Bill C-24 Second Reading on February 27th:

[taleodor]

Cons might have reduced hours on Friday...

Probably, next Monday, torontoism will tell us another Cons' lie.

 

[Matt the Aussie]

well we dont know what is residing in canada. is it 2 out of 5 years like PRs. is it 10 ot of 30 years? we don't even know what the term "residing in canada" means? so it is useless to speculate unless the govt (who people are worried will be enforcing the law) can define the terms of residency.

So you see why this would be quite concerning? The bill doesn't even specify what this means! So the Minister controls:
- Who he/she investigates and why
- The threshold needed to constitute a breach of Intent
- The final judgement of said breach

In essence - Judge, Jury and Executioner...

 

[Tolerance]

Speak for yourself, chakrab. I care about this law because I love Canada, I'm grateful and honoured to be a PR, and I'll be a proud Canadian when I become naturalized -- and as such, I hate dumb stupidity like C-24's Oath of Intent to reside. I hate it if it is just some symbolic thing that the CPC dreamed up to show their base that they do indeed like to kick immigrants in the face, and I hate it if they apply it; I'll hate it if they apply it to all Canadians, which they never would because they would be voted out of office for the next several generations.

Neither does your creepy 'if you're going to stay here, why care?' argument apply to me -- Canada is one of the best places in the world to work in my field, I'd be shooting myself in the foot to leave.

Finally, what you're doing here -- examining personal motivations -- it's what's called the 'ad hominem' fallacy, that it's OK to disregard someone's arguments if you can figure out a personal reason to ignore them.

As for 'wanting citizenship for the perks' what does that even mean? Of course everyone does -- the perks of living in Canada, the perks of becoming Canadian, the perks of travelling the world as a Canadian. People immigrate to Canada because it offers advantages to them. That's why everyone immigrates. I take it you would only respect someone who became naturalized in Albania or Laos, countries where there are no perks at all to being a citizen. (Apologies to Albanians and Laotians, no doubt torontosm will seize on this post as evidence of deep-seated racism).

I will have you know Albanians are known as very tough people you don't want to screw with . So there is a perk there.

I think we need to find the country that has the absolutely worst citizenship to have, offer it through immigration, and because you would be kicking yourself in the face going that route, chakrab would respect you. Citizenship of convenience is to be despised, but citizenship of inconvenience is to be admired (centuries ago, this was called self-flagellation, today, simply masochism; your wife and your kids would love you for it ). There, I coined a silly phrase, now I can join the cons :-[

 

[chakrab]

Speak for yourself, chakrab. I care about this law because I love Canada, I'm grateful and honoured to be a PR, and I'll be a proud Canadian when I become naturalized -- and as such, I hate dumb stupidity like C-24's Oath of Intent to reside. I hate it if it is just some symbolic thing that the CPC dreamed up to show their base that they do indeed like to kick immigrants in the face, and I hate it if they apply it; I'll hate it if they apply it to all Canadians, which they never would because they would be voted out of office for the next several generations.

Neither does your creepy 'if you're going to stay here, why care?' argument apply to me -- Canada is one of the best places in the world to work in my field, I'd be shooting myself in the foot to leave.

Finally, what you're doing here -- examining personal motivations -- it's what's called the 'ad hominem' fallacy, that it's OK to disregard someone's arguments if you can figure out a personal reason to ignore them.

As for 'wanting citizenship for the perks' what does that even mean? Of course everyone does -- the perks of living in Canada, the perks of becoming Canadian, the perks of travelling the world as a Canadian. People immigrate to Canada because it offers advantages to them. That's why everyone immigrates. I take it you would only respect someone who became naturalized in Albania or Laos, countries where there are no perks at all to being a citizen. (Apologies to Albanians and Laotians, no doubt torontosm will seize on this post as evidence of deep-seated racism).

lol i think you completely misunderstood my intent. i do respect you for your opinion. what i am saying is that people here seem to only complain that they only have this much time to apply and hope the bill delays till then. not saying it's you. but there are people who are like that. then there are people who say oh well australia or united states has these laws and it's so easy there. that pisses me off. why would someone come to canada then? if one likes australian laws so much, why not move to australia. no disrespect to any country. so till now canada was best suited to them for the perks they wanted, all of a sudden they start bashing canadian laws before they have to wait a year long. i mean who's stopping them from applying to other countries.

 

[on-hold]

I will have you know Albanians are known as very tough people you don't want to screw with . So there is a perk there.

I think we need to find the country that has the absolutely worst citizenship to have, offer it through immigration, and because you would be kicking yourself in the face going that route, chakrab would respect you. Citizenship of convenience is to be despised, but citizenship of inconvenience is to be admired (centuries ago, this was called self-flagellation, today, simply masochism; your wife and your kids would love you for it ). There, I coined a silly phrase, now I can join the cons :-[

I love Albanians and Laotians both! I have many friends in Laos, and I studied with two guys from Kosovo long ago, my wife's in a class with a married couple now . . . I don't think many Albanians will punch me in the face if I point out that Albanian citizenship is perhaps not the most desired in the world

I think that Citizenship of Inconvenience should become a t-shirt or a protest movement or something . . .

 

[paw339]

Talking to my Canadian friends nothing annoys them more about the Canadian immigration system than abuses of the system; people lying on their applications, passports of convenience, new Canadians attacking Canadian troops and interests etc. The number of individuals involved in these abuses may be small but these individuals taint the whole system and reduce support for immigration in general. If you support immigration then stamping out these abuses is essential if you want to keep the general Canadian population supporting the immigration program. Without the support of the majority of the Canadian population what do you think might happen the next time a recession hits and unemployment rises? Just a thought.

Lots of countries have the "intend to reside clause" it doesn't cause any problems, you can change your mind if your circumstances change. The huge fuss over this issue by some individuals does make you wonder whether they already have plans to leave Canada as soon as they get citizenship.

 

[torontosm]

Talking to my Canadian friends nothing annoys them more about the Canadian immigration system than abuses of the system; people lying on their applications, passports of convenience, new Canadians attacking Canadian troops and interests etc. The number of individuals involved in these abuses may be small but these individuals taint the whole system and reduce support for immigration in general. If you support immigration then stamping out these abuses is essential if you want to keep the general Canadian population supporting the immigration program. Without the support of the majority of the Canadian population what do you think might happen the next time a recession hits and unemployment rises? Just a thought.

Lots of countries have the "intend to reside clause" it doesn't cause any problems, you can change your mind if your circumstances change. The huge fuss over this issue by some individuals does make you wonder whether they already have plans to leave Canada as soon as they get citizenship.

Very well said

 

[Hasher]

Im not sure what your point was...
Confusing text ???

daktrader
My point is a Naturalized Citizen (No matter old or new), will live a life of a fear whenever he travelled abroad. They will always fear that if they even Violate the traffic rule of the other country abroad, corrupt authorize can simply book them as terrorist (for any ill reason), the only way during such situation now days is contact the local Canadian Embassy or Consulate for justice, but now after this law, naturalized citizen would prefer to milk that corrupt system rather than contacting the embassy be honest.

You will not understand my point if you never visited those countries as I mentioned above.

 

[Tolerance]

I love Albanians and Laotians both! I have many friends in Laos, and I studied with two guys from Kosovo long ago, my wife's in a class with a married couple now . . . I don't think many Albanians will punch me in the face if I point out that Albanian citizenship is perhaps not the most desired in the world

I think that Citizenship of Inconvenience should become a t-shirt or a protest movement or something . . .

I agree. Wasn't there a guy who wanted a twitter handle so that he could oppose the government that way (a world-changer ). Anyway, it is catchy. You gotta oppose Alexander in a way that he can understand .

 

[chakrab]

So you see why this would be quite concerning? The bill doesn't even specify what this means! So the Minister controls:
- Who he/she investigates and why
- The threshold needed to constitute a breach of Intent
- The final judgement of said breach

In essence - Judge, Jury and Executioner...

they have to make it more clear once they pass the law. it has to be date based system like they have for spousal PR. otherwise how will one check if the applicant signed the document 10/20 years from now. intend to stay will mostly end up affecting all immigrants, not just new ones.

 

[chakrab]

daktrader
My point is a Naturalized Citizen (No matter old or new), will live a life of a fear whenever he travelled abroad. They will always fear that if they even Violate the traffic rule of the other country abroad, corrupt authorize can simply book them as terrorist (for any ill reason), the only way during such situation now days is contact the local Canadian Embassy or Consulate for justice, but now after this law, naturalized citizen would prefer to milk that corrupt system rather than contacting the embassy be honest.

You will not understand my point if you never visited the countries I mentioned above.

one way to get rid of the fear is to renounce any other citizenship the person may have and keep canada as the only country of citizenship.

 

[Tolerance]

one way to get rid of the fear is to renounce any other citizenship the person may have and keep canada as the only country of citizenship.

Please do not say that again. Honestly, that is a horrible thing to suggest to people as a solution to the Canadian government screwup.

Canada allows dual citizenship (for many people that was a part of the deal) so please don't tell people to loose their other citizenship. It is very offensive. They have the right to keep it, and this bill should not be used to make people sever ties to their homelands.

I emphasise again, you do not change the contract halfway through it (or a day before the end). A lot of people feel betrayed, because they based their lives on the government's promises, that apparently can change arbitrarily at any moment.

I said this before, this is like what they did to the Natives, taking their children away, and brainwashing them so they could forget who they really were. Culturecide plain and simple.

 

[chakrab]

Please do not say that again. Honestly, that is a horrible thing to suggest to people as a solution to the Canadian government screwup.

Canada allows dual citizenship so please don't tell people to loose it. It is very offensive.

i would never recommend it, just saying it's an option if the person is so worried. options, no matter how offensive to some, are options.

 

[Matt the Aussie]

they have to make it more clear once they pass the law. it has to be date based system like they have for spousal PR. otherwise how will one check if the applicant signed the document 10/20 years from now. intend to stay will mostly end up affecting all immigrants, not just new ones.

Well I'm glad we agree on this, but why not specify what they mean, clearly, in the bill?

 

[Tolerance]

Well I'm glad we agree on this, but why not specify what they mean, clearly, in the bill?

If that is not winning the argument, I don't know what is.

And, really, why do they refuse to specify what they mean? My opinion is they want the latitude so that they can apply the rule to some people, and not to some other people (based on their belief system). There is an article accusing this government of obstructing requests for information based on the access to information act. CIC was number one suspect. So, when asked for information on who they targeted, they would probably ignore it.