Canadian Experience​ - a systemic unfair employment barrier to new comers

[on-hold]

In this argument I tend to agree with Senorita Bella, that there are very small, non-professional factors that affect whether one gets a job or not. I've had one or two job interviews where I had strong opinions about what I would do and what would make sense, how that would fit with the organization, and the interview itself was more of a discussion than a quiz: I got those jobs, and I've always found myself working with other highly-qualified, useful immigrants. I've also applied for a LOT of positions where I was formally qualified, but had a hard time imagining what I would actually do on the first day, or why -- if I'd been hired I would have learned quickly, but I usually wasn't.

It's hard to go into an interview, even a position you're well qualified for, with that degree of confidence; the fact is, many immigrants are desperate, and this can affect the tenor of the interview as well. On this board I often suggest that people come to Alberta -- but 250,000 immigrants a year can't do that, it's not a panacea.

That said, here is a new study that paints a much grimmer picture of how recent immigrants are faring: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/two-year-study-paints-tough-picture-for-new-canadians/article14979853/

And another report suggests that Canada's 'skills gap' is not as huge as its always hyped (personally, I believe this but I don't know much about it): http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/report-refutes-claims-of-canadian-labour-shortages/article14973638/

 

[Rossei]

So let's not just be doom and gloom here, let's share encouraging stories too. For those still struggling to find work, try new approaches to your job search and I pray it things work out well for us all.

I couldn't agree more.

I came to Canada to do my undergrad and yet I faced some difficulties to find a co-op placement in 1st year. Though I was among top 5 of the class; I wasn't getting any interview calls. Then I found out that my resume isn't rich with "Canadian experience". Believe me when I say that even co-op employers look for job experience within Canada. Anyway, I started to look for any campus job opportunity. Nothing fruitful as uWindsor campus jobs were all taken by Indians though their own contacts and connections. I decided to do volunteer for a CIP program which finally fed me a campus job. And eventually, I got my first co-op placement. The rest is history as I finished my UG with 4 co-op terms, full-time offer from 2 companies by the time I graduated (I chose one of them where I work now).

From my story, you can find some tips how to overcome this so called barrier "Canadian Experience":
[1] Go for volunteering/unpaid service
[2] Prepare for any post-grad studies or similar with co-op/intern options
[3] Do all certification/accreditation
[4] Familiarize with Canadian style/format of resume/ cover letter/ thank you letter/ references/ portfolio and update them frequently
[5] When applying for specific job, do extensive research on the employer, your role & responsibilities. For each job, you may have to modify your resume/ cover letter.
[6] If you get an interview call, it means you'll get same chance as any other Canadians will have. So, you have to prove yourself worthy for the company. Take mock interviews, sit in front of a mirror and see how you look while talking, do everything that you can to look/act/behave your best.

I've written so many times re: interview tips, co-op and resume in this forum. I don't want to bring them over again here.

 

[maxvol]

The Canadian experience is definitely a barrier to newcomers, Its like hitting two birds with one stone. 1) You are not welcome cause you are a new immigrant 2) Polite way of saying we hire people who are "Canadianized"

Its a very similar practice the Nazi's used to do with the Jews in order to socially exclude them from the rest of mainstream Germans. Subtle at first and once it gathers enough momentum and be accepted as the norm by the majority then down right massacre baby!

So I am really not surprised this is happening but in a more polite/subtle/nice friendly way

 

[on-hold]

I couldn't agree more.

I came to Canada to do my undergrad and yet I faced some difficulties to find a co-op placement in 1st year. Though I was among top 5 of the class; I wasn't getting any interview calls. Then I found out that my resume isn't rich with "Canadian experience". Believe me when I say that even co-op employers look for job experience within Canada. Anyway, I started to look for any campus job opportunity. Nothing fruitful as uWindsor campus jobs were all taken by Indians though their own contacts and connections. I decided to do volunteer for a CIP program which finally fed me a campus job. And eventually, I got my first co-op placement. The rest is history as I finished my UG with 4 co-op terms, full-time offer from 2 companies by the time I graduated (I chose one of them where I work now).

From my story, you can find some tips how to overcome this so called barrier "Canadian Experience":
[1] Go for volunteering/unpaid service
[2] Prepare for any post-grad studies or similar with co-op/intern options
[3] Do all certification/accreditation
[4] Familiarize with Canadian style/format of resume/ cover letter/ thank you letter/ references/ portfolio and update them frequently
[5] When applying for specific job, do extensive research on the employer, your role & responsibilities. For each job, you may have to modify your resume/ cover letter.
[6] If you get an interview call, it means you'll get same chance as any other Canadians will have. So, you have to prove yourself worthy for the company. Take mock interviews, sit in front of a mirror and see how you look while talking, do everything that you can to look/act/behave your best.

I've written so many times re: interview tips, co-op and resume in this forum. I don't want to bring them over again here.

For myself, the greatest barrier to getting a real job was what had helped me immigrate -- I was a mid-career professional who was somewhat specialized. This meant that jobs where I truly fit the bill, as opposed to be formally qualified, were fairly unusual and kind of random, geographically. During my first year in Victoria I saw jobs that I was completely and perfectly qualified for on Cape Breton Island, Moose Jaw, Prince George, a couple of places in the far north, and Toronto. If I'd landed in those places my application would have been strong; living in Victoria, my application looked desperate -- who travels from Vancouver Island to Cape Breton to work for 19 dollars an hour? Yet those are the good, skilled, jobs that would connect my education and competency with better positions in Canada.

Once I got one of those, by dint of moving to Montana and using that to make some connections in Edmonton, it's been like night and day, being able to point to some local success and ability to work within the Canadian system.

So no, I don't feel like the local Canadians are preparing me for extermination, to follow up with the weirdly violent post right above this one. I think that they like to hire people who can point to accomplishments that are relevant in Canada. In some fields this is stupid, mining and a lot of engineering are the same everywhere, but in mine, public health, it makes sense. A lot of work really does have a cultural component.

 

[maxvol]

I did say this is happening, but in a more polite/subtle/nice friendly way. Either way its called "social exclusion" You can either say "its a black crow" or "the crow is black". The colour of the crow does not change (the point is its black) and neither discrimination with respect to "Canadian experience". The point is its discrimination

 

[Rossei]

I never took it as discrimination, probably because I was younger. If I came to Canada at 30 or later, I would perhaps feel same way as most newcomers do - discriminated.

But I agree that employers here do look for Canadian experience. I don't know the real reason behind it. Look at RIM. I worked there as a co-op, they used to hire 80% of their co-op students from uWaterloo. In fact, lot of them land with RIM with permanent offer later. And now it's sinking, partly because of their hiring priorities I believe. I'm not saying uWaterloo is a bad university, in fact it's really good but very much over-rated as well. Big IT companies like Google or Facebook outsource tremendously; MS had this trend for years. They hire talents from all over the world and have established branches/offices everywhere. And Canadian RIM stick to business in North America. Poor RIM although I feel sorry as I had a splendid time working there.

 

[maxvol]

I never took it as discrimination, probably because I was younger. If I came to Canada at 30 or later, I would perhaps feel same way as most newcomers do - discriminated.

But I agree that employers here do look for Canadian experience. I don't know the real reason behind it. Look at RIM. I worked there as a co-op, they used to hire 80% of their co-op students from uWaterloo. In fact, lot of them land with RIM with permanent offer later. And now it's sinking, partly because of their hiring priorities I believe. I'm not saying uWaterloo is a bad university, in fact it's really good but very much over-rated as well. Big IT companies like Google or Facebook outsource tremendously; MS had this trend for years. They hire talents from all over the world and have established branches/offices everywhere. And Canadian RIM stick to business in North America. Poor RIM although I feel sorry as I had a splendid time working there.

Good point and this is why most Canadian companies are sinking like the titanic. They think locally and not globally. Unlike their American counter parts they shy away from risk because their corporate foundation is soo weak. Its just one track thinking there is not innovation, no creativity which is why large Canadian companies are being bought over by Americans, they reshuffle the corporation and make it a money spewing powerhouse. Hire the best and the brightest people from all over the world, instead of saying dumb things we need "Canadian Experience". Can you imagine how many intelligent people were turned down because of this discriminatory practice of "Canadian Experience". I dont feel sorry for RIM at all, had they sold the company to Americans this wouldn't have happened, RIM would have prospered. You want to kill a multinational corporation give it to a Canadian

 

[on-hold]

You know, when you think about it, half the reason this discussion exists (and is never settled) is because Canada and Australia are the only two countries in the world to allow mass non-employment-based immigration. In the United States, the only other country in the world to accept large numbers of non-refugee, non-family immigrants, the vast majority of employment-related visas require the applicant to be sponsored by someone who is giving them a job. Quite simply, it's almost unknown today for a country to give people the right to immigrate if they have no family connection and no employment prospect there. Canada does. To me it makes sense that many people who come here like this become frustrated, it's difficult and stressful to change countries, try to start new careers, and adapt to new conditions. It is impossible that there won't be many failures.

Personally, I prefer a system that invites people to come and give it their best shot. There are going to be successes and failures, and probably some of the failures are going to be because Canadians prefer Canadian experience. On some level, it's up to immigrants to prove them wrong; Canada gives them the chance to do so by letting them in in the first place, it's more than 98% of the world's countries do.

 

[maxvol]

So this is an immigration problem? Maybe Canada should not edify and glorify the life here, scenic mountains, crystal clear rivers and lakes, smiley families living in their mansions. This gives a very wrong perception of Canada to the outside world. Sure there could be failures but the failures here are so great that it possibly cannot be ignored. Why should immigrants have to prove themselves when Canada's immigration system is selling them such a big, glorified dream here. Why is it so hard to get a job here for so many people who are highly educated, highly experienced, highly trained professionals, and most importantly they have successfully passed through the point system? and then finally Canadians ask for "Canadian Experience" how counter intuitive is that?

The reality is obviously different as stated by this news article

http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2013/06/28/growing-poverty-among-canadian-immigrants-could-explode-study/

 

[corazon3]

It's all doom and gloom, so I'm just telling you what it is. Even the conservative Globe & Mail admits it's all doom and gloom for immigrants in Canada. So let's just say it's all doom and gloom. Because that's the reality.

Two-year study paints tough picture for new Canadians

They live life at the edges of the economy, caring for children, cleaning corridors, packaging food and driving cabs.

A two-year study released on Tuesday offers a rare glimpse at the working lives of newcomers in Toronto, shining a light on what it calls “invisible” hands in the city's marketplace.

Its findings are based on surveys and interviews with 453 immigrants. Seven in 10 respondents are working in poor conditions such as jobs that have irregular hours or violate labour laws. Nearly half work in the “informal economy” – for cash, without receipts – to supplement their incomes. Seventy-one per cent earn less than $30,000 a year. And just 3 per cent who were professionals in their home countries are now working in their fields. The report also noted that 68 per cent of those who could find only casual work had some postsecondary education....

For the rest of the article, go to:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/two-year-study-paints-tough-picture-for-new-canadians/article14979853/

Below is one of the responses in the comments section:

I'm one of those immigrants. I have some modest skills. A Ph.D. in a hard science, 30 years of experience working with electronics and software, hands on experience with large, very expensive industrial plants. Licenced Professional engineer. World travel as an in-high-demand problem solver.

I'm from the United States. Yes, we speak English in the United States, though I am often asked in Canada to take the TOEFL because I don't have proof I have taken English 10 in high school.

You think I can find work in Canada? Think again. "But educational standards are different in Canada." "It says here you must have passed Math 10. There is no substitute." "CalTech is a school? Do they have schools in ...Califernne?"

I work from home for a US company. They don't pay me what I am worth, but they do pay me. And, although I have been in Canada for more than a decade, I am still part of the US economy. This won't change. I have no "Canadian work experience" except for some under-the-table gigs as an electrician (something I did before I got my degrees). This is not likely to change any time soon.

Many immigrants give up and go home. I can readily understand why. This is discrimination, and it is cultural. If you want to take advantage of what skilled immigrants bring to the table you must change the attitudes of the people. Top down attempts will not work.

Anna Harding, Ph.D., P. Eng, (and a whole bunch more of absolutely worthless in Canada alphabet soup).

"CalTech is a school? Do they have schools in ...Califernne?" LOL. I doubt these idiots have ever heard of Cal Tech and in fact they'll hire someone with a degree from schools like Centennial College or U of Windsor over immigrants with degrees from Cal Tech or MIT. LOL. What a bunch of losers and retards!

 

[pickabeau]

I couldn't agree more.

I came to Canada to do my undergrad and yet I faced some difficulties to find a co-op placement in 1st year. Though I was among top 5 of the class; I wasn't getting any interview calls. Then I found out that my resume isn't rich with "Canadian experience". Believe me when I say that even co-op employers look for job experience within Canada. Anyway, I started to look for any campus job opportunity. Nothing fruitful as uWindsor campus jobs were all taken by Indians though their own contacts and connections. I decided to do volunteer for a CIP program which finally fed me a campus job. And eventually, I got my first co-op placement. The rest is history as I finished my UG with 4 co-op terms, full-time offer from 2 companies by the time I graduated (I chose one of them where I work now).

From my story, you can find some tips how to overcome this so called barrier "Canadian Experience":
[1] Go for volunteering/unpaid service
[2] Prepare for any post-grad studies or similar with co-op/intern options
[3] Do all certification/accreditation
[4] Familiarize with Canadian style/format of resume/ cover letter/ thank you letter/ references/ portfolio and update them frequently
[5] When applying for specific job, do extensive research on the employer, your role & responsibilities. For each job, you may have to modify your resume/ cover letter.
[6] If you get an interview call, it means you'll get same chance as any other Canadians will have. So, you have to prove yourself worthy for the company. Take mock interviews, sit in front of a mirror and see how you look while talking, do everything that you can to look/act/behave your best.

I've written so many times re: interview tips, co-op and resume in this forum. I don't want to bring them over again here.

 

[Alurra71]

....
**SNIP***Its findings are based on surveys and interviews with 453 immigrants. Seven in 10 respondents are working in poor conditions such as jobs that have irregular hours or violate labour laws. Nearly half work in the “informal economy” – for cash, without receipts – to supplement their incomes. Seventy-one per cent earn less than $30,000 a year. And just 3 per cent who were professionals in their home countries are now working in their fields. The report also noted that 68 per cent of those who could find only casual work had some postsecondary education....***SNIP***

This is the number of new immigrants to Canada in 2012 ....

257,887 I would hardly consider 453 to be a proportionate number of interviews to decide that Canada is just not immigrant friendly ...

Just a thought ...

 

[mikenz]

@corazon..
I hear what you are saying and there is proven fact that this is the case. According to the stats provided, I belong to the 3 percent that work in their field of expertise with good money. So either I was very lucky to have found an employer appreciating my experience and hiring me within 3 weeks of entering the country or they just liked me..Whatever it was, it can and does happen, life is wonderful here!

 

[on-hold]

@ corazon..
I hear what you are saying and there is proven fact that this is the case. According to the stats provided, I belong to the 3 percent that work in their field of expertise with good money. So either I was very lucky to have found an employer appreciating my experience and hiring me within 3 weeks of entering the country or they just liked me..Whatever it was, it can and does happen, life is wonderful here!

For me too -- I came to Canada at the same time I changed careers (into public health), and I'm making far more here than I ever did, in any job, prior to landing. My field has no licensing, and it took me three years and two moves to get to this point. I find it quite shocking that only 3% of the immigrants interviewed in the article are working in their professional fields; and unlike another commenter, I think a sample size of more than 400 is pretty indicative (if all of those are professionals). That's a terrible statistic, and it is something that Canada needs to investigate and deal with, either in its qualifications for immigrating or elsewhere.

They should do this study in the ten largest cities, so as to give immigrants an idea of local variations.

 

[SenoritaBella]

I think they should extend the study to all the provinces and territories. Places like Saskatoon(or Saskatchewan as a whole) has seen a huge influx of immigrants in recent years and from what I gather(from those who moved there), they are doing very well.

Another example is Winnipeg, where there is a large population of practicing physicians who are immigrants.

So while there many be a 'barrier' to employment, I believe people have to be open and willing to move from big cities like Toronto to other parts of the country. So many of my countrymen who swore by Montreal have finally moved to Alberta. They work even more now and actually see the benefits.