Canadian Citizenship?...Really?...Oh My

[hawk39]

You also need to prove how exactly did she get her USA citizenship...

Under section 6 in the application for proof of citizenship (CIT-0001), it asks if the parent acquired another nationality, followed by what country, on what date and how it was acquired; but it does not ask you to send in proof of the acquisition. So this is not true.

prove...if ever she rejected to be a British subject in the past.

Why would Wyfarer have to prove to the government that her mother renounced her British Subject status, if he/she is trying to get proof of citizenship because of his/her mother? Sorry, but that does not make any sense; it's almost like self-incrimination. The British government would have recorded any renunciation, and it would show up when IRCC is researching/processing Wyfarer's application because Canada and the UK share information

Wyfarer is correct in that he/she just needs to follow the checklist for scenario 3, which are certified copies of his/her birth certificate, mother's birth certificate, and regular copies of two pieces of identification with one including a photo, receipt for payment of the application fee, and 2 citizenship photos according to specifications.

 

[vensak]

Under section 6 in the application for proof of citizenship (CIT-0001), it asks if the parent acquired another nationality, followed by what country, on what date and how it was acquired; but it does not ask you to send in proof of the acquisition. So this is not true.


Why would Wyfarer have to prove to the government that her mother renounced her British Subject status, if he/she is trying to get proof of citizenship because of his/her mother? Sorry, but that does not make any sense; it's almost like self-incrimination. The British government would have recorded any renunciation, and it would show up when IRCC is researching/processing Wyfarer's application because Canada and the UK share information

Wyfarer is correct in that he/she just needs to follow the checklist for scenario 3, which are certified copies of his/her birth certificate, mother's birth certificate, and regular copies of two pieces of identification with one including a photo, receipt for payment of the application fee, and 2 citizenship photos according to specifications.

Just so you know there were some laws specifically for women that were british subjects and for children.
For example if a father of a child gained foreign nationality (specially certain nationalities) he lost his british nationality and so dd the child and so did his wife (if she was british before).

And if a woman that was a british subject did marry a foreigner and then she got his citizenship she lost british citizenship (but only woman).

Now in 2015 this was amended that even such cases would be still Canadians (a child or a woman).
of course if you did it willingly that is a different story. So for your own sake you need to investigate what happened when when it comes to citizenship.
Because of following:
1. they can ask you for more documents (for example if your mother has become a USA citizen and when and under which circumstances - and yes you cannot reject answering because your application would be incomplete).
so that is why.

 

[Wyfarer]

I appreciate the help and input from everyone. hawk39, is prettty much spot on, EXCEPT for Section 6 of the application. The "you" part of that is referring to me as is much of the checklist (will highlight further vensak) for the app. In Section 6 they are asking if "me/I" have citizenship of another country other than Canada. Yes is the answer, they then ask country, date, and how obtained. I responded by stating USA, my birthdate, and noted "Citizenship via birth in USA." They also ask for absences from Canada, from what dates; I respond with my birthdate (in the USA) and current date when I file and note "Born and raised in USA."

There is in Section 8a questions about my mom (about my dad too, but aren't germane to my needs per se in the app), where they ask if my mother: 1. How did she obtain citizenship? "Birth in Canada" I wrote and will support this with her Birth Certificate, 2. Did she leave Canada for more than one year? Yes, I have the date of her border crossing (from my cousin) at four months old to her death almost three years ago, 3. Did she have citizenship of another country other than Canada? Yes, USA. Now this is where I have a snag. They ask for "details" and I'm not sure how she and my granddad (not that I need his circumstances) were naturalized. It could have been that they were both naturalized via my grandmother (a US Citizen), birth for my mom and marriage for my grandfather. I'm working on that detail, asking the question of my cousin (whose dad, my uncle and mom's brother and other brother were both born in the States).

Going back to the document checklist and the 12 different scenarios, vensak, they all start with "If you are/were...blah, blah, blah." In all those other scenarios, which pertain only to me, the answer is no, so I don't have to address the scenario any further. I don't know if it was you or someone else kind of noted above; it seems that for this application they (the reviewers/government) are going to assume you (me) are a Canadian Citizen and work backwards to disprove that or request/require additional information/documentation. Guess we'll see. I'm finding the biggest (for me) hurdle is replacing my mom's birth certificate where I have to fill out another app, enclose my passport, birth certificate, and mom's death certificate, all ORIGINAL and courier them to Canada.

 

[vensak]

I appreciate the help and input from everyone. hawk39, is prettty much spot on, EXCEPT for Section 6 of the application. The "you" part of that is referring to me as is much of the checklist (will highlight further vensak) for the app. In Section 6 they are asking if "me/I" have citizenship of another country other than Canada. Yes is the answer, they then ask country, date, and how obtained. I responded by stating USA, my birthdate, and noted "Citizenship via birth in USA." They also ask for absences from Canada, from what dates; I respond with my birthdate (in the USA) and current date when I file and note "Born and raised in USA."

There is in Section 8a questions about my mom (about my dad too, but aren't germane to my needs per se in the app), where they ask if my mother: 1. How did she obtain citizenship? "Birth in Canada" I wrote and will support this with her Birth Certificate, 2. Did she leave Canada for more than one year? Yes, I have the date of her border crossing (from my cousin) at four months old to her death almost three years ago, 3. Did she have citizenship of another country other than Canada? Yes, USA. Now this is where I have a snag. They ask for "details" and I'm not sure how she and my granddad (not that I need his circumstances) were naturalized. It could have been that they were both naturalized via my grandmother (a US Citizen), birth for my mom and marriage for my grandfather. I'm working on that detail, asking the question of my cousin (whose dad, my uncle and mom's brother and other brother were both born in the States).

Going back to the document checklist and the 12 different scenarios, vensak, they all start with "If you are/were...blah, blah, blah." In all those other scenarios, which pertain only to me, the answer is no, so I don't have to address the scenario any further. I don't know if it was you or someone else kind of noted above; it seems that for this application they (the reviewers/government) are going to assume you (me) are a Canadian Citizen and work backwards to disprove that or request/require additional information/documentation. Guess we'll see. I'm finding the biggest (for me) hurdle is replacing my mom's birth certificate where I have to fill out another app, enclose my passport, birth certificate, and mom's death certificate, all ORIGINAL and courier them to Canada.

Not exactly. First they have to establish citizenship of your mother. And in order to do that they might need details about your grand parents.
And yes they need to establish if under previous law she lost her citizenship because she married a foreigner (which most likely happened). They also need to know what was your grandfather doing while she was minor (when it comes to his citizenship).
Why? because a minor child will take same path as his father.

That is how they process the case. so that is why they are asking details.

 

[Wyfarer]

Not exactly. First they have to establish citizenship of your mother. And in order to do that they might need details about your grand parents.
And yes they need to establish if under previous law she lost her citizenship because she married a foreigner (which most likely happened). They also need to know what was your grandfather doing while she was minor (when it comes to his citizenship).
Why? because a minor child will take same path as his father.

That is how they process the case. so that is why they are asking details.

Okay, cousin came back with Naturalization Index for the County in California for my grandfather (Canadian) with intention date and number, petition date, and certificate date and number--all outlined in the index. My mom was not in that index and therefore must have been naturalized via her mom (my grandmother) because she was a US Citizen (so appears to not take the same path as father). I don't know if I may need to supply my grandmother's birth certificate (which I do not have, but could probably get), but the latter (her mom and dad and nationality) would be on my mom's birth certificate.

Further, looks like I'm applying to Alberta for my mom's birth certificate; couldn't find the same at my uncle's (his parents house originally) house next door today.

Oh, and just to be frank; my mom "lived" all of four months as an infant in Canada after being born, and I never lived in Canada.

 

[hawk39]

I appreciate the help and input from everyone. hawk39, is prettty much spot on, EXCEPT for Section 6 of the application.

I think you are looking at the old application. The new one, which has a revision date of May 2018, requests parental information now on section 6. When I did my application a year ago, it was section 8, but now it's on section 6. The new application is lot easier to understand, and the instructions seem to clear up some of the ambiguity from the old one.

Not exactly. First they have to establish citizenship of your mother. And in order to do that they might need details about your grand parents.
And yes they need to establish if under previous law she lost her citizenship because she married a foreigner (which most likely happened). They also need to know what was your grandfather doing while she was minor (when it comes to his citizenship).
Why? because a minor child will take same path as his father.

That is how they process the case. so that is why they are asking details.

The status of the applicant's parent(s) at the time of the applicant's birth is the only thing that matters today, not the grandparents. While the status of the grandparents may have affected the parent's status, this is not what you are reporting to IRCC within the application, except when the parent was also born outside of Canada. Since Wyfarer's mother was born in Canada, he/she only needs to report her status by her birth certificate. Even if Wyfarer's grandfather had formally renounced his British status that resulted in his/her mother also losing her status, I think it would be seen as an involuntary loss as a minor due to prior legislation by the Canadian government today, and his/her mother's citizenship would have been granted in 2015.

 

[Wyfarer]

The status of the applicant's parent(s) at the time of the applicant's birth is the only thing that matters today, not the grandparents. While the status of the grandparents may have affected the parent's status, this is not what you are reporting to IRCC within the application, except when the parent was also born outside of Canada. Since Wyfarer's mother was born in Canada, he/she only needs to report her status by her birth certificate. Even if Wyfarer's grandfather had formally renounced his British status that resulted in his/her mother also losing her status, I think it would be seen as an involuntary loss as a minor due to prior legislation by the Canadian government today, and his/her mother's citizenship would have been granted in 2015.

Great summary hawk.

My grandfather (Canadian) became a US Citizen in 1940 (my mom was born in 1929). Interestingly, my cousin just remarked (great gal doing all this abroad on her vacation!) that my mom during the 1930 and 1940 US Census was listed as AL or Alien. But, in a ship manifest in 1952 was listed with a US Passport. As US Citizenship requirements have changed I'm sure over some 80 years, I'd really have to dig deep to find out how perhaps my mom's situation was handled i.e. becoming a US Citizen. There is a coincidence that my grandfather became a US Citizen in 1940, but in the US Census in the same year my mom was listed as AL (Alien). The naturalization or cert was dated May 10, 1940 for my grandfather. I suppose the US Census could have been earlier in the year where technically my grandfather was not naturalized AND my mom was noted as AL. I'm trying to confirm with my cousin how my grandfather was listed in the Census of 1940: US Citizen or AL (Alien). Again, supposing, my mom's US Citizenship could have come at the time of my grandfather's naturalization; my mom would have been ten or eleven years old (a minor).

BUT, and however, I found this regarding becoming a US Citizen via birth mother who is a US Citizen:

4. Child of a U.S. Citizen Mother and Foreign National Father [10]
A child born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions acquires citizenship at birth if:

•The child was born before noon (Eastern Standard Time) May 24, 1934;
•The child’s father is a foreign national;
•The child’s mother was a U.S. citizen at the time of the child’s birth; and
•The child’s U.S. citizen mother resided in the United States prior to the child’s birth.

The only snag there is about residing in the US prior to the child's (my mom's) birth. I think technically my grandmother was in the US before my mom's birth, but only for a few months; I believe she spent a number of years living before that in Canada with family or friends (my grandmother was the youngest of 11 kids I think it goes) and going to nursing school in Edmonton.

My only thought is, if the above quote is true and my grandmother and mom fit all the requirements, why, at least in the 1940 Census, was my mom still listed as an Alien? She would have been ten or eleven years old. Perhaps it was "cleaner" in process that my mom gets naturalized as a minor the same time her father becomes naturalized as a US Citizen. I don't know how precise my application will need to outline the latter; right now I'm responding that she received US Citizenship via her US Citizen mother, but I don't know the exact date.

 

[hawk39]

Great summary hawk.

My grandfather (Canadian) became a US Citizen in 1940 (my mom was born in 1929). Interestingly, my cousin just remarked (great gal doing all this abroad on her vacation!) that my mom during the 1930 and 1940 US Census was listed as AL or Alien. But, in a ship manifest in 1952 was listed with a US Passport. As US Citizenship requirements have changed I'm sure over some 80 years, I'd really have to dig deep to find out how perhaps my mom's situation was handled i.e. becoming a US Citizen. There is a coincidence that my grandfather became a US Citizen in 1940, but in the US Census in the same year my mom was listed as AL (Alien). The naturalization or cert was dated May 10, 1940 for my grandfather. I suppose the US Census could have been earlier in the year where technically my grandfather was not naturalized AND my mom was noted as AL. I'm trying to confirm with my cousin how my grandfather was listed in the Census of 1940: US Citizen or AL (Alien). Again, supposing, my mom's US Citizenship could have come at the time of my grandfather's naturalization; my mom would have been ten or eleven years old (a minor).

I'm trying to find out how children born abroad to a US citizen at the time that your mother was born in 1929, but it seems that the only law that would suggest how at that time is the Naturalization Act of 1795 (1 Stat. 414), under chapter XX, section 3, which says "children of citizens of the United States, born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States, shall be considered as citizens of the United States: Provided, That the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons, whose fathers have never been resident in the United States"; so I think that means that in order for children born abroad to be citizens, the father had to have also resided in the US. So since her father was Canadian, your mother couldn't be a citizen until her father was also a citizen and resided in the US. Since I couldn't find any amendments or further text regarding acquisition for children, I have to assume this law is how your mother's status was defined at the time she was born in 1929.

The next time that the subject of acquisition for children was legislatively brought up was the Nationality Act of 1940, after the birth of your mother. It does not seem that section 201(b) was retroactive to your mother's birth, so only when her father was naturalized in 1940 was your mother able to get her US citizenship through section 313, which says 'a child born outside the US to an alien and a US citizen becomes a citizen if by the time the alien naturalizes, the child is under 18 and is residing in the US'. So yeah, probably the census was taken before her father naturalized, and she was still listed as an alien.

 

[Wyfarer]

Ha, all very interesting hawk, thanks for that. My elderly uncle (mom's younger brother by just a year or so--he is 88 now) has said that mom got her naturalization through their dad (I talked to him yesterday and I think has said the same in the past), but I was always thinking, nah, that doesn't seem right since the mother (my grandmother) was a US Citizen; but now you've kind of tied that all together. It also seems that legislation covered years between 1922 through 1934; something maybe didn't "fit" and perhaps legislation was changed again further down the road.

Interesting of citizenship changes/requirement; I obviously wouldn't even be going through this process I believe if there were not changes to Canadian citizenship laws in 2009 and 2015. That was a big help above I think hawk (thanks again) because I will quote the Act and section in my "details" part of the application.

 

[hawk39]

Ha, all very interesting hawk, thanks for that. My elderly uncle (mom's younger brother by just a year or so--he is 88 now) has said that mom got her naturalization through their dad (I talked to him yesterday and I think has said the same in the past), but I was always thinking, nah, that doesn't seem right since the mother (my grandmother) was a US Citizen; but now you've kind of tied that all together. It also seems that legislation covered years between 1922 through 1934; something maybe didn't "fit" and perhaps legislation was changed again further down the road.

Interesting of citizenship changes/requirement; I obviously wouldn't even be going through this process I believe if there were not changes to Canadian citizenship laws in 2009 and 2015. That was a big help above I think hawk (thanks again) because I will quote the Act and section in my "details" part of the application.

It seems US naturalization laws were done in bits-and-pieces since the founding of the country until the 1940 Nationality Act. Its seems like each legislation was just an addition here, a repealing there, little amendments in-between. The 1940 Act was seen as the first comprehensive legislation that covered all of the bases from birthright citizenship to naturalization and immigration since the Founding.

I was paraphrasing the 1940 quote as that is my interpretation, and I couldn't cut-and-paste it from the image, unlike the 1795 act. So if you're going to quote it, make sure you quote the whole section 313 from the source. The new revised application says to try to explain as you can, even if you aren't certain of all of the details in the appropriate fields. If you need more room, it says you can continue on a separate sheet of paper.

Good luck

 

[vensak]

that is correct. In the past past they only looked at the father. So if your grandfather did get his USA citizenship and reject being British subject (alienation act) then that might be problem.
Again they can ask for more documents. And they will (specifically when it comes to your grandfather).
Situation would have been much easier if she was born after 1947. But because it was before additional set of old British law is added there.
That is why they already ask more details about her parents.

 

[Wyfarer]

Thank again guys for the help. Hawk, I was going to just quote the Act and Section by number, not all the verbiage within the section. If they want/need the verbiage or other information like vensak suggests they might, then I will address that down the road.

Need to get info off to Registry Connect for mom's Birth Certificate. Just discovered they will take photocopies of all my stuff; whew! didn't want to send the originals. They require my passport copy be notarized, just trying to confirm if they need my photocopy of my birth cert and death cert of mom notarized. Keep trying to call without success, but they do answer emails pretty quickly!

7/24/18: Photocopies for all are good enough and no need for notarization except on passport.

 

[Wyfarer]

I think you are looking at the old application. The new one, which has a revision date of May 2018, requests parental information now on section 6. When I did my application a year ago, it was section 8, but now it's on section 6. The new application is lot easier to understand, and the instructions seem to clear up some of the ambiguity from the old one.

For some reason I missed this part you wrote hawk...I did have the old version! I just got the May 2018 version downloaded now.

 

[Wyfarer]

Got mom's birth certificate via Registry Connect where the latter actually called me to say there was some "odd" things on my mom's birth certificate; namely misspelling of my grandfather's name. A typo (I'm sure) of "Willaim" and middle name spelling of female "Frances" instead of "Francis." They could correct this, but it would take another 30 or so days. I said just leave it as for my review the Feds reviewing my app would see my copy in the application and in their records being the same thing.

So, with the birth certificate of my mom, I got the Application for Proof of Canadian Citizenship off today. Not too much paperwork, a couple things notarized, but photos were a bit of a snag. All US ones are pretty much 2" X 2" where the Canadian one was longer (not sure if that is the same for a passport application too), something like 2 3/4". Tried the usual suspects (FedEx and UPS stores), but ended up going to an independent guy locally. He saw my specification sheet I printed out and was like, "Ah, Canadian?" I was like, yeah, how could you tell (he was a distance away)? I could tell by the paperwork you put on the counter. Anyway, he was bang on with his photos i.e. all the spec's.

Guess my next update will be in about five months; I understand that is the processing time.

 

[Wyfarer]

So I got my packet (App for Cert of Canadian Citizenship) off shortly before leaving to China for a week. Specifically; sent on Aug 17th, delivered by USPS (or I guess Canadian Post Service) on Aug 28th. I was away Sept 8th thru Sept 15th (not that, that is too relevant), but am wondering, and maybe I've read this already somewhere, do "they" contact me in some way that "they've" received my application and am now in a cue for review? I seem to be a little out of the loop on what to expect going forward.