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Bill C-6: Senate stage

torontosm

Champion Member
Apr 3, 2013
1,677
261
AmirATM said:
The confusion might be in your head. Ok! So when a new immigrant has to tick a box when he applies for citizenship that he has the intent to reside in Canada and there is a chance under the current law that if he leaves right after he gets his passport he might have his citizenship revoked , how? With a letter sent by mail. As simple as it sounds. A born Canadian can leave the country and never come back and he will not be subjected to any citizenship revocation. This doesn’t look to you like creating second class citizens?
No, the confusion clearly results from your misconstruing the laws. The intent to reside clause applies ONLY until citizenship is granted. At that point, ALL Canadian citizens, whether born or naturalized, are in exactly the same boat. So, after "ticking a box", and becoming a citizen, the naturalized citizen in your example is free to leave without any risk of having their citizenship revoked, exactly like a born citizen could. So, they are not a second class citizen

This point has been beaten to death and yet people still insist that there is a distinction. I wonder if it is becuase they prefer to view themselves as victims of sort.
 

torontosm

Champion Member
Apr 3, 2013
1,677
261
monalisa said:
Yes all immigrants became second class citizens, even who are born in Canada are second class since by birth they automatically obtain their parent's first citizenship

torontosm stop arguing and answer my question (nothing personal)
Last attack on mosque in Quebec city, the attacker "alexandre" will he loose his citizenship and deported?
While if your son who is born in canada and has no other citizenship will be deported

Now do you feel that you are second class citizen?

That's what the lawyer mentioned during committee meeting
I believe this has already been discussed extensively, and I have provided my opinion on it as well. You can scroll back and review older posts if you wish to do so.

And no, I do not believe that I, nor any other Canadian, are second class citizens. Further, given that I have no desire to commit any act of terrorism, the thought of citizenship revocation is not a concern at all. The fact that you are obsessed with it is a cause for concern in itself.
 

sistemc

Hero Member
Feb 2, 2014
514
178
torontosm said:
No, the confusion clearly results from your misconstruing the laws. The intent to reside clause applies ONLY until citizenship is granted. At that point, ALL Canadian citizens, whether born or naturalized, are in exactly the same boat. So, after "ticking a box", and becoming a citizen, the naturalized citizen in your example is free to leave without any risk of having their citizenship revoked, exactly like a born citizen could. So, they are not a second class citizen

This point has been beaten to death and yet people still insist that there is a distinction. I wonder if it is becuase they prefer to view themselves as victims of sort.
On the Application for the Canadian citienship there is the following question:

INTENTION
I intend, if granted citizenship,
• to continue to reside in Canada;

And you must answer yes. I am not the lawyer, but my engineering mindset tells me that the government expects me to become a second class citizen when granted the citizenship.
 

monalisa

Hero Member
Dec 6, 2016
267
21
torontosm said:
I believe this has already been discussed extensively, and I have provided my opinion on it as well. You can scroll back and review older posts if you wish to do so.

And no, I do not believe that I, nor any other Canadian, are second class citizens. Further, given that I have no desire to commit any act of terrorism, the thought of citizenship revocation is not a concern at all. The fact that you are obsessed with it is a cause for concern in itself.
I dont think so, "regarding you can leave to work aboard even if you tick that box"

Because there was an argument about it in the senates about it, watch the meeting video again :D

PM and government are saying is creating second class citizens :) you have to admit it lol
 

monalisa

Hero Member
Dec 6, 2016
267
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sistemc said:
On the Application for the Canadian citienship there is the following question:

INTENTION
I intend, if granted citizenship,
• to continue to reside in Canada;

And you must answer yes. I am not the lawyer, but my engineering mindset tells me that the government expects me to become a second class citizen when granted the citizenship.
+1 ;D

@torontosm I also understood as you said, but later I found that we should continue to reside here ;)
 

AmirATM

Star Member
Oct 4, 2016
119
22
torontosm said:
I believe this has already been discussed extensively, and I have provided my opinion on it as well. You can scroll back and review older posts if you wish to do so.

And no, I do not believe that I, nor any other Canadian, are second class citizens. Further, given that I have no desire to commit any act of terrorism, the thought of citizenship revocation is not a concern at all. The fact that you are obsessed with it is a cause for concern in itself.
Torontosm
I am not a lawyer but there is no reasonable way to understand the intent to reside but the way i put it forward. If the explanation you provided is what the cons wanted then it is even worse, so you think someone is not going to thik the box if he has no intent to reside? of course everyone who has come here will thik that box no matter of his intention - with no exception- so if i understand it the way you said, to come with something like this is completely stupid .

The laws that cons brought are alarming if you look far enough. I personally intended to reside in Canada and i am not a terrorist ,I am against the fraud, and i am sure that the chance that someone is going to revoke my citizenship when i get it is 0 under the current rules, but you have to understand that these kind of laws is the first step in being a dictatorship- that's how it starts . Why do you first come with asking someone to have the intent to reside at first place !
 

torontosm

Champion Member
Apr 3, 2013
1,677
261
sistemc said:
On the Application for the Canadian citienship there is the following question:

INTENTION
I intend, if granted citizenship,
• to continue to reside in Canada;

And you must answer yes. I am not the lawyer, but my engineering mindset tells me that the government expects me to become a second class citizen when granted the citizenship.
Great, now go and listen to the discussions when Bill C24 was in front of Parliament. Then, the Minister clearly stated that the Intent to Reside only applies until citizenship has been granted, and this was repeated on numerous occasions in the press, at speeches and of course during the Senate and Parliamentary review. Finally, the right to mobility is protected by the Charter and until someone changes that, you are perfectly safe.

Alternatively, you could just take a look at the CIC website (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/tools/cit/grant/residence/intention.asp) where it says:
"Subsection 5(1.1) of the Act states that for the purposes of paragraphs 5(1)(c.1) and 11(1)(e), the person’s intention must be continuous from the date of their application until they have taken the Oath of Citizenship.

Officers will be assessing the applicant’s intention if granted citizenship (i.e., what the applicant intends to do after becoming a citizen). Applicants must hold this intention to reside if granted citizenship from the time they sign their application to the time they take the Oath. The intent to reside is required to obtain citizenship but no longer applies once citizenship is granted. Once citizenship is granted, a citizen has the right to enter, remain in, and leave Canada as guaranteed by the Charter."


So clearly there is no second class citizenship.
 

torontosm

Champion Member
Apr 3, 2013
1,677
261
AmirATM said:
....but you have to understand that these kind of laws is the first step in being a dictatorship- that's how it starts . Why do you first come with asking someone to have the intent to reside at first place !
Claiming that the intent to reside provisions drafted by a previous government equates to dictatorship is truly a bit of a stretch. Who exactly would be the dictator in your example...Harper? You'd have to bring him out of retirement first!
 

AmirATM

Star Member
Oct 4, 2016
119
22
torontosm said:
Claiming that the intent to reside provisions drafted by a previous government equates to dictatorship is truly a bit of a stretch. Who exactly would be the dictator in your example...Harper? You'd have to bring him out of retirement first!
I didn't say that - i said this is how dictatorship starts, this clause is either completely irrelevant ( if i go by your explanation because it doesn't serve any purpose) or creating two classes of citizens (The way i understood this clause ), in both cases, i hope it should go away - I am quite confident it will, finally.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,385
3,130
Second class citizenship:

The criticism that Bill C-24 provisions create second class citizenship was NOT about the so-called intent-to-reside requirement. This had to do with the implementation of provisions which would allow the Minister to revoke the citizenship of some citizens based on certain criminal convictions, but not other citizens even though they committed the same crimes: hence, two different classes of citizen, those who could lose citizenship and those who could not, even though both engaged in the same criminal acts.

Bill C-6 still proposes to repeal these provisions. Last I looked, there was still some rumbling and grumbling about this, suggestions that the Senate may amend the Bill, but so far it appears that Bill C-6 is likely to pass and be adopted (sooner or later) with the provisions for repealing this intact.


So-called intent-to-reside requirement:

The so-called intent-to-reside requirement is prescribed in subsection 5(1)(c.1). of the Citizenship Act. This is specifically applicable to Permanent Residents, not citizens, and in particular prescribes the requisite intent a PR must have to be eligible for citizenship.

Nothing in Section 5(1) applies to anyone who is a citizen, whether a citizen by descent or a naturalized citizen.

The hyperbolic and misleading characterizations to the contrary, by a very few lawyers back in 2014, was no more than a red herring, unfortunately so since that nonsense garnered a lot of attention and was a distraction from many of the real serious problems with Bill C-24, only some of which will be fixed by Bill C-6 (assuming it is adopted).

Bill C-6 will also remove this eligibility-for-grant-citizenship requirement.




sistemc said:
On the Application for the Canadian citienship there is the following question:

INTENTION
I intend, if granted citizenship,
• to continue to reside in Canada;

And you must answer yes. I am not the lawyer, but my engineering mindset tells me that the government expects me to become a second class citizen when granted the citizenship.
AmirATM said:
The confusion might be in your head. Ok! So when a new immigrant has to tick a box when he applies for citizenship that he has the intent to reside in Canada and there is a chance under the current law that if he leaves right after he gets his passport he might have his citizenship revoked , how? With a letter sent by mail. As simple as it sounds. A born Canadian can leave the country and never come back and he will not be subjected to any citizenship revocation. This doesn’t look to you like creating second class citizens?
I fully agree that there are serious problems with the procedure for revoking the citizenship of those accused of fraud in obtaining their citizenship. Unfortunately Bill C-6 does not address the shortcomings in process due to changes made by Bill C-24.

Let us be clear however: there is no basis for revoking anyone's citizenship based on the person leaving Canada, no matter how soon after taking the oath the citizen leaves. Any assertions to the contrary are misinformation.

The claim that leaving Canada can be used as evidence of fraud to revoke a new citizen's citizenship is grossly exaggerated, and there is nothing in Canadian jurisprudence which indicates even a remote possibility that would allow the government to revoke citizenship based on misrepresentation in the absence of concrete evidence of actual fraud.

So sure, for those who applied subject to the intent-to-reside requirement, if the new citizen sold his house, accepted a job abroad, and bought the airline ticket to leave before taking the oath, then after the oath left Canada to live and work abroad, DUH!, no paranormal powers of intuition necessary to figure out what was going on there: FRAUD! That said, it warrants observing, the prospect of this individual having his citizenship revoked is remote, very remote.

If, in contrast, this individual sold his house and established a residence abroad before taking the oath, returned to Canada long enough to take the oath, and had failed in the meantime (before the oath) to notify IRCC of his change in address, then the risk of revocation will increase. Probably still a rather small risk, but some risk.


In any event, with only fantastical (not based in reality) exceptions, the scenario posed by AmirATM is really about applicants who engage in FRAUD. They are not second-class citizens. They are not really citizens at all since they engaged in FRAUD in order to illegally obtain a grant of citizenship.

They will find little or no sympathy among the vast majority of Canadians, no ethnic or nationality bias at play.

Again, I agree that the procedures for prosecuting cases of fraud, as adopted by Bill C-24, are problematic and fail to adequately protect the right of Canadians (remembering that PRs are Canadians too) to fair procedure. There is potential for injustice due to the flaws in procedure. But this applies equally to any and all naturalized citizens, including those who became citizens before the intent-to-reside requirement was implemented, and really has nothing to do with the intent-to-reside requirement at all.

And, unfortunately, Bill C-6 does NOT address this serious flaw in the current Citizenship Act, and so far as I have seen, there is little or no movement toward tabling legislation to address this.

Remember, even the citizen who stays in Canada can have his citizenship revoked if he engaged in fraud during the process of becoming a PR or the process of becoming a citizen.

Otherwise, make no mistake: misrepresentations made in the process of acquiring citizenship constitute fraud. Any citizenship thus obtained is forever subject to revocation. This was true before Bill C-24 was adopted. This is true for most (if not all) other countries.




sistemc said:
. . . I am not the lawyer . . .
AmirATM said:
. . . I am not a lawyer but . . .
Not being a lawyer does not give one a license to mis-state or ignore what the law actually is.

Again, Section 5(1) in the Citizenship Act only applies to Permanent Residents. It straight-forwardly prescribes the requirements which PRs must meet to be eligible for a grant of citizenship. Subsection 5(1)(c.1) in particular only refers to and specifies the intent a Permanent Resident must have to be eligible for grant citizenship.

Any assertion or characterization of this provision suggesting it has any effect on any citizen is unfounded, not true.

In the meantime, while there have been some hints that a few Senators may also have concerns about removing this requirement, it nonetheless still appears that Bill C-6 will eventually be adopted with the provisions to not only remove this requirement, but to make it as if there never was any such requirement.


Note in passing: The intent-to-reside requirement was largely intended to give CIC (under the Harper government) the authority to summarily deny citizenship to applicants discerned to be applying-on-the-way-to-the-airport. However, concerns about abuse of the Canadian immigration system by some individuals perceived to be passport-shopping or otherwise seeking citizenship-of-convenience were around long before Harper became PM. Criteria for issuing RQ adopted by the previous Liberal government, for example, targeted applicants identified as returning from abroad to attend the test or interview. This is bound to still be a concern, still a reason for increased scrutiny, still raising the bar for some applicants, for those perceived to be abusing the Canadian immigration system. Eliminating the intent requirement, as provided by Bill C-6, does not mean IRCC will not discriminate against those applicants perceived to be abusing the system. (Such discrimination is acceptable so long as IRCC properly applies the law in making final decisions . . . like discriminating against convicted criminals is OK.)

In this regard, notwithstanding how one feels about it, generally there will be little or no sympathy among Canadians for any immigrant who exploits the system without intending to live permanently in Canada. Whether Bill C-6 gets adopted or not. Whether if adopted it still removes the intent requirement or not. Applicants perceived to be applying-on-the-way-to-the-airport will likely face more difficulties than most, and very few in Canada will have much if any sympathy for them. Just the way it is.
 

AmirATM

Star Member
Oct 4, 2016
119
22
@dpenabill
interesting insight .
Regarding the intent to reside, If the law is explained and applied as you have described then I agree that has nothing to do with 2 class of citizens. I derived my view based on the last senate meeting, specifically,the arguments that Julie Taub brought forward, sound very negative and cant be understood but creating 2 class of citizens. Then again I am not an expert, and No this statement is not a cover for me to misinterpret the law, however i am using my observation and understanding based on the surrounding media/individuals etc . If I need a real opinion that might affect me I would seek an expert opinion for sure. we just sharing ideas and here we go we triggered some interesting clarifications.
 

marcher

Hero Member
Mar 30, 2016
534
61
simoncanada said:
Hope less C6
How long more Justin T government will take to pass this
New immigration minister is another drama person
The Bill has been in the hands of the Senate for quite a while now, I am not sure what you expect Justin T and his government to do? Even the minister of immigration has zero impact on C6 at the moment.
 

subha_1962

Hero Member
Dec 20, 2013
265
24
They Can if they want to. This is from a government website


http://www.parl.gc.ca/About/House/Compendium/web-content/c_g_legislativeprocess-e.htm

Since most government bills originate in the House of Commons, the Government sometimes requests that the Senate consider a bill as quickly as possible. The Rules of the Senate of Canada provide for a procedure known as pre-study whereby the subject matter of a bill that has been introduced in the House of Commons but has not yet been sent to the Senate is sent to a Senate standing committee. In this way, the Senate can consider the bill and form its opinion even before it receives the bill from the House of Commons. When the bill is received, the Senate is then in a position to adopt or amend it within a very short time frame.
 

marcher

Hero Member
Mar 30, 2016
534
61
subha_1962 said:
They Can if they want to. This is from a government website


http://www.parl.gc.ca/About/House/Compendium/web-content/c_g_legislativeprocess-e.htm

Since most government bills originate in the House of Commons, the Government sometimes requests that the Senate consider a bill as quickly as possible. The Rules of the Senate of Canada provide for a procedure known as pre-study whereby the subject matter of a bill that has been introduced in the House of Commons but has not yet been sent to the Senate is sent to a Senate standing committee. In this way, the Senate can consider the bill and form its opinion even before it receives the bill from the House of Commons. When the bill is received, the Senate is then in a position to adopt or amend it within a very short time frame.
They can request for urgency when it is an urgent bill; but C6 does not constitute any matter of urgency. Our inconvenience as applicants would never pass the tests of urgency. If anything, this is a bill meant to cancel what the Cons achieved, so it is obvious from day one that there will be push back. Cons nor any other party would never just accept a bill that undermines what they achieved in the previous government; they will delay and debate it until they run out of ammunition. This is just the way the system is, nothing personal from either side.

I personally think the method of using a bill such as C6 to cancel C24 was not the best option to start with. Not just because it will take forever, but also because once it becomes law, C6 is only as good as it is in place. In other words, nothing would stop a future government from issuing a new bill to bring back C24 provisions. A Supreme Court decision would have been a better route to put this topic to rest, it would have taken time and cost money, but a way better approach.