewals and Family sponsorships and it reduced the backlog.
The government did these changes after pressure from applicants, complaints in the media, applicants sending letters to MPs, etc.
I will not enter into the argument that IRCC was going to implement changes anyway without pressure and applicants' protests are useless.
There is more than enough evidence to support that advocacy works and influence changes.
I am a believer that most desirable reforms do not usually happen spontaneously.

Another issue people are raising is why many applicants are anxious and impatient for citizenship.
There many reasons, not legal reasons, more psychological and practical reasons.
Many are worried that the government could change and make citizenship requirements more strict.
That is not an unreasonable worry, considering that this already happened in 2014 by the conservatives.
Others worry that they will need to leave Canada for personnel or work reasons and prefer to secure their citizenship.
Some people would like to feel secure with citizenship and enjoy the right to vote and have a say in this country.

Whatever the reasons, it is legitimate to ask the government to implement changes to streamline citizenship application.
Yes, it is not as a priority as eradicating COVID or supporting failing businesses or any of the other hundred things needed.
However, the immigration minister and IRCC are not manning hospitals or manufacturing vaccines and
after almost 9 months of the crisis, it should be time to handle this issue.

At last, I appreciate IRCC's work, but like any organization, they are not infallible.
I am surprised that after being away for months from this forum that there are still people here
defending the IRCC performance zealously and arguing against any organized action to pressure for reform.
The PR department in IRCC should come here for recruiting

 

[deadbird]

To play devil's advocate. It occurred to me that one possible reason why IRCC is dragging its feet in implementing an online test is that it's a "one-off" work item.

After the vaccine is widely available, maybe in late 2021 or 2022, in-person tests could resume. This "one off" online test would not be needed after that, and the money and time spent on it would be useless. Of course by then the backlog would balloon and applicants from 2019 - 2023 would see long processing times. But the impact and fallout is limited to candidates from 2019 - 2023 and therefore the will to get it done could be limited. It's government bureaucracy after all, everything moves slowly.

Just imagine a conversation between an IRCC web developer and their manager:

Manager: "You need to implement an online citizenship test and make sure it is secure and well tested."
Web developer: "But why? isn't the vaccine out?"
Manager: "There's a growing backlog and people are protesting outside the parliament building."
Web developer: "Can't they just wait?. We'll probably resume in-person tests in a year or two"
Manager: "Just get it done. How long will it take?"
Web developer: "I don't know. Maybe a couple of months."
.... many months pass
Manager: "Is it done? I got a call from the immigration minister today"
Web developer: "Yeah we have something but there are some security concerns. Our data integrity engineer is out on leave due to the pandemic."
....many more months pass
Web developer: "Hey Mr Pointy-haired. Do we still need the test? I heard they started giving out the first vaccine doses in Toronto."
Manager: "Nah, it's ok. We need to prioritize processing the first batch of Hong Kong applicants, the program is extremely delayed."

 

[piotrqc]

A testimonial from someone who contacted IRCC recently, found in the advocacy group ''Advocates for Resumption of Canadian Citizenship Test'':

https://www.zupimages.net/up/20/48/7sps.jpg

It seems that we are heading irreparably towards collective legal action (Class action) ... They will force us to do so, i fear ... (Unless the demonstration on Saturday, November 28, in Ottawa in front of the parliament give something) ... But we need to take a serious look.

From what I know, a few people have already started to consult lawyers ...

 

[EUK]

https://www2.gnb.ca/content/gnb/en/news/news_release.2020.11.0632.html?fbclid=IwAR3A9TRrwhqtrBwVNVaC2CBzHxKb4r2CMMHwnyO_usalSKTSlud85IZ7kW4

Online driving (knowledge) test in Canada!

The software uses the applicant’s web browser and camera to take a photo of the candidate at the beginning of the test for identification purposes. Snapshots of the applicant are taken randomly throughout the test to ensure the same person is taking the test, and that they are not getting help from another person or any other source.

Each candidate has 30 minutes to complete the multiple-choice tests. The system automatically marks the test and the results are sent by email.

 

[canuck78]

https://www2.gnb.ca/content/gnb/en/news/news_release.2020.11.0632.html?fbclid=IwAR3A9TRrwhqtrBwVNVaC2CBzHxKb4r2CMMHwnyO_usalSKTSlud85IZ7kW4

Online driving (knowledge) test in Canada!

The software uses the applicant’s web browser and camera to take a photo of the candidate at the beginning of the test for identification purposes. Snapshots of the applicant are taken randomly throughout the test to ensure the same person is taking the test, and that they are not getting help from another person or any other source.

Each candidate has 30 minutes to complete the multiple-choice tests. The system automatically marks the test and the results are sent by email.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/ubc-cheating-midterm-math-100-1.5814234

If people doubt that online testing comes with huge risk of cheating. Just one example of what I am sure are many online cheating scandals this year.

 

[canuck78]

With all respect to all the lengthy legal arguments flying around in this thread.
This issue is more political than legal. Immigration is more of a political issue than a legal issue.
Immigration laws passed by elected officials, not by judges whose job is just to interpret the laws.
So pressure on elected officials to find solutions to the citizenship backlog is the solution.
It is not an impossible task, tests can be online, IRCC agents can work remotely, etc.

Some of these solutions are already implemented by IRCC for PR card renewals and Family sponsorships and it reduced the backlog.
The government did these changes after pressure from applicants, complaints in the media, applicants sending letters to MPs, etc.
I will not enter into the argument that IRCC was going to implement changes anyway without pressure and applicants' protests are useless.
There is more than enough evidence to support that advocacy works and influence changes.
I am a believer that most desirable reforms do not usually happen spontaneously.

Another issue people are raising is why many applicants are anxious and impatient for citizenship.
There many reasons, not legal reasons, more psychological and practical reasons.
Many are worried that the government could change and make citizenship requirements more strict.
That is not an unreasonable worry, considering that this already happened in 2014 by the conservatives.
Others worry that they will need to leave Canada for personnel or work reasons and prefer to secure their citizenship.
Some people would like to feel secure with citizenship and enjoy the right to vote and have a say in this country.

Whatever the reasons, it is legitimate to ask the government to implement changes to streamline citizenship application.
Yes, it is not as a priority as eradicating COVID or supporting failing businesses or any of the other hundred things needed.
However, the immigration minister and IRCC are not manning hospitals or manufacturing vaccines and
after almost 9 months of the crisis, it should be time to handle this issue.

At last, I appreciate IRCC's work, but like any organization, they are not infallible.
I am surprised that after being away for months from this forum that there are still people here
defending the IRCC performance zealously and arguing against any organized action to pressure for reform.
The PR department in IRCC should come here for recruiting

There would be no way that those waiting for testing will be affected if there are any potential changes to citizenship requirements in the future. You'd be grandfathered and it takes over a year to get through the various levels of government plus it is unlikely that the Liberals would change the citizenship requirements so you also need an election to be called.

 

[piotrqc]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/ubc-cheating-midterm-math-100-1.5814234

If people doubt that online testing comes with huge risk of cheating. Just one example of what I am sure are many online cheating scandals this year.

They must therefore innovate and find a solution. We can't just wait and grow the endless backlog ... Why not get positive, and talk about the example of the New Brunswick province's online driver's license test, and the new monitoring techniques that 'it contains, for example? ... Why not talk about the Australian example who have already introduced online citizenship tests?

Looks like you are trying everything you can to be negative.

There would be no way that those waiting for testing will be affected if there are any potential changes to citizenship requirements in the future. You'd be grandfathered and it takes over a year to get through the various levels of government plus it is unlikely that the Liberals would change the citizenship requirements so you also need an election to be called.

Do you know who you call me back? ... the violinists on the Titanic who continued to play as the ship sank in the ocean.

You are an excellent advocate for IRCC employees, as well as being a demoralizer for us. Of course, it's easy to play this role (Devil's Advocate) when you're not even directly concerned ...

Here are simple and obvious arguments that demonstrate that your arguments are just a symphony in trying to calm things down and discourage people from doing something before the shipwreck:

* The Conservatives have already in the past canceled files, and retroactively changed the rules of immigration programs (by making them more difficult, of course). The precedents exist at the federal level, and in Quebec as well.

* We will have no "acquired rights", as I said precedents exist (Files have been canceled, returned, and the new law applied retroactively). I would add that the principle of "non-retroactivity of laws" does not exist in Canadian law, and is not clearly stated anywhere. We will therefore have no protection against cancellations + return of envelopes + retroactive changes. (More severe obviously, the wonderful world of Telletubies with nice teddy bears and happy endings does not exist in reality).

* Who tells you that it takes more than a year at the different levels to apply a change, is this a quantified criterion written into the regulations, how do you know? ... And to assume that it is true, who tells you that we have this year before any changes occur? ... The Union of Federal Employees is doing everything possible to extend the deadlines, no one still knows the outcome of the legal actions they took to restore vacancy code 699 ... It is also a serious risk to consider. (Of course, their action does not suspend the resumption imposed by the secretariat of the Treasury Board of Canada effective since November 9, and which had been imposed to limit abuses of public funds ... But we do not is not immune to a turnaround at any time) ...

Should we wisely wait for the boat to sink without reacting as the backlog continues to grow day by day? What do you suggest? Be frank and direct. What are your suggestions?

* Who said that the Liberals will make these changes? ... You are good with misleading phrases: Let's be clear, if there is anything to fear, it is a majority conservative government.

I remind you that the liberals are currently in the minority ... And that NEVER a minority government in the past has finished its electoral period until the end, it risks falling at any time.

I also remind you that there will be a vote of confidence no later than spring 2021, so in just a few months.

The opponents of the current government will surely not hesitate to recall the scandal of We Charity and the other cases to bring down the minority liberal government ... There is a real and serious risk that this will happen. It is therefore normal to be anxious and preoccupied ...

Election Canada has already been preparing for this serious eventuality since last August!

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1729578/election-federale-coronavirus

 

[EUK]

They must therefore innovate and find a solution. We can't just wait and grow the endless backlog ... Why not get positive, and talk about the example of the New Brunswick province's online driver's license test, and the new monitoring techniques that 'it contains, for example? ... Why not talk about the Australian example who have already introduced online citizenship tests?

Looks like you are trying everything you can to be negative.



Do you know who you call me back? ... the violinists on the Titanic who continued to play as the ship sank in the ocean.

You are an excellent advocate for IRCC employees, as well as being a demoralizer for us. Of course, it's easy to play this role (Devil's Advocate) when you're not even directly concerned ...

Here are simple and obvious arguments that demonstrate that your arguments are just a symphony in trying to calm things down and discourage people before the shipwreck:

* The Conservatives have already in the past canceled files, and retroactively changed the rules of immigration programs (by making them more difficult, of course). The precedents exist at the federal level, and in Quebec as well.

* We will have no "acquired rights", as I said precedents exist (Files have been canceled, returned, and the new law applied retroactively). I would add that the principle of "non-retroactivity of laws" does not exist in Canadian law, and is not clearly stated anywhere. We will therefore have no protection against cancellations + return of envelopes + retroactive changes. (More severe obviously, the wonderful world of Telletubies with nice teddy bears and happy endings does not exist in reality).

* Who tells you that it takes more than a year at the different levels to apply a change, is this a quantified criterion written into the regulations, how do you know? ... And to assume that it is true, who tells you that we have this year before any changes occur? ... The Union of Federal Employees is doing everything possible to extend the deadlines, no one still knows the outcome of the legal actions they took to restore vacancy code 699 ... It is also a serious risk to consider. (Of course, their action does not suspend the resumption imposed by the secretariat of the Treasury Board of Canada effective since November 9, and which had been imposed to limit abuses of public funds ... But we do not is not immune to a turnaround at any time) ...

Should we wisely wait for the boat to sink without reacting as the backlog continues to grow day by day? What do you suggest? Be frank and direct. What are your suggestions?

* Who said that the Liberals will make these changes? ... You are good with misleading phrases: Let's be clear, if there is anything to fear, it is a majority conservative government.

I remind you that the liberals are currently in the minority ... And that NEVER a minority government in the past has finished its electoral period until the end, it risks falling at any time.

I also remind you that there will be a vote of confidence no later than spring 2021, so in just a few months.

The opponents of the current government will surely not hesitate to recall the scandal of We Charity and the other cases to bring down the minority liberal government ... There is a real and serious risk that this will happen. It is therefore normal to be anxious and preoccupied ...

Election Canada has already been preparing for this serious eventuality since last August!

It seems even if the test is conducted in person, some people will still be concerned about cheating!!!

 

[piotrqc]

It seems even if the test is conducted in person, some people will still be concerned about cheating!!!

Really? ... At this level their real concerns are questionable ... Maybe their real motivation is not cheating, but simply an ad vitam æternam (indefinite) stop of the citizenship procedures, de facto.

 

[rafzy]

Really? ... At this level their real concerns are questionable ... Maybe their real motivation is not cheating, but simply an ad vitam æternam (indefinite) stop of the citizenship procedures, de facto.

What I can think is there motivation Is simply to keep there jobs ... people walking in halls across Canada when people are taking tests which is exactly how the people working in union

 

[armoured]

They must therefore innovate and find a solution. We can't just wait and grow the endless backlog ... Why not get positive, and talk about the example of the New Brunswick province's online driver's license test, and the new monitoring techniques that 'it contains, for example? ... Why not talk about the Australian example who have already introduced online citizenship tests?

Looks like you are trying everything you can to be negative.
...
You are an excellent advocate for IRCC employees, as well as being a demoralizer for us. Of course, it's easy to play this role (Devil's Advocate) when you're not even directly concerned ...

Please take things less personally and stop accusing others of acting on behalf of others e.g. IRCC employees.

It comes across as petulant. If your arguments cannot withstand even the slightest questioning and provoke such tantrums in response, it gives the appearance they are very poor arguments indeed.

Your time would be better spent on actual campaigning rather than maligning those who see things differently from you.

Use the opportunity to instead come up with decent, measured responses. In this case, for example: sure, some institutions have had some cheating issues. But government allows the public to file taxes, apply for visas, and a score of other potentially risky procedures with valid security concerns. Since citizenship is important, it is the government's responsibility to find a solution that meets valid and reasonable security concerns.

 

[armoured]

What I can think is there motivation Is simply to keep there jobs ... people walking in halls across Canada when people are taking tests which is exactly how the people working in union

What possible benefit do you think attacking government employees repeatedly is going to bring to your political effort to get the government to find a solution?

Think about it. How is this going to help your cause?

 

[rafzy]

What possible benefit do you think attacking government employees repeatedly is going to bring to your political effort to get the government to find a solution?

Think about it. How is this going to help your cause?

It is not attacking the government. It is simply how unions work as they would simply refuse to work for lame reasons which eventually affects everyone applying for citizenship.

 

[armoured]

It is not attacking the government. It is simply how unions work as they would simply refuse to work for lame reasons which eventually affects everyone applying for citizenship.

I didn't say it was attacking the government, it is attacking government employees.

It certainly sounds like attacking government employees to say they refuse to work and implying they are lazy and that it is their fault.

It is the government's responsibilty to manage their employees - I don't see a benefit to this cause to getting involved in that. Nor how it will help the case here to make such points to broader public.

Focus on the goal: government should improve the citizenship process. Applicants don't care whether they do this by firing them all or hiring more or bringing in the army. (Or the minister doing the work himself by hand)

You just want the problem solved.