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Applying on Day of Eligibility

Bigfoot3

Member
Nov 23, 2016
19
0
I'm eligible to apply today for citizenship and my application is ready, I'm going on a trip so I figure its best to do it before I leave (which is tomorrow evening).

I've heard that with self-employed people they sometimes make them do a residence questionnaire, and I've heard of people saying that they should have a buffer of eligibility before they apply.

Any thoughts, I was planning of staying in warmer climes for a couple of months but if I need to have that buffer I'll need to come back in late Dec and stay for a few weeks to and apply after I'm few weeks into the buffer. I work online as well if that's relevant. I've been accurate with my residence calculator..

What are best practices in this case? My total days out of the country since I got PR has been less than 190 in the last 4 years.

Also, should i send in all photos of the passport or just the biographical photos.
 

thecoolguysam

VIP Member
May 25, 2011
4,822
384
Canada
Bigfoot3 said:
I'm eligible to apply today for citizenship and my application is ready, I'm going on a trip so I figure its best to do it before I leave (which is tomorrow evening).

I've heard that with self-employed people they sometimes make them do a residence questionnaire, and I've heard of people saying that they should have a buffer of eligibility before they apply.

Any thoughts, I was planning of staying in warmer climes for a couple of months but if I need to have that buffer I'll need to come back in late Dec and stay for a few weeks to and apply after I'm few weeks into the buffer. I work online as well if that's relevant. I've been accurate with my residence calculator..

What are best practices in this case? My total days out of the country since I got PR has been less than 190 in the last 4 years.

Also, should i send in all photos of the passport or just the biographical photos.
Buffer is a must 1- 2 months ideally. Self employment and applying exactly on eligibility date may lead to RQ. Even though you are 100% sure about your trips, still apply with extra buffer. Also, send whatever is according to the checklist. If CIC needs anything later, they will contact you.
 

Bigfoot3

Member
Nov 23, 2016
19
0
Thanks for the answer....

This sucks but I guess I'll have to come back around holiday time to spend 3-4 more weeks here....
 

Bigfoot3

Member
Nov 23, 2016
19
0
What are the chances of issues with an application on day of eligibility if all the data for time out of the country is 100% accurate, because I've been very thorough with that.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,468
3,219
Impressions matter.

Current minimum presence requirement is an absolute minimum. One day short, IRCC is, in effect, prohibited from granting citizenship.

To be clear, applying with no buffer at the least gives the impression there is a possibility the applicant was outside Canada one of the days the applicant reports he or she was in Canada. Not only is there a risk of RQ, there is a risk IRCC could conclude the applicant did not meet the burden of proving all the days present.

Meeting the burden of proving 1460 days of actual presence is what really matters. Almost everyone depends on IRCC inferring the applicant was in Canada between the last reported date of entry and the next reported date of exit . . . that is, that the applicant was in Canada between reported travel dates. Work and address history help IRCC be more comfortable in making such an inference.

Does not take much, however, to put a chip or crack in that inference.

Not sure why so many think it might be a good idea to cut it so close for such an important thing. It is not a good idea.

How much of a buffer one should have is very individual, personal to the specific person's history, circumstances, and other factors. Self-employment tends to be a factor which warrants not applying unless and until one is not just confident of one's eligibility but is confident the case is a strong case.

BTW: been there, done that, self-employed and waited to apply with a big buffer, got NO RQ, took oath of citizenship in eight months after applying. (I was a 3/4 rule applicant.)

On the other hand, I have watched scores and scores of others wallow in non-routine processing in the meantime, some for several years. Some get denied. The applicant who applies with exactly 1460 days presence may be required to actually prove he or she was in Canada for all those 1460 days. If IRCC imposes RQ, documenting travel dates is not enough.
 

thecoolguysam

VIP Member
May 25, 2011
4,822
384
Canada
Bigfoot3 said:
What are the chances of issues with an application on day of eligibility if all the data for time out of the country is 100% accurate, because I've been very thorough with that.
I still recommend to have buffer of 1 to 2 months even though you are sure about your outside Canada travel.
 

Coffee1981

Star Member
Jun 29, 2016
136
11
thecoolguysam said:
I still recommend to have buffer of 1 to 2 months even though you are sure about your outside Canada travel.
Agree X1,000. All it takes is for one check to CBSA to notice your plane landed at 5 minutes after midnight on one trip 3 years ago to screw you over. Highly, highly advisable to build in a buffer. You don't want to have wasted all your time and money over something silly.
 

Bigfoot3

Member
Nov 23, 2016
19
0
Thanks for all the helpful advice. I really appreciate it. Booking my return ticket right now.

Should 15-20 days of buffer time be enough or should I plan for 30-35 days?
 

Bigfoot3

Member
Nov 23, 2016
19
0
thecoolguysam said:
I still recommend to have buffer of 1 to 2 months even though you are sure about your outside Canada travel.
Thanks. I'm thinking of having a 15-20 day buffer as opposed to your recommendation of 1-2 months. Is that a bad idea on my part or is 15-20 days still solid.
 

Coffee1981

Star Member
Jun 29, 2016
136
11
Bigfoot3 said:
Thanks. I'm thinking of having a 15-20 day buffer as opposed to your recommendation of 1-2 months. Is that a bad idea on my part or is 15-20 days still solid.
That should be enough.
 

Bigfoot3

Member
Nov 23, 2016
19
0
So it's been over a month of buffer time...

I'm thinking of applying in Early Feb (which is basically 5 to 6 weeks of buffer time after I became eligible).

Is it a bad idea to take a month long trip out of the country after I apply? Will I miss important requests for further documents... and if I do take a month to get back to them does that look really bad to them?

I do have a family member at the house who can let me know if something comes up. If its something really urgent I can fly back.

What's the deal with traveling when I've submitted my citizenship application? Is that not advised? Or can I still spend a few months out of the country, or will that lead to a RQ.

(I was out of country for around 3 months last year).
 

Bigfoot3

Member
Nov 23, 2016
19
0
dpenabill said:
Impressions matter.

Current minimum presence requirement is an absolute minimum. One day short, IRCC is, in effect, prohibited from granting citizenship.

To be clear, applying with no buffer at the least gives the impression there is a possibility the applicant was outside Canada one of the days the applicant reports he or she was in Canada. Not only is there a risk of RQ, there is a risk IRCC could conclude the applicant did not meet the burden of proving all the days present.

Meeting the burden of proving 1460 days of actual presence is what really matters. Almost everyone depends on IRCC inferring the applicant was in Canada between the last reported date of entry and the next reported date of exit . . . that is, that the applicant was in Canada between reported travel dates. Work and address history help IRCC be more comfortable in making such an inference.

Does not take much, however, to put a chip or crack in that inference.

Not sure why so many think it might be a good idea to cut it so close for such an important thing. It is not a good idea.

How much of a buffer one should have is very individual, personal to the specific person's history, circumstances, and other factors. Self-employment tends to be a factor which warrants not applying unless and until one is not just confident of one's eligibility but is confident the case is a strong case.

BTW: been there, done that, self-employed and waited to apply with a big buffer, got NO RQ, took oath of citizenship in eight months after applying. (I was a 3/4 rule applicant.)

On the other hand, I have watched scores and scores of others wallow in non-routine processing in the meantime, some for several years. Some get denied. The applicant who applies with exactly 1460 days presence may be required to actually prove he or she was in Canada for all those 1460 days. If IRCC imposes RQ, documenting travel dates is not enough.
If you don't mind me asking, how big was your buffer?
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,468
3,219
Bigfoot3 said:
If you don't mind me asking, how big was your buffer?
I applied when the requirement was 1095 days of residence and the relevant time period was four years, total 1460 days. I applied with over 1400 days of actual physical presence (buffer well over 300 days), but that was also well over a year and a half beyond the date I initially passed the 1095 day threshold, just that I continued to travel abroad. (In other words, I was eligible and could have applied more than 500 days sooner than I did. But my margin at the time of applying was around 320 or so days.)

That is NOT a good example for how long anyone else should wait. Indeed, how long to wait is a very personal decision which is best made depending on the particular circumstances, including history, for the specific person applying.

The risk of RQ in my situation appeared to be high, and due to the nature of my business (self-employed; all customers/clients being abroad) I apprehended that if issued RQ it could be a long, difficult case. Thus, basically, I waited until a full four years passed beyond the date my business was fully established in Canada (even though it still consisted of exporting what I do to customers/clients abroad), so that if issued RQ my business records would definitively show my place of business only in Canada. Then I simply procrastinated a few more months before sending off the citizenship application. Which was fortuitous since in those few months CIC modified its approach to issuing RQ, and my risk of RQ dropped considerably, and indeed I did not get RQ.

Not all that was known or understood at the time (summer of 2013). Even when I applied it still appeared that an applicant who was self-employed was at elevated risk for RQ, but as was eventually revealed by internal memos obtained in further ATI responses (not ATIP but general access to information requests), and anecdotal reports in the forums, sometime earlier in 2013 the fact of self-employment was no longer an automatic RQ trigger.

Basically I waited until I was certain my application would be RQ bullet proof, which is to say I would have no problem responding to RQ, if necessary, with a submission solidly documenting a paper trail of my life and business IN Canada. And by then, my application sailed through, no RQ, took the oath of citizenship in early 2014.

Actually, the only thing I had leaning against me was the fact that I was self-employed, continuing to do the very same business, for the very same clients I had before coming to Canada . . . change was moving the place I physically did business to Canada. I had lots of other positive factors.

Some people believe that the fewer trips abroad the better. I am not among those. Like almost all other factors, the applicant's travel history is a highly variable factor, and the pattern of travel varies for different people in different circumstances. More than a few applicants have discovered, to their surprise, that declaring no travel abroad sometimes can be more a red flag than frequent travel would be. What makes sense for one person is often very different than it is for another.

In my case, for example, I made regular brief trips abroad throughout the year, each year, and the pattern was perfectly consistent with a person living and working in Canada, consistent with all aspects of who I was . . . and I am confident this sort of pattern is readily recognized by most CIC/IRCC officers . . . which worked in my favour. An incongruous pattern, in contrast, will elevate the risk of at least some additional scrutiny (this could work against some applicants despite the fact their presence declarations are complete and accurate).

If a university professor takes a holiday abroad for three months during summer break that should not cause any concern at all, but if a welder or machine operator working the sort of job where typically employees only get from two to six weeks off total per year reports ten week holidays abroad, that is almost certain to draw attention.

ALL of which emphasizes that when-to-apply varies from person to person.

The only general guideline is that it is better to have a margin for at least a couple weeks. I would suggest more, but I approach these sorts of decisions conservatively . . . and cognizant that waiting a month up front might mean becoming a citizen many months or a year sooner. I tend to avoid playing long odds.

But again, some prospective applicants would be wise to wait even longer. And this is particularly so for an applicant whose first year or so in Canada might not be easily documented if RQ is issued. Indeed, it would be prudent for most prospective applicants to assess how strong a case they will be able to make if they are issued RQ . . . kind of hope for the best but plan for the worst . . . before sending off the application.

Example for prospective applicant who could confidently submit an application with a relatively minimum margin:

-- applicant is absolutely certain about the completeness and accuracy of travel history (which means, for anyone who traveled abroad more than a couple times, the PR who kept an ongoing, complete and up-to-date log of all travel, not relying on any other sources for completing the presence calculation)

-- applicant had a full-time job working at a facility in Canada for a readily recognized Canadian employer for at least nearly the entire time the applicant declares he or she was in Canada

-- immediate family also living full time in Canada

In that scenario, applying with a ten day margin will have very good odds of no problem. I'd suggest a twenty or thirty day margin, but one or two days should slide through, so many would probably feel confident with a mere ten day margin.

In contrast, anyone with significant periods of unemployment, anyone self-employed, and anyone who has members of his or her immediate family still living primarily abroad, should probably wait to have longer margin.

What will work for you, or any other particular person, is again a very personal decision to be made depending on all the relevant factors.
 

canvis2006

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Few days buffer at most.
3-4 days is good enough if you're sure and can prove all your return dates to Canada (passport stamps or airline tickets/boarding passes,etc).

Giving months of buffer is unnecessary.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
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To be clear, proof of 1460 days actual presence in Canada will constitute meeting the actual physical presence requirement. It is not necessary to have more than that. There is no required buffer.

But submitting an application which up front persuades IRCC that the applicant was actually physically present for 1460 or more days is what most applicants aim to do, which means submitting an application which at the least gives the impression of being complete, accurate, and meeting all the requirements including the presence requirement. Most applicants aim to submit an application which will result in routine processing and no delays in being granted citizenship.

Beyond that, applicants should be able to actually prove 1460 days actual presence in practice, if IRCC requires it, and ultimately this is what really matters.

One of the more common errors citizenship applicants make is to rely too much on the inference they were in Canada between their last reported date of entry and the next reported date of exit. (There are other more common mistakes, like not following the instructions, or making minor mistakes, but this one is up there among the more common mistakes.)

The Federal Court decisions are rife with cases in which applicants over-estimated the weight given proof of travel dates. In particular, it is very, very difficult to prove a negative. If IRCC has concerns that an applicant may have left or entered Canada on some other date, it can be very difficult for the applicant to prove the negative, that is, that he or she did not exit or enter Canada on any other date.

What IRCC relies on is proof of actual presence: proof of where the PR was living. Proof of where the PR was working or going to school. That is, proof of actually being in Canada, a paper trail of a life living and being active (proof of employment tends to be the best proof of activity) in Canada.



Thus:

canvis2006 said:
Few days buffer at most.
3-4 days is good enough if you're sure and can prove all your return dates to Canada (passport stamps or airline tickets/boarding passes,etc).

Giving months of buffer is unnecessary.
The last thing most qualified applicants want is to have to prove anything more than submitting the original application and answering some routine questions in the documents check interview. It would be foolish to rush applying and end up in non-routine processing, during which the applicant is required to submit additional information and documentation to prove meeting the presence requirement, ultimately resulting in a delay getting citizenship, which delay may be for many months if not a year longer.

A big part of why the consensus favors a good buffer has to do with avoiding non-routine processing. These days a routinely processed application can result in becoming a citizen in merely six months or so, typically not much more.

Sure, applicants with a minimal or almost no buffer can and often are processed as a routine application, no harm done. But there is a greater risk of non-routine processing, and again it would be foolish (if not stupid) to risk having to wait a year more by not waiting just a couple weeks longer to apply. Outcome is the same, citizenship granted, but even the obviously qualified applicants tend to prefer seeing the application processed routinely and more quickly rather than be bogged down in non-routine processing.


In any event, it is NOT true that proof of dates of exit and entry will suffice IF the applicant has to prove qualifications.

Even if the applicant has a buffer of hundreds of days, if IRCC issues RQ (that is, if the applicant is required to prove actual physical presence), the applicant will need to affirmatively, and objectively, document a lot, lot more than dates of travel.

In particular, this is NOT correct:
canvis2006 said:
3-4 days is good enough if you're sure and can prove all your return dates to Canada (passport stamps or airline tickets/boarding passes,etc).
All dates of exit and dates of entry directly prove is that the applicant was in Canada those particular days (be it days the applicant was leaving, or days the applicant was arriving).

Otherwise, dates of exit and dates of entry support an inference that days between last entry and next exit were days in Canada. There are many reasons why IRCC might question such an inference. In particular, such inferences may be subject to further proof of actual presence in Canada during those days.

I recently went into some detail about this in another topic.


dpenabill said:
Let's be clear, it is not necessarily the case that the CBSA travel history report will list all entry and exit data for an individual. And even if it does, IRCC does NOT rely on it for this purpose. Rather, IRCC mostly compares the CBSA travel history to the information provided by the PR, information and stamps in the PR's passport, and other sources of information, looking for possible discrepancies or omissions, that is, for the purpose of verifying the PR's declarations.

In terms of proof, all the record of a date of entry directly proves is that the individual was in Canada that day. That is it. No more than that. It does not prove the person was in Canada the next day, let alone a week or month later, even in the absence of any record of exiting Canada.

Yes, generally IRCC will infer that between a reported date of entry into Canada and the next reported exit date, the PR was IN Canada. But there are many, many potential reasons why IRCC might not make this inference.

And there is the fulcrum: for the application which is routinely processed, which typically means that IRCC has not identified any concern or reason to question the travel history the applicant reports in the presence calculator, IRCC accepts the presence calculator output and the presence calculator's calculation is based on the inference that the PR was in Canada from each reported date of entry until the next reported date of exit.

If the CBSA report is consistent with the applicant's presence calculator declarations, that supports reliance on the applicant's declarations.

But as thecoolguysam observes, there are many things which can trigger IRCC to question the applicant's declared travel history, which can result in the applicant being issued a CIT 0520 request for additional documents (oft times called RQ-lite) or CIT 0171 (the full blown RQ) request for extensive information and a lot more documentation.

One of those things which will typically trigger RQ is not being able to present for examination all passports which could have been used during the relevant time period for calculating presence in Canada. Fact that the CBSA travel history is consistent with the applicant's presence calculation is not likely to preclude RQ in this situation.

Sorry, as much as you or Chrome may believe otherwise, as much as you may insist the CBSA travel history adequately verifies travel dates, the failure to present all possibly used passports will, at the least, significantly elevate the risk being issued RQ.

How this will go for any particular applicant is difficult to predict, but again the odds are more likely there will be RQ when a passport is not produced for inspection at the documents check interview.

Moreover, again, there are many other potential reasons why IRCC might issue RQ. It could be something as slight as IRCC perceiving a difference in the handwriting in signatures on the application, presence calculation, and identification. It could be information an officer at IRCC found for an account in LinkedIn used by someone with the same or similar name. And if IRCC perceives a reason to question presence, the CBSA travel history will not stop IRCC from issuing RQ. It absolutely will not be sufficient proof of presence on its own.


What does being issued RQ mean?

The applicant who is issued RQ must provide an extensive amount of additional information and submit numerous documents which support that information. Part of the changes to the Citizenship Act implemented by Bill C-24 (back in 2014, although many of the changes were not implemented until 2015) make providing this information mandatory, meaning that the failure to provide the requested information and documents can itself be grounds to deny the application.

The key information and documentation required goes to establishing where the applicant lived and where the applicant worked. But other information, including information about family members, about the ownership of property outside Canada, the ownership of any business interests outside Canada, about community or other activities in Canada, must be submitted and can be important as well.

Gaps in documentation to show address or work, such as not submitting proof of paying rent (or otherwise documenting an occupier's interest in the address where the applicant reports living) for a period of time, can lead to IRCC concluding the applicant has failed to prove presence in Canada during that time. The CBSA travel history will not be anywhere near enough to overcome this. That is just how it is.

Any such gap in proof of an occupier's interest in a place to live which corresponds to a period of time for which a passport is not submitted for examination is likely to be particularly problematic. There are many variables involved, and how these things go varies considerably, and a lot depends on how IRCC perceives the applicant's credibility, so here too it is difficult to predict the ultimate outcome . . . but bottom-line, any gap in passport coverage can be a serious issue, any gap in documenting place of residence can be a significant issue, and in conjunction, if relative to the same period of time, the combination can be especially problematic. Strong and objective evidence of working at a Canadian place of business during that time would be the best evidence capable of overcoming such a gap.


Overall:

The main thing is whether or not IRCC perceives a reason to issue RQ, meaning whether or not IRCC perceives a reason to question the applicant's accounting of dates in versus outside Canada. For most applicants the CBSA travel history is consistent with the applicant's presence calculation, and IRCC does not perceive any reason to question the presence calculation. Application approved, citizenship granted.

If IRCC sees a reason to question the presence calculation, the burden is on the applicant to affirmatively prove ACTUAL PRESENCE in Canada. That requires more, a lot more, than a CBSA report consistent with the applicant's declarations. That is just how it is.


However . . . , for the PR who has actually been living in Canada, and who has kept what are essentially the normal and usual records a person ordinarily keeps, providing sufficient documents to prove actual presence in Canada, showing a paper trail of a life actually lived in Canada, should not be all that difficult. And, for an applicant who was working most of the time, it should actually be fairly easy to meet the burden of proving actual presence.