Citizenship test: Collective action required, or expect endless delays, years. Example of the effective lobbyng of people awaiting spousal sponsorship

[AshesNdust]

How much hate do some people have for the immigrants?
After 7 hrs of CBC posted this video on YouTube, I saw 1k+ dislikes and hundreds of stupid comments.

It’s disheartening, but don’t think it represents the majority of people in Canada. After read a chunk of the comments, a lot of them just don’t think it’s as important as the pandemic that’s happening right now. Doing any kind of public protest isn’t going over well right now, not just immigration ones.
We still should continue to write and call local government officials. Sending tweets is another good way. The idea is, is that we need to continue to put pressure and attention on the government, but in a way that Canadians will support. Right now, we are in a second wave of the virus and any suggestion of doing something that requires a physical presence is just not going to be well received.

 

[siddharthbala]

It’s disheartening, but don’t think it represents the majority of people in Canada. After read a chunk of the comments, a lot of them just don’t think it’s as important as the pandemic that’s happening right now. Doing any kind of public protest isn’t going over well right now, not just immigration ones.
We still should continue to write and call local government officials. Sending tweets is another good way. The idea is, is that we need to continue to put pressure and attention on the government, but in a way that Canadians will support. Right now, we are in a second wave of the virus and any suggestion of doing something that requires a physical presence is just not going to be well received.

They are Youtube comments - of course they'll be a flaming dumpster fire. It's one of the laws of the internet.

The majority of them echo your point in that it's bad optics to be doing protests in an environment where social distancing and isolation are critical to getting those numbers down. I've written to all the MPPs I can and, of course, have received diplomatic non-responses from most. I think the IRCC steam train is slowly moving forward, only time will tell how they intend to plow through the rest of this steadily growing backlog.

 

[deadbird]

How much hate do some people have for the immigrants?
After 7 hrs of CBC posted this video on YouTube, I saw 1k+ dislikes and hundreds of stupid comments.

It's important to clarify the strategy of increased media coverage. The objective of media coverage is not to win the hearts and minds of the internet masses. Many of them are likely not even Canadian and could even be Russian bots. The objective instead is to hold the current administration accountable. The liberal government holds immigration to be a social and moral priority. Their inaction with regard to citizenship tests amounts to neglect of their self-defined priorities.

Media coverage is there to shine a light on this seemingly acute cognitive dissonance. Basically guilt the government into standing by its professed morals.

The target is government shame and not public opinion.

 

[piotrqc]

It's important to clarify the strategy of increased media coverage. The objective of media coverage is not to win the hearts and minds of the internet masses. Many of them are likely not even Canadian and could even be Russian bots. The objective instead is to hold the current administration accountable. The liberal government holds immigration to be a social and moral priority. Their inaction with regard to citizenship tests amounts to neglect of their self-defined priorities.

Media coverage is there to shine a light on this seemingly acute cognitive dissonance. Basically guilt the government into standing by its professed morals.

The target is government shame and not public opinion.

Well, let's escalate that feeling of guilt a bit more by keeping the pressure on and making more noise ... Now that the media coverage is here, if the organizers announce a new date for demonstrations, it is almost certain that there will be 'will have more people than the first time. I have said what I think to the organizers, and I am doing my best to convince them that the sooner the better (especially with the coming cold ...). Adding Ottawa to Toront and Montreal as the locations for simultaneous demonstrations might also be a good idea, and strategic. The place will certainly be in front of the parliament.

I agree that we should ignore racist comments on youtube and elsewhere, stay focused on our goal, and ignore virtual trolls.

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

 

[BOYX]

It’s disheartening, but don’t think it represents the majority of people in Canada. After read a chunk of the comments, a lot of them just don’t think it’s as important as the pandemic that’s happening right now. Doing any kind of public protest isn’t going over well right now, not just immigration ones.
We still should continue to write and call local government officials. Sending tweets is another good way. The idea is, is that we need to continue to put pressure and attention on the government, but in a way that Canadians will support. Right now, we are in a second wave of the virus and any suggestion of doing something that requires a physical presence is just not going to be well received.

Well said. Protests aren’t well received right now at all. Even with the BLM protests, the same was said.

Further, I’ve personally noticed, that the majority of CBC YouTube videos have dislikes AND/OR negative comments. This is often irrespective of the content. I reckon these videos attract a certain type of people.

With that said, the point of the demonstrations wasn’t to enlist people to our cause. The point was to apply media pressure on IRCC.

 

[Wash an]

Looks like Liberals will make a lot of new Canadians angry with their non action.

 

[Aa. Arv]

It is not something complex, these argues and stresses are only about 20 multiple choice questions that doesn't differ if it is in person or virtual.

 

[AshesNdust]

Well said. Protests aren’t well received right now at all. Even with the BLM protests, the same was said.

Further, I’ve personally noticed, that the majority of CBC YouTube videos have dislikes AND/OR negative comments. This is often irrespective of the content. I reckon these videos attract a certain type of people.

With that said, the point of the demonstrations wasn’t to enlist people to our cause. The point was to apply media pressure on IRCC.

The problem is, we need voters, at the very least, not to go against us. That is what puts pressure on the politicians. The IRCC follows what the politicians dictates to them.
I think it would be a mistake not to take this into account. The UK and the US are prime examples of how the anti-immigration politicians take power when the voting population gets upset with immigration policy. I’m hoping Canada doesn’t ever push in this direction.

 

[piotrqc]

It is not something complex, these argues and stresses are only about 20 multiple choice questions that doesn't differ if it is in person or virtual.

Exactly ... And we must coordinate our efforts to make them understand. Again and again, as many times as necessary - We are totally within our rights, the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms guarantees it to us, end of the story - We will do demonstrations, as much as necessary. We must not let go ... The spousal sponsors are the best example for us.

We are not asking for something exceptional, just that they complete an administrative procedure ... It can be done in person with respect for sanitary rules, or online will be better ...

We are not asking for the moon, as the French expression says.

All government services have resumed (Service Canada, provincial driver's license office, local employment office, etc.). Not to mention open schools.

IRCC employees are paid by our taxes ... There is no excuse to give them, even the treasury board is on our side, and has issued a call to order by tightening the terms of use of vacancy code 699 to avoid abuse ...

Have no fear, we are not in a third world country here. Canada is a democratic country, and human rights - including the right to speak out and demonstrate - are guaranteed ...

No police officer will hit you with a baton, and no bureaucrat can take revenge on you.

... It is all the same discouraging to arrive there to ask for something so elementary ...

And for the '' opponents '', don't come and tell us that you fear for the health of IRCC employees ... No one is saying the opposite, we are all for a safe resumption of services ...

Unless these opponents also demand a total shutdown of all provincial and federal administrative services, there is no consistency in their remarks, and one can even legitimately doubt their intentions.

, Piotr.

 

[deadbird]

The problem is, we need voters, at the very least, not to go against us. That is what puts pressure on the politicians. The IRCC follows what the politicians dictates to them.
I think it would be a mistake not to take this into account. The UK and the US are prime examples of how the anti-immigration politicians take power when the voting population gets upset with immigration policy. I’m hoping Canada doesn’t ever push in this direction.

You have a point. But here are some counterpoints:

- Politicians also bow to public embarrassment and ridicule. If they are no longer able to take the moral high-ground, it affects their leverage in parliament and invites criticism from the opposition. E.g. Trudeau lost his "woke" label when multiple scandals such as black-face came out.
- New citizens are new voters. Don't they want their votes? or to put it another way, don't they want to avoid their anger, since current PRs will become citizens at some point in the future and they will have pure hate for the liberal inaction.
- Also, in our current hyper-polarized political environment, whether the US or Canada, those with anti-immigrant sentiment will stay that way. There's hardly any swing voters left. As evidenced by nearly half the USA voting for trump despite a quarter million Americans dead due to mismanagement by the Trump administration.
- Finally, the debate around resuming citizenship tests is just so silly to begin with. How hard is to administer an online test with 20 questions? Seriously!

 

[Flandernss]

What is the relation of code 699 and interruption of tests, really?

These problems seem only marginally related.

 

[AshesNdust]

You have a point. But here are some counterpoints:

- Politicians also bow to public embarrassment and ridicule. If they are no longer able to take the moral high-ground, it affects their leverage in parliament and invites criticism from the opposition. E.g. Trudeau lost his "woke" label when multiple scandals such as black-face came out.
- New citizens are new voters. Don't they want their votes? or to put it another way, don't they want to avoid their anger, since current PRs will become citizens at some point in the future and they will have pure hate for the liberal inaction.
- Also, in our current hyper-polarized political environment, whether the US or Canada, those with anti-immigrant sentiment will stay that way. There's hardly any swing voters left. As evidenced by nearly half the USA voting for trump despite a quarter million Americans dead due to mismanagement by the Trump administration.
- Finally, the debate around resuming citizenship tests is just so silly to begin with. How hard is to administer an online test with 20 questions? Seriously!

I think the main problem is that the politicians won’t view us protesting as an embarrassment. I 100% agree with your point about new citizens equal new voters, that’s why I think inundating them with emails and letters is a good method. It lets them know how many new voters they can snag and not alienate the current voters.
I do think the anti-immigration sentiment is a bit more complex than just a bunch of xenophobes who will always be xenophobic. At least, that’s what is happening in the US. The majority aren’t anti-immigrant overall, but do want safe guards for some very real problems immigration has caused in their communities. Unfortunately, a lot of reasonable questions people asked were lumped in with racists. Those people felt their only option to be heard was turning to the crazy guy that the US is finally going to throw out of office. It’s shocking how many people are single issue voters. So, there are still a ton of swing voters out there, it’s how Trump got in there in the first place.
Completely agree about the online testing! I get they need to make it secure, but come on! People on this forum have come up with ideas for that, so I find it hard to believe no one over there hasn’t. They should be able to give an update on it. I’m wondering if they couldn’t get the budget to do it or if they did and the software was too buggy. I would also like to know if there was a security clearance issue that prevented them from using a third party software option. At this point, even a “Hey people, we messed up, and it looks like it’s going to take another 3 months for tests to start again“ would be better than the radio silence we’ve been getting.

 

[BOYX]

What is the relation of code 699 and interruption of tests, really?

These problems seem only marginally related.

Yeah they are. I believe it’s very murky terrain to traverse when saying IRCC workers should come back to work and administer in person tests. Quite a controversial point.


What isn’t controversial, however, is the implementation of online testing. This request is totally reasonable and there is no good reason for it not being instated. If professional licensing boards, universities and schools can implement online testing for extremely complicated and significantly more important exams, then what is so special about an idiot-proof 20 question knowledge test that 80% of the applicants pass. This 80% is without the re-testing; overall, 98% of Citizenship applications get approved.

It’s not like we’re risking national security because a question on the number of provinces in Canada was cheated on. Regardless, by the time a person has been invited for the test, they have passed through many stages of verification that all indicate the person is safe. These stages are not including the many more stages of verification when the person initially applied to become a PR.

I’m honestly appalled that an irrelevant aspect of the citizenship application is preventing so many from becoming Citizens. It’s very crazy when you take a moment to think about it lol

 

[deadbird]

I think the main problem is that the politicians won’t view us protesting as an embarrassment. I 100% agree with your point about new citizens equal new voters, that’s why I think inundating them with emails and letters is a good method. It lets them know how many new voters they can snag and not alienate the current voters.
I do think the anti-immigration sentiment is a bit more complex than just a bunch of xenophobes who will always be xenophobic. At least, that’s what is happening in the US. The majority aren’t anti-immigrant overall, but do want safe guards for some very real problems immigration has caused in their communities. Unfortunately, a lot of reasonable questions people asked were lumped in with racists. Those people felt their only option to be heard was turning to the crazy guy that the US is finally going to throw out of office. It’s shocking how many people are single issue voters. So, there are still a ton of swing voters out there, it’s how Trump got in there in the first place.
Completely agree about the online testing! I get they need to make it secure, but come on! People on this forum have come up with ideas for that, so I find it hard to believe no one over there hasn’t. They should be able to give an update on it. I’m wondering if they couldn’t get the budget to do it or if they did and the software was too buggy. I would also like to know if there was a security clearance issue that prevented them from using a third party software option. At this point, even a “Hey people, we messed up, and it looks like it’s going to take another 3 months for tests to start again“ would be better than the radio silence we’ve been getting.

Several good points! I appreciate your observation that there might be single issue voters who gravitate towards one candidate usually the racist one.
Also, agree that transparency from the government and a firm timeline on restarting tests would dispel a lot of the angst that people are feeling.

Regarding citizenship delays not being an embarrassment. It depends on how it is framed. For e.g. the following framings are deeply embarrasing:

If schools can do it, why can't IRCC?

How hard is it to make an online test with 20 questions? Does the IRCC need web developers ? I volunteer..

Over 200,000+ Canadian residents eligible but not allowed to vote! Democracy at risk!

Over 200,000+ Canadian residents disenfranchised. That's greater than entire population of Nunavut, NWT and Yukon combined! (shocking!)

etc...

 

[BOYX]

Several good points! I appreciate your observation that there might be single issue voters who gravitate towards one candidate usually the racist one.
Also, agree that transparency from the government and a firm timeline on restarting tests would dispel a lot of the angst that people are feeling.

Regarding citizenship delays not being an embarrassment. It depends on how it is framed. For e.g. the following framings are deeply embarrasing:

If schools can do it, why can't IRCC?

How hard is it to make an online test with 20 questions? Does the IRCC need web developers ? I volunteer..

Over 200,000+ Canadian residents eligible but not allowed to vote! Democracy at risk!

Over 200,000+ Canadian residents disenfranchised. That's greater than entire population of Nunavut, NWT and Yukon combined! (shocking!)

etc...

Yes I agree, the presentation of the issue is crucial.