Bad news for TFW under food service processing their LMO

[iammikeywithy]

They really should make IELTS mandatory for TFWs

I guess they will include that if they will revise the program...but I hope its not coz IELTS is expensive

 

[torontosm]

But still most of these issues aren't related to immigration. Example of US has repeatedly been quoted. It still has 65k H1B quota for each year for highly skilled jobs despite being a lot larger by population. That work force does contribute to their economy more rather than less, otherwise it (the program) wouldn't have existed. I am sure viewing the state Canada is in, similar programs (if implemented appropriately i.e. fixing all of the misuses cited) would only boost the economy.

I'm glad you raised this. The US, which has a population that is roughly 10x that of Canada, admits 65k "TFW equivalents" each year. Implicitly, Canada's number should then be 6,500. However, in 2013, Canada admitted over 250,000 TFW's. See the problem?

As for contributing to the economy, there are multiple examples of how the influx of TFW's actually results in increased unemployment. Justin Trudeau himself used these stats recently (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/05/06/justin-trudeau-temporary-foreign-workers_n_5273812.html) as examples of how the program needs to be severely curtailed and revamped. TFW's do not benefit the economy in any way as they (1) take jobs away from Canadians; (2) remit most of their earnings to foreign destinations; and (3) sponsor their families, who are entitled to Canadian benefits while only paying marginal taxes on low incomes.

I agree that the entire program can not be generalized, but the truth remains that the bulk of the TFW's are coming for low or unskilled positions. Over 101,000 came from Mexico, Phillipines, Guatemala, Jamaica and India alone, all of which are "developing" countries that export mass labor more than university professors, as you claim. And while you claim that the decision is not ours to give, I respectfully disagree. As a Canadian, making such a decision and influencing policies that shape the future of my country are most definitely my right and responsibility.

 

[jancath410]

I hope this helps those who had questions about getting WP at the border.
▼ 3) Does this moratorium affect temporary foreign workers already in Canada or about to come to Canada?

Temporary foreign workers already in Canada who have a valid work permit issued under a Food Services Sector LMO may continue working as per their present work permit conditions.
Temporary foreign workers who have been approved for a work permit by Citizenship and Immigration Canada (CIC) but have not yet arrived in Canada will not be affected. They will remain eligible for a work permit at a port of entry, if they are otherwise admissible to Canada.
Foreign nationals who have not yet had a decision made on their work permit application will be affected. Foreign nationals who submitted their work permit application prior to the suspension will be notified that their work permit application is suspended until a final decision is made on the LMO.
Foreign nationals who apply directly at a port of entry, a visa post or inland office for a work permit after their LMO has been suspended cannot be issued a work permit based on that LMO.
Source: http://www.esdc.gc.ca/eng/jobs/foreign_workers/lmo_ref/q_a.shtml

 

[torontosm]

As for the let them shut down part, you and most people might have McDonalds and Timmies in mind but you forget about the smaller businesses, from small chains to local small restaurants and other companies. It might not sound much to you to let them shut down but for me, coming from a country that was completely destroyed by austerity measures and closing companies (Greece), I can assure you it won't be fun for the economy of Canada. The country is in a growth phase (as it should be with such a population) and that means opening more business, not closing them. Canada doesn't have a high unemployment rate. Not even close. This is caused by flawed math and logic touted by the media. There is a baseline percentage in any country with people who are in welfare by choice, making the numbers rise, there is a very significant factor being new PRs etc who just came in and are looking for a job matching their qualifications, also raising the numbers and there are also people who just finished university/college etc and are looking for something on their field and with a good pay, not any survival job and until they find it, they are raising the numbers as well (see: youth unemployment).

According to this, only 10% of small businesses employ TFW's, so I really don't think the impact will be as devastating as you are portraying (http://www.biv.com/article/20140506/BIV0115/305069944/-1/BIV0100/mike-klassen-should-canadas-temporary-foreign-worker-program-be-scrapped)

As for Canada's unemployment rate, according to StatsCan, it is at 7%, which is fairly high. And yes, many PR's that are here do contribute to this, which is exactly why we should not bring in more foreign workers until these PR's secure some employment. In the event that they are not willing to accept survival jobs, we should also reform the welfare program so that they do not receive any government support. By bringing in TFW's while funding PR's who are being picky, we are just compounding the problem. And as a taxpayer, I'm sick of it.

 

[kafka khaos]

As you sow, so shall you reap. When i see uneducated people chanting for jobs requiring higher education and specialized skill, I can't help and respond in the very same manner.

Yes like requiring fluent Mandarin for mine workers in BC. Those silly miners, how dare they ask for a job without being fluent in Chinese! http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/mandarin-required-in-worker-permits-for-b-c-mine-project-1.1152527

Please note that i am NOT AT ALL trying to deny misuse of TFW program IN SOME CASES. But extending that to many generalizations i see put here is beyond any common sense.

Of course we are talking in generalizations. It is a national program that covers all sectors of the country and involves more than half a million workers. Generalizations are the ONLY way totalk about it.

No one supports any one else. No government in the world brings people by taking pity on them. Whether right or wrong, it is decision based upon economic needs of the country. So the notion "we cannot support every worker .." is inherently flawed. Respectfully, it is not yours to give.

I don't believe people work for "the economy". I believe the economy exists to benefit the people. The government exists to work for the benefit of the people. And programs like TFW should only exist if they benefit the people. So we have to ask, is driving up unemployment, driving down wages, and limiting the training of Canadians benefitting Canadians?

Having said that the Royal bank and other issues are very genuine concerns and i fully support canadian rage over those. However, the fact of matter is that government did significantly CHANGED and made the process much more scrutinized to avoid such events. Ask any one who has been through the tfw visa process since that event. The time period from Mar to Late 2013 was a mess for this entire process caused only by the tightening of ropes by government on it. But since it was principally a good decision to fix misuse of program, i understand and accept the delays caused.

I don't believe the givernment has changed anything. I see no evidence they have. Only 4 companies are on the blacklist while we know the cases of abuse are far more wide-spread. We know the government still does not oversee the resumes received, so they have no way of knowing if Canadians applied for the job or not before issuing the LMO. Businesses are still totally free to throw all Canadian resumes in the garbage with impunity.

The remaining of the argument about lowering wages - definitely makes sense WHERE EVER it actually happens. It is not and cannot be the case in most of the highly skilled jobs which is a large population in the TF workers. Hence i humbly ask NOT TO GENERALIZE again.

It will happen in any sector where the wages/benefits paid to the TFW are less than the wages/benefits paid to the Canadian workers. I have no idea what percentage of LMOs fall into that category because the government refuses to keep statistics on thing like that.

Since there is a strong possibility of it hapening, the TFW program should mitigate that danger by design. For example, it should be a requirement that TFW be paid 20% more than Canadians working in that field. This will encourage businesses to find a Canadian first, and only use TFWers if they really truely have no choice. It would also benefit TFWers with better wages. Everyone wins.

 

[beholder69]

According to this, only 10% of small businesses employ TFW's, so I really don't think the impact will be as devastating as you are portraying (http://www.biv.com/article/20140506/BIV0115/305069944/-1/BIV0100/mike-klassen-should-canadas-temporary-foreign-worker-program-be-scrapped)

As for Canada's unemployment rate, according to StatsCan, it is at 7%, which is fairly high. And yes, many PR's that are here do contribute to this, which is exactly why we should not bring in more foreign workers until these PR's secure some employment. In the event that they are not willing to accept survival jobs, we should also reform the welfare program so that they do not receive any government support. By bringing in TFW's while funding PR's who are being picky, we are just compounding the problem. And as a taxpayer, I'm sick of it.

Let's start from your last point and say I completely agree with it. I'm a mechanical engineer and still had no problem starting as a dishwasher in a restaurant instead of just sitting on my ass waiting for a proper job to land on my head from the skies, then became a cashier, then a file maintenance clerk and front end admin in a grocery store and slowly but steadily rising and I'm more than happy with the progress and my life now. That being said, this is also the answer to your point about unemployment. Most of this rate is structured unemployment, which in turn is voluntary. Also 7% is not high, in fact historically Canada has had an average of 7.75% from 1966 till today, so it's currently lower than that and bearing in mind the growth of the country all those years and the influx of new people, rising population etc, this first of all shows that the influx was required and didn't change the conditions in the country and of course means that the TFW program had nothing to do with that. Also if you consider all the above and then take a look at a provincial level, you'll see that Saskatchewan for example has an excellent unemployment rate of (close to) 4%, so it will get very badly affected by stopping the influx of new workers.

Media keep dramatizing everything because it is their job and most often than not their agenda to do so. All problems reported up to now about the TFW program are due to bad/slow/non-existent reaction from the authorities when someone abused its rules. I repeat, its rules, as they pretty much covered everything during the LMO application, wage according to the tables for that specific region in that specific position, posting the job, agreeing to regular checks by the authorities, black lists being some of them.

 

[kafka khaos]

All problems reported up to now about the TFW program are due to bad/slow/non-existent reaction from the authorities when someone abused its rules. I repeat, its rules, as they pretty much covered everything during the LMO application, wage according to the tables for that specific region in that specific position, posting the job, agreeing to regular checks by the authorities, black lists being some of them.

Well the former rule of allowing to pay TFW 15% less was pretty bad. But they have changed that to equal wages (not sure if that is enforced, but its the new rule). It would be beneficial to Canadian workers AND TFWs if the rule was changed to require they be paid 15-20% MORE. This would add an extra incentive for businesses to find Canadian workers and only use TFW if necessary, while giving TFW more money. This would also mitigate the downward pressure on Canadian wages the TFW program currently creates.

But you do have a point about the government completely shrugging off its responsibility to investigate abuse. In fact, they have actually gone to court to argue they dont have to:

"The shocking part of the federal government's position is that if they don't have control over the documents it means that companies can say they've done things that are necessary for them to get their LMOs without having to show that they did so," said Gordon.

"It means that a company could come in and say, 'Hey, no qualified Canadians applied for this job, but we're not going to show you the resumes that we got and you'll just have to accept that.'"

http://thetyee.ca/News/2013/01/15/BC-Chinese-Miners-Ruling/

 

[kafka khaos]

Let's start from your last point and say I completely agree with it. I'm a mechanical engineer and still had no problem starting as a dishwasher in a restaurant instead of just sitting on my ass waiting for a proper job to land on my head from the skies, then became a cashier, then a file maintenance clerk and front end admin in a grocery store and slowly but steadily rising and I'm more than happy with the progress and my life now. That being said, this is also the answer to your point about unemployment. Most of this rate is structured unemployment, which in turn is voluntary. Also 7% is not high, in fact historically Canada has had an average of 7.75% from 1966 till today, so it's currently lower than

The national average is around 7% but for youth the unemployment rate is over 14%. And it is youth that are most impacted by TFWers filling their jobs. http://www4.hrsdc.gc.ca/.3ndic.1t.4r@-eng.jsp?iid=16

It's great you started out as a dishwasher. But good luck to the youth trying to do that today. The door gets slammed in their face because the businesses has already found TFWers who do it for cheaper and also have no labour rights.

 

[beholder69]

Youth unemployment is always higher in all countries, it's due to the reasons I described in one of my previous posts. The more the basic unemployment, the biggest the difference of the youth one. For example in Greece, when the unemployment rate was 20%, the youth one was 60(!). Extreme example but that's how it always goes.

In any case, I agree with the points you raised, I can understand the uproar while the "15% less" was in effect but that's no longer the case and I actually find the idea of paying more for TFWs to be good.

 

[fkl]

It is not equivalent for two reasons:

a) It is ONLY for highly skilled positions vs twp for a long list of categories and professions.
b) I respectfully disagree with the logic of assigning temp workers as a percentage of population. It can be a personal opinion. But economies don't work that way. Canada is a large country by land with far less population. That is why they needed more people and still do more than US.

Most of the people in Canada are Citizens only by a decade or so. Practically almost every one is an immigrant. Had it not been for such immigration policies, most of you won't be here already. So this comparison is inherently flawed.

The rest of the argument is logical that more population of temp workers is for unskilled class with all sorts of associated problems. I never tried defending that and understand the root of the problem. May be a good solution could be to have separate programs like US or (as already suggested) put restrictions like higher pay requirements for such positions.

Last part regarding "decision is not ours to give" is out of context. I don't oppose the fact that Canadians have a right to put their opinions in policies. It was said in response to "we cannot support every worker ..". You are not supporting any one. People work, pay taxes and earn living just like every one else. It is economy. Having an opinion about policy of a country is one thing vs trying to say "we are supporting workers from the rest of the world for their benefit" is really pathetic. Countries are not charities. That is why we are arguing here what is best for Canada and Canadians.

I'm glad you raised this. The US, which has a population that is roughly 10x that of Canada, admits 65k "TFW equivalents" each year. Implicitly, Canada's number should then be 6,500. However, in 2013, Canada admitted over 250,000 TFW's. See the problem?

As for contributing to the economy, there are multiple examples of how the influx of TFW's actually results in increased unemployment. Justin Trudeau himself used these stats recently (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/05/06/justin-trudeau-temporary-foreign-workers_n_5273812.html) as examples of how the program needs to be severely curtailed and revamped. TFW's do not benefit the economy in any way as they (1) take jobs away from Canadians; (2) remit most of their earnings to foreign destinations; and (3) sponsor their families, who are entitled to Canadian benefits while only paying marginal taxes on low incomes.

I agree that the entire program can not be generalized, but the truth remains that the bulk of the TFW's are coming for low or unskilled positions. Over 101,000 came from Mexico, Phillipines, Guatemala, Jamaica and India alone, all of which are "developing" countries that export mass labor more than university professors, as you claim. And while you claim that the decision is not ours to give, I respectfully disagree. As a Canadian, making such a decision and influencing policies that shape the future of my country are most definitely my right and responsibility.

 

[fkl]

If you wanna quote a specific mining industry example as a standard over all case, be my guest. There is nothing in THIS instance that i would say was right, so i won't argue at all. But scroll back a bit on forums and you would see posts from people chanting slogans who work in all sorts of low skilled professions who are canadians (no disrespect intended) against highly skilled positions who requirements are not even understandable for them. It is ONLY this attitude that i criticized and still do. Picking up one example of misuse that is accepted improper by every one doesn't solidify an argument.

If a program is designed to cater so much different varieties and you find it rational to discuss problems caused by one subset to extend across entire program, then sure you could have your opinion. No one can stop one for holding one. But governments are more rational than this. At worst, they would introduce different programs each catering to a different kind of population (which would still address what i have been trying to do here) OR they would put more restrictions on the general program or try enforcing its implementation which is not an issue to me either.

Similarly, every one can have opinions about economy. But one thing is absolutely undisputed. Government takes a decision for their own sake (whether for their people, or economy), they never do it for the betterment of any other nation in the world. My point was only that a highly skilled position often helps with creating more jobs. That is another reason govt of Canada has started PR programs for Entrepreneurs too. Yes net effect of temp foreign worker programs might be negative because probably more of those are low skilled. However, they are NOT THE ONLY POPULATION covered in this stream. That was my single point of argument regarding NOT generalizing.

Well no matter what government changes, seeing such issues in media is not the only criteria for knowing whether government did any thing or not.

You probably have no idea about the requirements added to the process and the procedures these programs would made employers and employees go through now as compared to just a year ago. So it is easier to claim government hasn't done any thing. Try getting stats from LMO processing authority HRDSC etc. and you would know.

Rest of the argument, i fully support i.e. for one government should have shown more transparency to people to keep them better informed and make decisions statistically better in the interest of Canadians and introducing the idea of higher wages is pretty good too. Let me just add that it probably already exists in high skilled positions. A person performing a role in another country worth very well doesn't come here on an ordinary pay. Usually it is good enough to make him take that choice and when discussed with Canadians of similar background (age, qualification and experience) BUT LACKING the specific skill set, it is far better. Perhaps formalizing this as a policy would really help. Because it would only be done for positions really needed (which is already the case for employers doing it right) and reduce the rightful concerns of Canadians regarding unemployment.

Yes like requiring fluent Mandarin for mine workers in BC. Those silly miners, how dare they ask for a job without being fluent in Chinese! http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/mandarin-required-in-worker-permits-for-b-c-mine-project-1.1152527

Of course we are talking in generalizations. It is a national program that covers all sectors of the country and involves more than half a million workers. Generalizations are the ONLY way totalk about it.

I don't believe people work for "the economy". I believe the economy exists to benefit the people. The government exists to work for the benefit of the people. And programs like TFW should only exist if they benefit the people. So we have to ask, is driving up unemployment, driving down wages, and limiting the training of Canadians benefitting Canadians?

I don't believe the givernment has changed anything. I see no evidence they have. Only 4 companies are on the blacklist while we know the cases of abuse are far more wide-spread. We know the government still does not oversee the resumes received, so they have no way of knowing if Canadians applied for the job or not before issuing the LMO. Businesses are still totally free to throw all Canadian resumes in the garbage with impunity.

It will happen in any sector where the wages/benefits paid to the TFW are less than the wages/benefits paid to the Canadian workers. I have no idea what percentage of LMOs fall into that category because the government refuses to keep statistics on thing like that.

Since there is a strong possibility of it hapening, the TFW program should mitigate that danger by design. For example, it should be a requirement that TFW be paid 20% more than Canadians working in that field. This will encourage businesses to find a Canadian first, and only use TFWers if they really truely have no choice. It would also benefit TFWers with better wages. Everyone wins.

 

[stopDA]

They really should make IELTS mandatory for TFWs

What if English is your first language? Should you require IELTS then? That test is freaking expensive.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

Most of the people in Canada are Citizens only by a decade or so. Practically almost every one is an immigrant. Had it not been for such immigration policies, most of you won't be here already. So this comparison is inherently flawed.

Only about 20% of Canada's population is foreign-born, so you can hardly say that "almost everyone is an immigrant". Your argument as a whole loses credibility when you state baseless "facts" like that.

 

[fkl]

Only about 20% of Canada's population is foreign-born, so you can hardly say that "almost everyone is an immigrant". Your argument as a whole loses credibility when you state baseless "facts" like that.

I never read this statistically any where nor vouched for this. But on one side every one says Canada has far less population say as compared to US and has arguably been among the countries with most immigration (possibly highest) since mid 90's. Combining those with cries of "hundreds of thousands of immigrants" each year doesn't really add up along that 20% line of reasoning. At the very least compared to any other random picked country in the world, Canadian culture is considered most diverse because most of people here came from some where at some point or their parents did so.

I never tried distinguishing it with being born here or not. Neither tried stating it like a fact. It is the general perception that i always heard from Canadians themselves.

Irrespective, this one stance had little to nothing to do with the rest of the discussion. May be it hurt an ego or two, so the only thing one found stated as a FACT was this.

To me none of this is / or was a fact. These are all opinions and discussions. If statistics are brought some where, people quote a reference. I don't remember having done any, nor one was needed.

 

[Singham]

Ok dear all

You all having great knowledge. plz let me know what will happen next . My file is under process since 6 months. Noc code 6661 in Abudhabi. Will it be reached at final decision or not???

and any news about when this moratorium is going to end.