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Applying for PR when already a resident as thought it had expired...

Dandandandan

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Jan 1, 2015
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Thanks again for all the information, there is a lot to take in but it is all very useful. My current thoughts are to cancel the card from which the payment for the FSW application is being taken, the reasoning being that if the payment bounces the app will be returned with no further action. (if this is a bad move please advise)

To give more information as to what happened at the POE:

I first went to the border control official, stated that I was planning on being in Canada for 174 days as I had family who are citizens and a girlfriend who was moving over on a work permit. They asked what I did back in England and whether they had given me the time off for such a trip, to which i replied that I had left. Whether it was because I was here for an unusually long time or because I showed up as PR when they scanned my passport I do not know, but she annotated my landing card in the way that meant I got sent to the immigration desks.

At this desk there were 2 CBSA officials I was talking to as I think the person on the desk was relatively new (complete guess but that was the impression I got). I then explained to them my plan to come over as a visitor, try and get a work and travel visa so I could stay longer and mentioned that I had submitted an application for PR, saying that failing to get the necessary permits I would leave. I also mentioned my family being citizens of Canada and my girlfriend (which one of the officers met as he helped the CBSA officer at the desk she went to process the work permit) coming over to work. I was then asked how my family obtained citizenship and I explained that the were PR who stayed and passed the exam. It was then, when they put my details into the system that I came up as a resident so I was asked about that and I said that I was but it had expired. That was when I was asked if I had ever formally renounced it, which I haven't as I didn't know that was a thing, so was told that, without formally giving it up, I was still a resident, could not be refused entry to Canada and was allowed to work etc. That was when he told me it was actually quite common and I should look into it, I had my passport stamped and was told I could sit down and wait for my girlfriend.

At no point was I asked about residency other than the border agent asking about my job, to which I told her I had resigned, and I answered all questions I was asked honestly.

So that was it, whether I was let through on H&C grounds - girlfriend moving here to work and family that are citizens being a factor as dpenabill reckons or whether it was because I originally said I was coming for 6 months (although I did clearly state my intent to stay longer provided I could get the permits in place to do so) which I guess would satisfy "Is the officer satisfied that the person is, or soon will be, leaving Canada", I am not sure... I was/am still not, that clued up on all this so was a little overwhelmed when I was told I was still a resident and could legally work.

This is as detailed as I can be about what went down at the POE so if you have any more thoughts let me know. dpenabill if this changes anything you have previously been thinking please get back to me.


Thanks
 

Rob_TO

VIP Member
Nov 7, 2012
11,427
1,551
Toronto
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
Seoul, Korea
App. Filed.......
13-07-2012
AOR Received.
18-08-2012
File Transfer...
21-08-2012
Med's Done....
Sent with App
Passport Req..
N/R - Exempt
VISA ISSUED...
30-10-2012
LANDED..........
16-11-2012
Dandandandan said:
Thanks again for all the information, there is a lot to take in but it is all very useful. My current thoughts are to cancel the card from which the payment for the FSW application is being taken, the reasoning being that if the payment bounces the app will be returned with no further action. (if this is a bad move please advise)
If you intend to remain in Canada now 2 years to renew your PR card, I advise you strongly to formally withdraw your FSW application. People cancel PR applications across all streams, all the time, for any number of personal reasons, so it should not be a problem. As soon as you withdraw it, you have a much better chance that no visa officer will start actually processing your file. However the longer you leave the app "active", the greater chance somebody could review it and discover you don't meet RO.

In addition, the earlier you withdraw it the better chance you have of getting refunded for any fees you've paid, or ensuring no fees get charged to you. See here:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?q=108&t=6
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?q=109&t=6

As to why the CBSA officer didn't seem to report you for RO, who knows. If as you say they seemed new or inexperienced, they simply may not have known all the details about PR RO requirements, or their duty to report people in violation of RO to CIC. Personally i've encountered a few instances where CBSA officers didn't quite know the rules properly, and gave incorrect info to me. Or perhaps the officer simply felt sorry for you and let you in, really only they know the true reason.
 

david1697

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Nov 29, 2014
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To dpenabill:

The two cases you cited were irrelevant to OP, I gathered it.

I understand now the purpose you cited them was to explicitly demonstrate that CBSA does not simply waive everyone in or is lax about enforcing RO as poster above suggested. Moreover, there are instances where CBSA erroneously issues removal orders or takes actions that later are ruled to be beyond its' authority.

My take on it (aside from the fact that I think you are correct, the CBSA is NOT lax about enforcing RO) is that the error by CBSA is the least problematic issue immigrant can deal with. As long as the law is on PR' side all one has to do is appeal the case and submit the evidence along with relevant statute of law and make argument based on. Due process of law is upheld in Canada from what I understand reading the Court Rulings.
It's much more complicated when the immigrant is in clear violation of some condition (such as OP is in regards to his RO) and there really isn't any firm defense or excuse per ENF 23 of his prolonged absence, based on the information OP provided so far.

In regards to H&C subject, I guess I understand what the source of confusion is: when you mentioned H&C in context of PR who failed RO you were actually referring to admission guides under ENF 05, specifically section 8.2 where Officers are advised to consider a number of things before they decide to write A44(1) Report.
These are rather basic guidelines which invite CBSA officer to take into account the wide range of circumstances and weigh on scales the impact of taking the action (writing report and likely resulting removal order) versus the degree of personal responsibility of immigrant for infraction. The list is rather long and written in a way that is generous in considering the circumstances of the Immigrant.

It's my assumption, and I might be wrong, that once Immigrant is reported and removal order issued, one may not be given the same degree of consideration under appeals proceedings (though some of those things would be relevant), since to overcome the revocation of PR status one would have to present clear H&C related arguments.
If my assumption is correct then I understand why Immigrants who failed RO are advised that their best bet is to argue their case before CBSA Officer, and once report is issued they are almost guaranteed to loose the appeals (unless CBSA officer clearly erred in his decision, overstepped his authority or strong grounds to argue for H&C waiver exist).

In regards to OP experience at the border, his previous posts did not clearly indicate or describe what examination he was subjected to at the border. He generated a response only in reply to questions I posted (and after I posted those questions) where he clarified and shared more details about his personal experience at the border. That information was not there prior to his posting it and thus it was being speculated and, to some degree, reasonably inferred (after reading ENF 05 I understood what were the grounds for you to make some of the inferences).

You state “CBSA does not simply waive through a person who appears to be in breach of the PR Residency Obligation”, but how does one appear to be in breach , unless examined (or unless there are some glaring and obvious signs of a breach)?

If CBSA asks questions (as it's mandated per ENF 05), then I see steps by which the breach of RO breach could be determined in nearly all cases (Q1. What is your Nationality? If not Canadian, is it one that is Visa Exempt? If not what is your status in Canada? If PR when did you last time leave Canada? And etc.).

However, it is still not clear to me whether discovery of PR would be mandatory and subsequent examination of RO would be as likely when one is Visa Exempt. Regulations in ENF 05 state that “The fact that officers have the discretionary power to decide whether or not to write an
inadmissibility report does not mean that they can disregard the fact that someone is, or may be,inadmissible”. See 8.1. Considerations before writing an A44(1) report.

Reading that particular regulation it's not clear why would CBSA Officer be mandated to continue examination (keep asking questions about status and residency), once the National was determined to be Visa Exempt and not inadmissible (unless criminal and security grounds exist).
Because by not conducting further examination they are NOT disregarding the fact that someone is, or may be, inadmissible (at that point the admissibility is already determined).
That's why I asked OP about his individual experience and also asked others on the board to see what their reading of Regulation 8.1 is in the context of admission of PR from Visa Exempt country.
After response posted by OP it's clear that he in particular was sent to secondary inspection (which is a rare thing, according to CIC manuals, and makes me wonder what really transpired during his admission. Note when OP states "It was then, when they put my details into the system that I came up as a resident", referring to being questioned and examined at secondary inspection, and earlier only guesses that PIL officer may have sent him to secondary due to his PR status, mentioning other possibility as well. See "Whether it was because I was here for an unusually long time or because I showed up as PR when they scanned my passport I do not know, but she annotated my landing card in the way that meant I got sent to the immigration desks." ).
In any event,the question I raised (why would CBSA be mandated to continue examination under ENF 05 Sec. 8.1 once admissibility was determined) still stands.

You further state “My sense, however, is that what amounted to, in effect, being given a pass by the examining CBSA officer, probably continues to get the OP a pass unless and until there is some other event triggering a Residency Examination. For example, the OP should NOT apply for a new PR card until the 730 obligation is clearly met.”

My question is: what in particular makes you feel that FSW application (in so far as it subjects the records and status of immigrant to be fully scrutinized) is not likely to have nearly the same effect as examination of applicant who applied for PR card or sponsored his girlfriend? Notice that I am not saying “It will”, I am just asking what makes you think it will not.
I was first going to ask you why at all do you believe that “being given a pass by the examining CBSA officer” protects one from scrutiny by another officer in the context of reviewing an application for a separate benefit, but then I saw you mention PR card and sponsorship ,both indisputably causing the Residency Examination, hence asked the question above.

In regards to "admissibility" of a PR compared to a Foreign National” , it's clear that one can not be a Visitor and PR, for Immigration purposes , at the same time. One is either Visitor or PR. (we do know though that for Customs purposes one who is PR can be considered a Visitor, and we know PR's are treated as visitors for other purposes, if briefly visiting and not moving permanently over to Canada , but that goes beyond the admissibility subject you raised).

While impossibility of holding Visitor/PR status or being admitted as both (for immigration purposes) is clear, it is not so obvious why OP was inadmissible at all as Visa Exempt National , on the mere account of also being a PR? Note, I am not asking why OP couldn't be admitted as BOTH PR and Visitor at the same time. I am asking, why his being a PR would make him inadmissible as Visa Exempt National?

Also, a curious question arises in this context (not applicable to OP, but curious still): what would happen to OP IF PIL officer admitted him as UK Visitor based on his exemption? Suppose that the entrant was not properly identified by PIL officer as also holding a PR status in Canada and was just welcomed in as a visitor. Would legal ramifications he would have if what he thought was going to happen actually had happened?

But more importantly (and I have raised this subject earlier), what would mandate the CBSA to ask additional questions to determine the PR status of immigrant once his admissibility (UK National) was established?

Also, you state “a PR identified at the POE as inadmissible due to a breach of the residency obligation was....” and this leads me to examine another aspect of this subject.
PR is NOT inadmissible, even if in clear breach of RO , UNLESS the PR status is revoked.
In other words, PR can't be inadmissible on the sole account of failing RO. To become inadmissible his breach must be reported and the revocation of status be effective (which does not happen until after removal order entered or appeal is lost). So, for as long as PR remains a PR (and it can take a year after the initial report of breach by CBSA), the PR is still admissible.
Which leads me to ask the same question I asked about UK National earlier: is Section 8.1 of ENF 05 even applicable to PR in a sense that CBSA is mandated to conduct further examination after determining admissibility?
And if not, could this be a plausible explanation of why some PR's in breach of RO are admitted by CBSA without being reported? Which, by the way, was my initial assumption, that CBSA is exercising its' lawfully authorized discretion and makes a choice of whom to subject to thorough scrutiny and whom to waive in without much examination. But it is not clear at this point , just as the reason why exactly UK National (who is Visa Exempt and “rarely sent to secondary” per CIC guidelines, as opposed to other Foreign Nationals and Canadian PR's from non-exempt countries) was sent to secondary once his admissibility was established. One could speculate that UK id scan had shown to PIL officer that the OP is also a PR, and lack of claim to PR by OP may have triggered the referral to secondary, but it's not certain.
 

david1697

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To OP:

Thank you for the additional details shared.

While it helps us to better understand what happened to you during the inspection by CBSA, we may still not be able to answer the questions you asked in your OP, because there are issues that are beyond our knowledge and expertise.

And even details you provide do not make certain things clear, such as: why were you sent to secondary inspection as a Visa Exempt National, which is a rare thing to happen for someone from UK. It could be that your PR status triggered PIL officer to send you to secondary, but from your own description of events it is in secondary inspection that your PR status came up. So, it's not exactly clear what triggered PIL officer to send you to secondary. And it tells me there could be other things and details pertaining to your admission encounter that either were not made known to you, as part of internal procedures, or you do not recall them.

Most importantly, neither of posters who responded to you knows whether processing of your pending FSW application would trigger the examination of your residency (that it would be denied because you are a PR we all agree on. But beyond that little is certain). And that's really where I think your trouble may come from in connection to your breach of RO.
Assuming you were admitted and CBSA officers decided not to report you, if you had no pending FSW application all you would have to worry about would be to stay and work, as dpenabill suggested. But, as it stands, it's not certain if following such course of action will secure your PR status, nor anyone knows for sure what positive effect withdrawal of FSW will have, if any (it could possibly trigger even more scrutiny, but we are only speculating at this point because we don't know).

What you do is up to you of course.

I can tell only what I think someone in your circumstances would be wise to do.

In my opinion it would be prudent to consult the seasoned immigration attorney in Canada, really good one, with many years of experience , someone who has seen large number of cases in his experience , attends liaison meeting with CIC officials and keeps himself updated of all the changes and updates to CIC policies and practices. You would then get the expert opinion and know whether not doing anything other than staying and working is your best option, and whether pending FSW can trigger RO examination. The cost of consultation is really negligible compared to the cost of erring and not doing what one should.

It would also be helpful to request the full record of your immigration file, or just the portion relevant to CBSA, and find out as much as possible about what happened during your last admission to Canada.
 

Rob_TO

VIP Member
Nov 7, 2012
11,427
1,551
Toronto
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
Seoul, Korea
App. Filed.......
13-07-2012
AOR Received.
18-08-2012
File Transfer...
21-08-2012
Med's Done....
Sent with App
Passport Req..
N/R - Exempt
VISA ISSUED...
30-10-2012
LANDED..........
16-11-2012
david1697 said:
why were you sent to secondary inspection as a Visa Exempt National, which is a rare thing to happen for someone from UK.
It's not rare at all, and actually in OPs case how he described the interaction seemed to warrant a trip to secondary. Consider:
- he was requesting just under maximum stay of 6 months
- has family in Canada
- has gf coming to stay long-term in Canada
- quit his job in the UK

The purpose of secondary is to ensure the traveler is not intending to "live" or "move" to Canada and overstay their initial status allowed, or would need to work illegally. However his situation shows that he would have many reasons to possibly overstay. Quitting his job is perhaps the main reason as the CBSA officer asked a direct question regarding his employment. Another question they usually ask is if the traveler has a return flight ticket dated 6-months away or earlier, but not sure if that happened in this case.

We have seen many cases in the family class and visitors to Canada section of forum, where visa-exempt travelers are refused entry due to risk they are "moving" to Canada to live permanently with their significant other. Some US citizens do not help their case by trying to drive across the border with a Uhaul full of their belongings.

I wouldn't say either it's more or less likely for a visa-exempt vs visa-required traveler to be pushed to secondary. In the case of a visa-required traveler, before even arriving in Canada they have already presented their case to a Canadian visa office abroad where a CIC officer has already reviewed their case and deemed them approved for a TRV. So they have already been pre-screened for admissibility, whereas the visa-exempt traveler has not had any pre-screening done.


nor anyone knows for sure what effect withdrawal of FSW will have, if any (it could possibly trigger even more scrutiny, but we are only speculating at this point because we don't know).
Actually if you follow the rules as stated in the OP manual bulletins, the processes a visa officer follows upon request to withdraw an app is quite clear and straightforward. There are specific instructions an officer is to follow upon receipt of a withdraw request: to simply load the appropriate code designating an applicant requested withdraw (I believe PSDEC notations but that could be outdated), close the file, issue a refund if processing hadn't started yet (if applicable), and send applicant an acknowledgement of withdrawal.
See here for some procedural verbage:
- http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/bulletins/2009/ob120.asp
- also the OP-6B Operation Manual, which seems to have been taken down recently in lieu of new FSW rules

What you will not find in ANY OP manual/bulletin, in ANY of the immigration streams available, is ANY wording indicating requests to withdraw an app will result in further analysis into the application. Nor has there been any cases i'm aware of that show someone with a withdrawn app has gone on to further analysis. Any suggestion of the sort, is purely your invention.

And considering the 2 options presented:
- don't withdraw app and wait until a visa officer actually begins to review it, determine PR status and then find him ineligible
- withdraw the app, closing the file before anyone has done any review
... common sense dictates overwhelmingly that the 2nd option is the safer choice

As I stated above, applicants withdraw apps all the time for any number of personal or other reasons, and CIC offers full refunds on withdrawn apps if they haven't started processing. CIC does not question reasons for a withdraw, they just acknowledge it happens and that is it.
 

david1697

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Rob_TO said:
It's not rare at all, and actually in OPs case how he described the interaction seemed to warrant a trip to secondary. Consider:
- he was requesting just under maximum stay of 6 months
- has family in Canada
- has gf coming to stay long-term in Canada
- quit his job in the UK

The purpose of secondary is to ensure the traveler is not intending to "live" or "move" to Canada and overstay their initial status allowed, or would need to work illegally. However his situation shows that he would have many reasons to possibly overstay. Quitting his job is perhaps the main reason as the CBSA officer asked a direct question regarding his employment. Another question they usually ask is if the traveler has a return flight ticket dated 6-months away or earlier, but not sure if that happened in this case.

We have seen many cases in the family class and visitors to Canada section of forum, where visa-exempt travelers are refused entry due to risk they are "moving" to Canada to live permanently with their significant other. Some US citizens do not help their case by trying to drive across the border with a Uhaul full of their belongings.

I wouldn't say either it's more or less likely for a visa-exempt vs visa-required traveler to be pushed to secondary. In the case of a visa-required traveler, before even arriving in Canada they have already presented their case to a Canadian visa office abroad where a CIC officer has already reviewed their case and deemed them approved for a TRV. So they have already been pre-screened for admissibility, whereas the visa-exempt traveler has not had any pre-screening done.


Actually if you follow the rules as stated in the OP manual bulletins, the processes a visa officer follows upon request to withdraw an app is quite clear and straightforward. There are specific instructions an officer is to follow upon receipt of a withdraw request: to simply load the appropriate code designating an applicant requested withdraw (I believe PSDEC notations but that could be outdated), close the file, issue a refund if processing hadn't started yet (if applicable), and send applicant an acknowledgement of withdrawal.
See here for some procedural verbage:
- http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/bulletins/2009/ob120.asp
- also the OP-6B Operation Manual, which seems to have been taken down recently in lieu of new FSW rules

What you will not find in ANY OP manual/bulletin, in ANY of the immigration streams available, is ANY wording indicating requests to withdraw an app will result in further analysis into the application. Nor has there been any cases i'm aware of that show someone with a withdrawn app has gone on to further analysis. Any suggestion of the sort, is purely your invention.

And considering the 2 options presented:
- don't withdraw app and wait until a visa officer actually begins to review it, determine PR status and then find him ineligible
- withdraw the app, closing the file before anyone has done any review
... common sense dictates overwhelmingly that the 2nd option is the safer choice

As I stated above, applicants withdraw apps all the time for any number of personal or other reasons, and CIC offers full refunds on withdrawn apps if they haven't started processing. CIC does not question reasons for a withdraw, they just acknowledge it happens and that is it.
1. I was referring to what I have read in ENF 04, Section 7.5 (Page 23, Issue - Citizenship, Question and Rationale) , where it specifically states "It is rare that persons who have a right to enter Canada would be referred to Immigration Secondary." No invention there, just a reference to what you can read if you look into it.

2. Link to OP 6B is broken (Error 404) but I was still able to retrieve it, not on CIC page but cached by Google (must have been removed by CIC recently). OP 120 is said to be expired on CIC page. So, neither source formally exists or is valid for a reference.

Still, I have saved a copy of OP 6B in PDF format. Made search for a word "withdraw" and found 2 references, on Page 9 and Page 17.On page 9 it says "Only use PSDEC 3 when an applicant withdraws their application." On page 17 it says "An applicant may withdraw an application and receive a refund of the cost recovery fee any time before processing of the application begins at the CIO."
PSDEC 3 stands for "Withdrawn (applicant withdraws)".

It seems I can't repeat enough times that I DON'T KNOW what will happen to OP no matter what he does or doesn't do with his pending FSW application. I even used BOLD FONTS to make sure no one misses it.
You see I try to emphasize when I do NOT know something, perhaps you need some really big magnifying glasses before reading my posts.
So, here is one more time for you:
I DON'T KNOW what will happen to OP no matter what he does or doesn't do with his pending FSW application.

Now I know that you know that there is an OP 6B guide (which you weren't able to read) and an expired OP 120 , and that you know that Original Poster can withdraw his application (which I never disputed by the way), and also can get a refund if he does so before processing begins.

What I still don't know though is whether, in the very unique circumstance that this applicant is in now (I don't think there are many people who send FSW applications while being Canadian PR's, at least not many that I have heard about) ,whether his request for withdrawal of FSW will or will not alert CIC to look closer into it to find out why someone who is a PR had filed it in the first place (and I know very well how time and effort consuming it is to file FSW) .
May be it will not trigger anything, yes, may be there is a ZERO chance it will trigger anything, may be there is even a special rule or guideline I am unaware of that specifically prohibits the use of information in FSW to examine anything not directly related to processing of that particular application.
But only because I DO NOT KNOW can I assert something and tell OP "Do this, I strongly recommend you to do this!" ?

No, I can't. Even if I knew I would not advise OP what legal steps to take, because I am not a licensed attorney. But to strongly suggest someone to do something, without any real procedural knowledge or legal expertise at all is a sign of arrogance, and a reckless one in this particular context, since it can potentially lead to people facing some devastating legal consequences that no conscientious person would want to be held responsible for.

Now, let me summarize and reiterate what I stated above, so you get one more chance to read what I have said so many times before:

It's possible that OP can have his request to withdraw be processed by CIC before CIC begins processing his file , and it's possible that neither before, nor during nor after denying/withdrawing his application not ever any adverse action will be taken against him because of pending or withdrawn FSW application (remember the I DON'T KNOW phrase I used repeatedly, so many times? Reminding you, just in case you have already forgotten or entirely missed it)

But just because I don't know doesn't mean I can assert that it will not happen, neither do I agree with your assertion that withdrawing pending FSW application is safest and most reasonable action to take (may be it is, but since I DO NOT KNOW and believe neither do you, I do not agree with you assertion), moreover I believe you have an established tendency to make assertions based on emotional state of your mind and wishful thinking. But that's beyond the scope of my concern.

I just tell OP what I personally think is correct and what I don't know and advise him to consult an attorney for a legal advise and an expert opinion.
 

Rob_TO

VIP Member
Nov 7, 2012
11,427
1,551
Toronto
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
Seoul, Korea
App. Filed.......
13-07-2012
AOR Received.
18-08-2012
File Transfer...
21-08-2012
Med's Done....
Sent with App
Passport Req..
N/R - Exempt
VISA ISSUED...
30-10-2012
LANDED..........
16-11-2012
david1697 said:
1. I was referring to what I have read in ENF 04, Section 7.5 (Page 23, Issue - Citizenship, Question and Rationale) , where it specifically states "It is rare that persons who have a right to enter Canada would be referred to Immigration Secondary." No invention there, just a reference to what you can read if you look into it.
You completely misunderstand that section 7.5. They are saying it's rare for Canadians and PRs to be referred to secondary, not visa-exempt nationals.

The only people who have a "right" to enter Canada are as follows:
7.4. Responsibilities of primary examining officers questioning persons and reviewing documentation to determine whether persons have a right to enter Canada (Canadians, permanent residents and registered Indians) or are foreign
nationals who may be authorized to enter Canada as temporary residents;


Simply being a visa exempt national from the UK, does NOT give you the "right" to enter Canada, entering is a privilege that one must qualify for. The "right" is only for Canadians, PRs and registered Indians. So if the CBSA officer had only seen him as a UK foreign national, he would fall in the "or" category where he must first be authorized to enter Canada as a temporary resident. Hence the push to secondary would not be considered rare.

As for the rest, I was also able to read the cached 6B guide hence why I mentioned it. There are many more guides also that mention withdrawing apps, and across all immigration streams they are consistent in basic process. There is still no mention anywhere in any guide that you can find, indicating further analysis of a withdrawn app that is withdrawn before processing has started is part of regular procedure. As such even suggesting it's possible, is still your very own invention. Sure anything "could" happen and you can basically invent any situation and say it "could" happen, but if it's not supported by anything whatsoever in standard operating procedures, or seen in any historical cases on record, why would it be given much credence?

Do you not agree that if his FSW app proceeds and a visa officer begins review of it, his PR status would be guaranteed to be found out?
And do you not agree that if the FSW app is withdrawn before it's reviewed, then most likely standard protocol would be followed by the visa officer and it would simply be cancelled with no further review? Or even if you think there's a chance it could face further scrutiny, we can all agree that scenario is not guaranteed
So in these 2 cases we see one guaranteed discovery of PR status, and one possible discovery. Hence the reason I would strongly recommend the latter. Again my reasoning is well explained, and the OP can then take that any way he wants.

People give their advice and opinions all the time on this and other message boards, and the majority of people that ask questions here are looking for other poster's advice and opinions. It's up to the OP (and any other person that asks a question) to read what people suggest to him, their reasoning behind it, and see if it's something they agree with. It would be one thing if I simply suggested for him to do something "just because", but I try to explain in great detail all the reasoning behind it.

Unfortunately also in the family class section of the forum there are literally hundreds of stories of people being screwed over by lawyers who they have paid lots of money to, yet have then given them completely wrong or contradictory advice to how CIC and the application process actually works, causing immense hardships. While it is always good to get professional advice, it can't be overstated enough that before going to a lawyer you know for sure that they are reputable and experienced.
 

david1697

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Rob_TO said:
You completely misunderstand that section 7.5. They are saying it's rare for Canadians and PRs to be referred to secondary, not visa-exempt nationals.

The only people who have a "right" to enter Canada are as follows:
7.4. Responsibilities of primary examining officers questioning persons and reviewing documentation to determine whether persons have a right to enter Canada (Canadians, permanent residents and registered Indians) or are foreign
nationals who may be authorized to enter Canada as temporary residents;


Simply being a visa exempt national from the UK, does NOT give you the "right" to enter Canada, entering is a privilege that one must qualify for. The "right" is only for Canadians, PRs and registered Indians. So if the CBSA officer had only seen him as a UK foreign national, he would fall in the "or" category where he must first be authorized to enter Canada as a temporary resident. Hence the push to secondary would not be considered rare.

As for the rest, I was also able to read the cached 6B guide hence why I mentioned it. There are many more guides also that mention withdrawing apps, and across all immigration streams they are consistent in basic process. There is still no mention anywhere in any guide that you can find, indicating further analysis of a withdrawn app that is withdrawn before processing has started is part of regular procedure. As such even suggesting it's possible, is still your very own invention. Sure anything "could" happen and you can basically invent any situation and say it "could" happen, but if it's not supported by anything whatsoever in standard operating procedures, or seen in any historical cases on record, why would it be given much credence?

Do you not agree that if his FSW app proceeds and a visa officer begins review of it, his PR status would be guaranteed to be found out?
And do you not agree that if the FSW app is withdrawn before it's reviewed, then most likely standard protocol would be followed by the visa officer and it would simply be cancelled with no further review? Or even if you think there's a chance it could face further scrutiny, we can all agree that scenario is not guaranteed
So in these 2 cases we see one guaranteed discovery of PR status, and one possible discovery. Hence the reason I would strongly recommend the latter. Again my reasoning is well explained, and the OP can then take that any way he wants.

People give their advice and opinions all the time on this and other message boards, and the majority of people that ask questions here are looking for other poster's advice and opinions. It's up to the OP (and any other person that asks a question) to read what people suggest to him, their reasoning behind it, and see if it's something they agree with. It would be one thing if I simply suggested for him to do something "just because", but I try to explain in great detail all the reasoning behind it.

Unfortunately also in the family class section of the forum there are literally hundreds of stories of people being screwed over by lawyers who they have paid lots of money to, yet have then given them completely wrong or contradictory advice to how CIC and the application process actually works, causing immense hardships. While it is always good to get professional advice, it can't be overstated enough that before going to a lawyer you know for sure that they are reputable and experienced.
Regarding guaranteed part, nothing is guaranteed when it comes to FSW application, and even if it is then I am not aware of it.
I brought an example of how Adjustment to PR applications are processed in US and how anyone who is removable is pursued by ICE in Immigration Court if they file AOS application while ineligible for it and removable from US.
I pointed out that I DO NOT KNOW how FSW applications are processed in Canada and only asked what if CIC looked at it, found through it that he failed RO and initiated the removal proceedings.
Remember when you were arguing against the possibility, claimed that my questioning of possibility was an assertion of the same and in response you were asserting that there is nothing in regulations to suggest that FSW application would lead to discovery
of RO breach? Now, you adopted an opposite extreme and guarantee that processing of FSW will lead to discovery of RO breach.
I don't think anything is guaranteed, much less when I don't know what exactly is involved in FSW processing by CIC.

As to right of entry, you are right, it indeed applies to Canadian Citizens and PR's.
It's likely , in light of the applicability of the rule and OP description of encounter, that indeed PIL officer sent him to secondary for reasons that we can only speculate about.

People get screwed all the time, not just by lawyers but also by doctors ,and by any business in service of public you can imagine of.
Still, when someone has a sore throat for a month or has condition that possibly may require surgical operation I don't say "Don't go to doctors , they will screw you", but I suggest someone find a good doctor and make an appointment.
AT least if they get screwed by someone licensed and controlled by government they will have chances for some remedy that won't be there if they are screwed by some amateur by walker.
 

Rob_TO

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File Transfer...
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Med's Done....
Sent with App
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VISA ISSUED...
30-10-2012
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16-11-2012
david1697 said:
Regarding guaranteed part, nothing is guaranteed when it comes to FSW application, and even if it is then I am not aware of it.
I brought an example of how Adjustment to PR applications are processed in US and how anyone who is removable is pursued by ICE in Immigration Court if they file AOS application while ineligible for it and removable from US.
And as such i'm sure there are operating procedures you can look up on the US government websites, that would show these rules/procedures. No such ones exist for CIC, and in many aspects USA and Canada are incredibly different in their immigration policies, especially when enforcing RO (for green cards) where the US is much more strict.

And an interesting stat if you look up the Quarterly Administrative Data Releases from CIC, for all streams of PR applications, somewhere inbetween 5-10% of them are withdrawn. So it is definitely not uncommon for someone to do.

Now, you adopted an opposite extreme and guarantee that processing of FSW will lead to discovery of RO breach.
No i said no such thing.
I said having the app continue as-is without withdrawing will guarantee his PR status is discovered. By that I mean they will simply find out that he is a PR. And only once it's determined he's a PR, could a visa officer then choose to proceed with further investigation into RO if they wished to.

Withdrawing the app before it starts processing, gives the best possible chance to avoid altogether that CIC will see he is a PR in the first place. And if they simply withdraw his app and close out the file like every single operation manual states the procedure will be, checking RO will not even be an option to anyone.

So again... one way guarantees CIC will see he's a PR, the other way probably not. Choice is a very logical one, at least to me.

It's likely , in light of the applicability of the rule and OP description of encounter, that indeed PIL officer sent him to secondary for reasons that we can only speculate about.
Yes can give an educated guess, but ultimately only the officer knows. And really the reason is not relevant to his case.
Though I had always thought the PIL officer you encountered could see your PR status as soon as they scan your basic bio data on passport and it's cross referenced to a PR database, but perhaps this is not so easily apparent to them unless you bring it up.

AT least if they get screwed by someone licensed and controlled by government they will have chances for some remedy that won't be there if they are screwed by some amateur by walker.
Sadly the recourse one has if given inaccurate info or a lawyer screws up someone's PR application, is pretty non-existent in Canada. There are lots of cases where lawyers/consultants are reported to CIC or other authorities, and nothing is done or the authorities seem to turn a blind eye. Ones that get the most attention with immigration are the frauds not licensed to begin with. Problem is I think many people don't want to pay very much, so they seek out the ones offering "free" consultations or the lowest advertised fees, which of course doesn't always lead to the best advice.

And for people asking questions on internet message boards (not just here for immigration but on ANY topic you can think of), they should know that random unknown people are giving them feedback. Hence the reason for people here to not just take all advice posted here blindly, and to see the specific reasons why a poster is giving the advice they are. Else in the end you would basically have to refrain from giving any advice whatsoever since ultimately anything can happen when it comes to CIC, but realistically that will not help people here very much.
 

david1697

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Rob_TO said:
And as such i'm sure there are operating procedures you can look up on the US government websites, that would show these rules/procedures. No such ones exist for CIC, and in many aspects USA and Canada are incredibly different in their immigration policies, especially when enforcing RO (for green cards) where the US is much more strict.
The law in US is if you are removable (deportable) then ICE , an enforcement arm of Homeland Security, has a duty to remove you.
In practice, due to limited resources and priorities, enforcement is not as universal as mandated by law.
And, though I don't know what current practice is, it was commonly shared knowledge among immigration attorneys in US that ICE would not pursue non-criminal removable aliens who filed non-immigrant petitions, but it would almost without exception bring to immigration court and enforce removal of all non-criminal removable aliens who applied for Adjustment of status.
There is no law, decree of Congress or printed manual that says "do not enforce the law in case A, but enforce in case B". The Law is: "Infraction C (same in case A as in case B) warrants enforcement". But in practice it was/is enforced in B and not in A.
At best there are Memos (an internal communication from higher officials to lower rank in the field, not a law, not a regulation nor a manual based on either) , and many times those Memos are not even published, so the operational and strategic measures are kept unknown to those who need not know it.
You wouldn't find a "Law" or "Regulation" that spelled what ICE actually does in case A or B, but knowing that infraction C warrants enforcement you would be prudent to anticipate it, especially if you were not aware of internal procedures and directives.

In case with Canadian law, in a nutshell, the OP CAN BECOME REMOVABLE ,or is in fact removable due to breach of RO. CIC has a duty to enforce the law.
Whether ANYONE who is removable (just as OP) actually gets into removal proceedings depends on whether their breach comes to attention of CIC or doesn't. He is at fault and has committed infraction C (stayed outside of Canada for more than 3 years in the past 5 years) , and everyone knows it's an infraction that can ultimately lead to removal.
What will CIC (a counterpart of ICE and USCIS in US) will do to OP who has pending FSW?
I don't know.
But it surely could do either B (enforce, as ICE does in case of AOS applicants in US, and as CIC does in case of PR card renewal, Travel Document and Sponsorship cases in Canada), or do A and not pursue (as common practice was in years past in US when removable non-criminal aliens filed for non-immigrant benefits ).
What CIC will do in a specific case of OP (a removable OP who committed an infraction C and also applied for a benefit, which is currently pending CIC while applicant is removable) and what procedures it has in place to treat such cases (may pursue/enforce, take route B or not pursue/enforce and take route A) I don't know.

Based on that lack of knowledge of exact procedure , but having a knowledge of the existence of the infraction, I raise the possibility of enforcement (however remote it might be) and suggest OP to speak to reputable immigration attorney to find out more about odds and existing practices.

And an interesting stat if you look up the Quarterly Administrative Data Releases from CIC, for all streams of PR applications, somewhere inbetween 5-10% of them are withdrawn. So it is definitely not uncommon for someone to do.
I don't care how many people withdraw petitions, those numbers are irrelevant to the subject.
The subject here is: OP has committed infraction C. And he has pending application with CIC that has all the information CIC needs to discover infraction (and we do know CIC uses some streams of applications to make just such a discovery and enforce the law against that specific infraction C, though we don't know what CIC does with those who file FSW after committing the same infraction).
It is this individual case and circumstance that I raise concern with, not how many people and under what circumstances withdraw petitions.

No i said no such thing.
I said having the app continue as-is without withdrawing will guarantee his PR status is discovered. By that I mean they will simply find out that he is a PR. And only once it's determined he's a PR, could a visa officer then choose to proceed with further investigation into RO if they wished to.

Withdrawing the app before it starts processing, gives the best possible chance to avoid altogether that CIC will see he is a PR in the first place. And if they simply withdraw his app and close out the file like every single operation manual states the procedure will be, checking RO will not even be an option to anyone.

So again... one way guarantees CIC will see he's a PR, the other way probably not. Choice is a very logical one, at least to me.
If the only thing that is "guaranteed" is discovery of PR (which is in fact inevitable, if FSW is processed), then the only thing that is truly guaranteed is the denial of FSW and nothing else.

Unlike eventual denial of FSW (which no one disputes), the possibility of the discovery of the Infraction (a breach of RO) still remains unknown ,whether in the context of processing FSW or withdrawing it.
And whether withdrawing of FSW application would have an effect as you suggest (prevent discovery of infraction), or instead trigger even more scrutiny is also unknown.

Either way, we are speculating, since we don't know internal procedural steps and practices, given a very unique nature of the case we are discussing.

One could look into withdrawal of PR Card applications or Withdrawal of Travel Document applications or Withdrawal of Sponsorship applications carried out under the similar circumstances (PR was in breach of RO, submitted application but then withdrew before processing started) to get some clues as to what might be expected, but since I have no knowledge of such cases I can't comment on it (if you do have anything to cite please feel free to post a link to a ruling, or a case law or reports, as dpenabill does).

Barring such a clue, it's totally unknown as to what action would CIC take.

Yes can give an educated guess, but ultimately only the officer knows. And really the reason is not relevant to his case.
Speculation is a better word, and I used it. Anything said about reasons why PIL BSO sent him to secondary is a pure speculation at this point.

Though I had always thought the PIL officer you encountered could see your PR status as soon as they scan your basic bio data on passport and it's cross referenced to a PR database, but perhaps this is not so easily apparent to them unless you bring it up.
Unknown. may be yes, may be no. Unknown in the case of OP.

Sadly the recourse one has if given inaccurate info or a lawyer screws up someone's PR application, is pretty non-existent in Canada. There are lots of cases where lawyers/consultants are reported to CIC or other authorities, and nothing is done or the authorities seem to turn a blind eye. Ones that get the most attention with immigration are the frauds not licensed to begin with. Problem is I think many people don't want to pay very much, so they seek out the ones offering "free" consultations or the lowest advertised fees, which of course doesn't always lead to the best advice.

And for people asking questions on internet message boards (not just here for immigration but on ANY topic you can think of), they should know that random unknown people are giving them feedback. Hence the reason for people here to not just take all advice posted here blindly, and to see the specific reasons why a poster is giving the advice they are. Else in the end you would basically have to refrain from giving any advice whatsoever since ultimately anything can happen when it comes to CIC, but realistically that will not help people here very much.
Untrue.

First, licensed and bonded lawyers are not consultants. I don't suggest anyone to go to "consultants" if they have a serious legal concern.
So, what consultants do is irrelevant, since those are not ones I suggest OP consult.

Next, as far as licensed attorneys are concerned, in Ontario not only you can get your money back (dispute a bill), but you can also go to Law Society (see http://www.lsuc.on.ca/with.aspx?id=644) and file formal complaint (with evidence) and this will result in investigation of the attorney who clearly has done wrong. It is aside from suing the attorney for damages and malpractice.

This is not to suggest that suing is fun and every wronged client will get a compensation, but it surely is better to have some recourse and remedy than none at all.

Finally, I never give people legal advise. I am trained in legal field and I recognize the perils and consequences of giving someone a legal advise while one is not licensed and qualified to do so. It would also be considered a malpractice or unlawful practice of law.
 

Rob_TO

VIP Member
Nov 7, 2012
11,427
1,551
Toronto
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
Seoul, Korea
App. Filed.......
13-07-2012
AOR Received.
18-08-2012
File Transfer...
21-08-2012
Med's Done....
Sent with App
Passport Req..
N/R - Exempt
VISA ISSUED...
30-10-2012
LANDED..........
16-11-2012
david1697 said:
Unlike eventual denial of FSW (which no one disputes), the possibility of the discovery of the Infraction (a breach of RO) still remains unknown ,whether in the context of processing FSW or withdrawing it.
And whether withdrawing of FSW application would have an effect as you suggest (prevent discovery of infraction), or instead trigger even more scrutiny is also unknown.

Either way, we are speculating, since we don't know internal procedural steps and practices, given a very unique nature of the case we are discussing.
Generally yes. Not withdrawing the FSW app guarantees discovery or PR status, and RO discovery is unknown.
Withdrawing the app makes discovery of PR status unknown, and RO discovery unknown. And in the case PR status is not discovered, RO discovery is not even a possibility. No matter what you think the odds are for discovery of PR status in this case, any odds to the contrary are still better than "guaranteed" in the first case.

And also as to odds, we do know internal procedural steps and practices as CIC publishes all of this. I just pointed to a few, but there are many more internal manuals and bulletins you can search for and read about how withdrawn apps are handled for FSW. Again not one of them indicates anything to do with further investigation into an unknown app, so my "opinion" is that the odds would be good that no additional investigation would occur, as per all known procedural info. Again not legal advice, simply my opinion so please just take it as that.

One could look into withdrawal of PR Card applications or Withdrawal of Travel Document applications or Withdrawal of Sponsorship applications carried out under the similar circumstances (PR was in breach of RO, submitted application but then withdrew before processing started) to get some clues as to what might be expected, but since I have no knowledge of such cases I can't comment on it (if you do have anything to cite please feel free to post a link to a ruling, or a case law or reports, as dpenabill does).
I have looked through case databases on this and other subjects, but the problem is in this case is they do not exist. There needs to have actually been a case where a PR withdrew an FSW (or other) app in progress, CIC did some extra investigation into it, found RO details, and proceeded with RO enforcement. However if no such case has ever happened, then you will not find any record of it in case law. Again the complete lack of cases here, points again to good odds (not guaranteed) that withdrawing is the better choice. Again not legal advice, just my opinion.

What there HAS been cases of, is something like a spousal sponsorship application where a PR not meeting RO tried to sponsor their spouse, a visa officer during regular processing of the app (so not one that was withdrawn) discovered the RO, ending in rejection of PR app and RO enforcement against the PR.


Next, as far as licensed attorneys are concerned, in Ontario not only you can get your money back (dispute a bill), but you can also go to Law Society (see http://www.lsuc.on.ca/with.aspx?id=644) and file formal complaint (with evidence) and this will result in investigation of the attorney who clearly has done wrong. It is aside from suing the attorney for damages and malpractice.
At least in the family class section of the forum, there are lots of anecdotal stories of people doing exactly this, but getting nowhere. But I understand that is only a small sample size. The only thing i'm trying to say here is that if OP decides to talk to a lawyer, do some due diligence to make sure they are a reputable one and don't just go with the one closest to you or the cheapest.

Finally, I never give people legal advise. I am trained in legal field and I recognize the perils and consequences of giving someone a legal advise while one is not licensed and qualified to do so. It would also be considered a malpractice or unlawful practice of law.
You can't deny that everyone on this site gives advice and recommendations one way or another on what people asking questions should do. In no way should any advice being given anywhere on this or other immigration sites, be considered legal advice. Nobody states they are giving legal advice, and that goes without saying. But it definitely doesn't mean people should stop giving advice or recommendations altogether simply because nobody is a licensed immigration lawyer. That would render these kinds of forums pretty much useless, or they should force every single poster to end each and every post with "note this is not legal advice so should not be taken as such".
 

david1697

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Rob_TO said:
Generally yes. Not withdrawing the FSW app guarantees discovery or PR status, and RO discovery is unknown.
Withdrawing the app makes discovery of PR status unknown, and RO discovery unknown. And in the case PR status is not discovered, RO discovery is not even a possibility. No matter what you think the odds are for discovery of PR status in this case, any odds to the contrary are still better than "guaranteed" in the first case.
Why do you think that withdrawal request can not lead to discovery of PR or even trigger greater scrutiny, leading to RO breach discovery?
I am not saying it will, I certainly don't know it. But what reason do you have to assert that it will not?

I personally won't be surprised if OP's petition had long been accepted and processing had already started , it doesn't take long for CIC to charge a card and begin processing of a file.

Still, supposing they haven't started processing, how do you know what they do with the file before closing it?


And also as to odds, we do know internal procedural steps and practices as CIC publishes all of this. I just pointed to a few, but there are many more internal manuals and bulletins you can search for and read about how withdrawn apps are handled for FSW. Again not one of them indicates anything to do with further investigation into an unknown app, so my "opinion" is that the odds would be good that no additional investigation would occur, as per all known procedural info. Again not legal advice, simply my opinion so please just take it as that.
What you posted is either totally outdated (OP120) and thus invalid guide, or else it's removed from CIC website (either because it's no longer valid, or link was broken).
As far as OP B6 is concerned (manual which has broken link), there is nothing in it about withdrawal except two quotes I posted.

So, what exactly do you have , as far as procedures and practices of CIC and "odds" are concerned, except the invalid references above?
While at it (looking for sources) keep in mind that you will never see the full text of any manual or any of the internal communication that is redacted and/or not published.

I have looked through case databases on this and other subjects, but the problem is in this case is they do not exist. There needs to have actually been a case where a PR withdrew an FSW (or other) app in progress, CIC did some extra investigation into it, found RO details, and proceeded with RO enforcement. However if no such case has ever happened, then you will not find any record of it in case law. Again the complete lack of cases here, points again to good odds (not guaranteed) that withdrawing is the better choice. Again not legal advice, just my opinion.
1. What specific database or databases you looked through?
2. What queries you have made ? (meaning, what exactly you searched for? what keywords or statutes or phrases were used ?)

I don't think there are much of any cases where someone with current PR status applied for FSW, and one of the reasons I kept saying "I DO NOT KNOW" re" fate of FSW application of OP is that there are no similar cases I have heard of (and I am sure neither have you or dpnebill).

Lack of cases where FSW applied for PR while in breach of OR only demonstrates LACK OF KNOWLEDGE or point of reference.
You can't use lack of knowledge as predictor of "good odds" that certain thing will or will not happen.

What if (this is a logical question, a hypothetical scenario, not saying that it will happen, just asking WHAT IF, so you can see the logical fallacy of your assertion about "good odds"). so what IF the odds of discovery of breach of the RO during processing of FSW app are the same as with Travel Document application, but you can't find a single case because no one ever before filed for the FSW while a PR in breach of RO?
How absence of cases (or absence of anyone who has done it) serves to show that there are "good odds" to avoid a penalty?

That's like suggesting that there is no penalty for certain infraction if there is no record of penalty for it. What what if infraction of such nature than no one had ever committed it before? What if odds are 100% against transgressor, but due to unique nature of transgression no one had ever committed it before and therefore no case to reference?


What there HAS been cases of, is something like a spousal sponsorship application where a PR not meeting RO tried to sponsor their spouse, a visa officer during regular processing of the app (so not one that was withdrawn) discovered the RO, ending in rejection of PR app and RO enforcement against the PR.
What you should look for are spousal applications where PR didn't meet RO, tried to sponsor their spouse but withdrew application before processing took place. This will not tell you what will happen with FSW application, but at least it will show what action CIC took to pursue those who failed RO, who submitted sponsorship app, but who withdrew their application before it was processed by CIC.
Do you have any such case reference?

At least in the family class section of the forum, there are lots of anecdotal stories of people doing exactly this, but getting nowhere. But I understand that is only a small sample size. The only thing i'm trying to say here is that if OP decides to talk to a lawyer, do some due diligence to make sure they are a reputable one and don't just go with the one closest to you or the cheapest.
Let's suppose they all tell accurate stories, let's suppose in all of those cases attorneys were scumbags and clients were deliberately told lies, were incompetent and/or cheated out of their money for no service provided or malpractice. I assure you that if this was the case and if they all had firm evidence of being on the right side of the law and if they initiated a dispute and filed a complaint with Law Society, there would be some serious consequences for at least some attorneys and there would be a number of clients who would have received partial or full refunds.
Still better than being screwed by some total stranger and having ZERO chances of any recovery at all.
And of course I never tell anyone "open yellow book and call the first attorney that comes up on a page". If you had read what I write, you would have noticed that I suggested OP find a seasoned immigration attorney who had many years of experience, had seen lots of the cases in past and keeps updated of all changes and trends by attending the liaison meetings with CIC and attorney conferences.
When you hire attorney it's the same as hiring any contractor for any job: you interview them first and research their credentials and accomplishments. Then you decide if you want to use their service, even if for a brief consultation.

You can't deny that everyone on this site gives advice and recommendations one way or another on what people asking questions should do. In no way should any advice being given anywhere on this or other immigration sites, be considered legal advice. Nobody states they are giving legal advice, and that goes without saying. But it definitely doesn't mean people should stop giving advice or recommendations altogether simply because nobody is a licensed immigration lawyer. That would render these kinds of forums pretty much useless, or they should force every single poster to end each and every post with "note this is not legal advice so should not be taken as such".
I said I don't give a Legal Advise. I am not liable for what others do. I answered on my own behalf.
What you do is your liability.

I use this forum for educational purposes and share my individual comments and opinion, never a legal advise.
I never tell anyone "Do so and so" when it concerns making a legal decision, but always suggest they seek a professional advise.
 

dpenabill

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This discussion tends to wander wildly and oft times into more or less abstract questions which, please pardon the literary theft, approach medieval efforts to count how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

The more detailed accounting of the OP's POE experience illuminates some additional aspects of what happened. However, while I tend to agree with the suggestion by Rob_TO that the referral to secondary was likely due to concerns about how long this UK citizen (visa-exempt traveler) was planning to stay in Canada, there are other possibilities and the actual decision-making that happened is not particularly significant let alone important. The OP ended up in secondary where, one way or another, the examining officer identified the OP as a Canadian PR.

I also acknowledge that CBSA officers working immigration in secondary are not always that well informed. After all, when one reads very many cases, it is apparent that officers, IAD decision-makers, even Federal Court Justices sometimes get this or that detail quite wrong. Let alone a CBSA officer whose job duties span screening a wide, wide range of people relative to a wide, wide range of potential issues or problems, to be done within a limited amount of time.

That is, they do not spend the time some of us do sorting out all the angles in wrangling with isolated, particular issues. CBSA officers are on the clock. They are expected to process a certain number of people per hour. They focus on key indicators, make judgments, pursue lines of inquiry based on that, and drive toward a conclusion which satisfies their mandate, minimizing the inconvenience imposed on travelers while nonetheless enforcing Canada's immigration laws and, especially, protecting Canada from criminality, security risks, terrorism, and abuses.

In this OP's circumstance, the important elements of what happened at the POE are fairly clear and not complicated:
-- referred to secondary, where the OP is identified as a PR, not just a UK traveler visiting Canada
-- sufficient attention to OP's PR status to advise the OP that it was something that he should look into, arising from circumstances in which the OP overtly acknowledged that he thought his status had "expired" (a rather salient indicator)
-- status of entry as a PR was noted in the stamp in OP's passport
-- OP was allowed to enter without being issued a 44(1) Report


Thus, in terms of what matters, all we really know is that the examining officer in secondary was aware the OP was a returning PR, one who thought his PR status was expired, and that the officer did not decide to issue a 44(1) Report there at the POE.

I do not really know, but I would bet a lot that a FOSS NCB entry was made flagging a potential residency obligation issue.

Beyond that we really do not know whether a referral was sent to the local CIC or not. And we do not know what the local CIC would do with the referral if one was sent. While CBSA and CIC are not law enforcement agencies in the usual way we think of law enforcement, the way they approach investigations and pursuing recourse (such as initiating removal proceedings) is probably similar: discretion and priorities having a lot of influence on who they target and what they do (as in whether they make inquiries, conduct formal investigations, or pursue formal recourse such as initiating removal proceedings).

As I have said, my guess is that the pass at the POE is a good indicator that this individual's circumstances do not rise to the level of causing concern. Whether what tipped the scales is that for this individual strictly enforcing the PR RO is a low priority, or a perception this individual overtly deserves a chance to retain PR status, or just a perception the individual is not someone attempting to abuse the system, I cannot say I know . . . it is just my guess that the examining officer saw enough to understand the OP's situation and knowing that much gave the OP a pass.

But of course the OP may, nonetheless, be contacted by CIC and subject to a residency examination.

Reminder: the OP worked at least some summer holidays in Canada. How often and how recently are big factors. The more time in Canada, and the more ties to a life in Canada, the better.

By the way, one of the more well known and oft exploited weaknesses in the system is that PRs predominantly working outside Canada who want to continue that employment, but not lose PR status, will periodically come to Canada. Thus, when they arrive at a POE they have not been outside Canada for so long as to be blatantly obvious about not meeting the PR RO. It was mentioned above that a PR not meeting the PR RO entered Canada three times without being challenged about residency. That is the way many have done it in the past, and some still are doing it (although, as I have said other times, my impression is that there is a trend toward more strict enforcement, assisted in part by advances in technology, and due in part to the priorities of the current government, so it is, I believe, getting tougher to do this). If that PR had not come to Canada the first two of those times, the risk (what happens in a particular case is dependent on many additional factors and circumstances) of a residency challenge would have been significantly higher by the time of the return on the third occasion.

This leads to the question about what did I mean when I referred to a PR appearing (to a POE examining officer) to be in breach of the PR RO.

david1697 said:
You state “CBSA does not simply waive through a person who appears to be in breach of the PR Residency Obligation”, but how does one appear to be in breach , unless examined (or unless there are some glaring and obvious signs of a breach)?
It is obvious, for example, that when a PR with a valid PR card and a history of periodically entering Canada, and whose last absence was not for a very long time (not for multiple years for example), approaches the POE, the risk of even being referred to secondary for immigration purposes is relatively low, even if the PR is in breach of the PR residency obligation. This is an example of a PR who does NOT appear to be in breach of the RO.

On the other hand, a traveler presenting a visa-exempt passport and declaring that his purpose in coming to Canada is to stay for just six days less than the maximum standard time allowed a visitor, accompanying a person who is coming to Canada to work and live in Canada, that is highly likely to invite a referral to secondary. When, once in secondary, this individual is identified as a PR, and not in possession of a valid PR card, an individual who thinks his PR status has expired, that is an example of a PR who appears to at least possibly be in breach of the PR residency obligation.

A PR who arrives in Canada for the first time in more than three years, overtly appears to be in breach of the PR RO.

There are undoubtedly many, many indicators CBSA can identify, and sometimes they probably look for specific indicators more thoroughly (while some criticize their training and competency, they see dozens if not hundreds of clients day in and day out, and they get fairly skilled in what some call issue-identification or issue-recognition).

Sometimes POE officers have particular issues or concerns they are focused on . . . while a crude analogy that breaks down easily, think of traffic officers on a highway, sometimes they are focused specifically on interdicting speeders and they are not watching much for other violations, or the interdiction of driving-while-impaired drivers and not focused on other violations. The analogy does hold up in a significant respect: like an officer doing speed enforcement who, once he has stopped a vehicle for speeding, identifies other offences, will issue citations for or, depending on the offence, even make an arrest for the other offences, similarly a CBSA officer who is examining an individual for the targeted-concern-of-the-day (or week or month or however they go about these things) who identifies a separate significant or serious concern will almost certainly follow-through, at least to the officer's satisfaction, regarding that other issue.

And that appears to be what happened for this OP. An interview regarding concerns about the nature and duration of his trip as a visa-exempt traveler, evolved into an interview addressing his PR status, and addressing his impression his PR status had expired including advice to look into the matter. But ultimately the examining CBSA officer was satisfied that the OP should be allowed to enter Canada without further inquiry (at that time) regarding residency and without issuing the OP a 44(1) report.


FSW PR visa application:

I do not follow why so much back and forth about the FSW PR visa application. The OP is a PR. A PR is not eligible to apply for a PR visa. That application should be rejected, or the applicant can withdraw the application. There is nothing to be gained by not withdrawing it. Fact of application made will remain in GCMS and copy of it will probably be retained (at least electronic copy) by CIC. It will either trigger further action by CIC or not, and while my guess is that it will not by itself trigger a residency examination, that is a guess, and I doubt anyone knows any more precisely what effect it will have than that.

Just as relative to whether or not the POE officers sent a referral or alert or such to CIC regarding potential RO concern, for what might happen due to the FSW PR application it is a matter of waiting and seeing, and if a residency examination is coming, deal with it when it comes. If not, stay the course, get a job, live a life in Canada, and in two years it is all history, of little or no effect or import.



Inadmissibilty:

"Inadmissible" is a specifically defined state, certain grounds of inadmissibility applying to both PRs and FNs (security and serious criminality), some applying to FNs but not PRs (health grounds, financial grounds), some specifically applicable to PRs, like inadmissibility for failing to comply with the PR Residency Obligation (see IRPA section 41(b), referring to PR RO in IRPA section 28).

But what effect inadmissibility has is very different for FNs than it is for PRs.

Moreover, "inadmissibility" should not be confused with lack of authorization to enter Canada, or being denied permission to actually enter Canada. I was probably too sloppy in using "not admissible" previously in an effort to use a single reference encompassing not just persons who are inadmissible, but others who may not have authorization to enter Canada, or who are denied permission to actually enter Canada. (Rob_TO explained some aspects of this in distinguishing between authorization to enter Canada and being allowed to actually enter Canada (permission to enter Canada one might say). As Rob_TO noted, it is not uncommon for visa-exempt nationals to be turned away at the border for reasons other than being inadmissible, such as if the border officer believes the visa-exempt national is attempting to enter Canada for a reason not consistent with being a visitor (such as to work or live in Canada). They are not "inadmissible" but may be denied admission to Canada on the particular occasion.)

And that sloppiness of mine may have been misleading in other ways as well, because relative to PRs who are inadmissible, despite being inadmissible a PR must be allowed entry into Canada.

david1697 said:
Also, you state “a PR identified at the POE as inadmissible due to a breach of the residency obligation was....” and this leads me to examine another aspect of this subject.
PR is NOT inadmissible, even if in clear breach of RO , UNLESS the PR status is revoked.
In other words, PR can't be inadmissible on the sole account of failing RO. To become inadmissible his breach must be reported and the revocation of status be effective (which does not happen until after removal order entered or appeal is lost). So, for as long as PR remains a PR (and it can take a year after the initial report of breach by CBSA), the PR is still admissible.
Note: once a PR is finally adjudicated to have lost PR status, he or she is no longer a PR. He is not an "inadmissible" PR. He is a Foreign National (FN) and not a PR at all. And the irony is that if the grounds for revocation of PR status was IRPA section 41(b), based on failing to comply with IRPA section 28 (the PR RO), that individual may very well not be inadmissible at all, and is then eligible for entry into Canada as any other FN, subject to visa requirements, or as a visa-exempt visitor (if from a visa-exempt country). (If the grounds for revocation were other than a breach of the PR RO or failure to meet a condition of PR, such as serious criminality or misrepresentation, those grounds usually also make the individual inadmissible as a FN.)

That is, no, the "inadmissible PR" is not one conclusively adjudicated to have, for example, failed to comply with the PR RO. And, in general, an inadmissible PR seeking entry at a POE must be allowed to enter Canada (that said, there are provisions for detaining PRs for security or criminal reasons).

"Inadmissible" is essentially a descriptive state or condition (see IRPA sections 33 to 43), and while in some instances it is an adjudicated status, in other instances it simply describes a PR who has done something to render him (or her) inadmissible and is therefore subject to certain consequences (even if there has been no action taken toward imposing consequences), such as, for example:
-- denial of a PR Travel Document
-- issuance of a 44(1) Report and Removal Order at a POE
-- subject to removal proceedings which may culminate in a departure order

A PR in breach of the PR Residency Obligation is "inadmissible" as defined by IRPA section 41(b). Whether that has any consequences depends. As has been oft times observed, many PRs who have not complied with the residency obligation, who are thus in breach, nonetheless manage to enter Canada without any action taken against them. There is some disagreement about why there is no action, but the why does not change the what, the what being that the PR is in Canada with valid PR status. So long as this PR is in breach of the PR Residency Obligation, this PR is at risk of CIC commencing removal proceedings, but as a practical matter it appears to be extremely rare for CIC to pursue Removal Proceedings against such individuals unless the individual does something triggering CIC to assess compliance with the Residency Obligation. Thus, such a PR who does not leave and attempt to return to Canada, who does not apply to obtain a new PR card, or otherwise initiate inquiry from CBSA or CIC, can simply stay in Canada and when that individual is in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation, that is when the individual has been in Canada at least 730 days within the preceding five years, he is no longer inadmissible, and the previous inadmissibility is cured, of no import, no effect.



Clarification: I think I referred to the OP as "not admissible" as a visa-exempt visitor. As I acknowledge above, this was a sloppy use of terms, and was not intended to mean the OP was "inadmissible" as a visa-exempt visitor. OP simply was not eligible to be admitted as Foreign National visitor. So, technically CBSA should not allow someone in the position of the OP, that is a PR presenting a visa-exempt passport, entry into Canada as a FN with visitor status.

In practice, particularly in the past, many, many PRs have approached the POE presenting a visa-exempt passport and been allowed to enter Canada without further status inquiry. That does not mean they then have the status of a FN visitor even though the CBSA waived them through on that basis. Indeed, this is the means, the ploy if one will, that many, many PRs in breach of the PR Residency Obligation have employed in the past, precisely because they knew if they were simply waived into Canada, then all they had to do was stay and wait two years and their status was preserved, the prior inadmissibility cured.

One can speculate about whether the OP would have been referred to secondary if he had a return ticket to the UK in two weeks time and indicated he was visiting for two weeks. If not referred to secondary that would be an example of the PR, in effect, slipping back into Canada, and all that PR has to do is then stay for two years and the breach of the RO is cured. But even a well-informed, rather sly and perceptive individual in the PR's situation at the POE might not know for sure why the referral was made, what triggered the PIL officer's concerns, what concerns were noted in the referral to secondary. It is not as if CBSA officers explain these things (oh, they will often offer some explanation for making this or that query, but they are usually careful not to divulge investigatory methods, not to divulge what factors trigger deeper inquiry, heightened scrutiny). Once in secondary a more thorough GCMS/FOSS query is run, with predictable implications (like a PR being identified as a person with PR status).
 

david1697

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Note: once a PR is finally adjudicated to have lost PR status, he or she is no longer a PR. He is not an "inadmissible" PR. He is a Foreign National (FN) and not a PR at all. And the irony is that if the grounds for revocation of PR status was IRPA section 41(b), based on failing to comply with IRPA section 28 (the PR RO), that individual may very well not be inadmissible at all, and is then eligible for entry into Canada as any other FN, subject to visa requirements, or as a visa-exempt visitor (if from a visa-exempt country). (If the grounds for revocation were other than a breach of the PR RO or failure to meet a condition of PR, such as serious criminality or misrepresentation, those grounds usually also make the individual inadmissible as a FN.)
There are way too many errors in your post to address them all at once on Saturday night when I want to retire to bed.
I will , for now, address the above and return to the rest later.

NOTATION: My question was in regards to those who are holding PR status , whose breach of RO have not been discovered by CIC yet and who attempt to enter Canada as Permanent Residents of Canada while PR status has not been revoked yet. I did not ask anything about Foreign Nationals who already lost their PR status ,per CIC finding and final ruling.
I was curious to know whether CBSA had a discretion to not scrutinize PR's they chose, or would Section 8.1 (which I cited) apply to PR's as well as other FN. Per8.1 CBSA can not disregard inadmissibility issues. But if one is established to be PR then there is no longer question of admissibility, only a question of RO obligation which (if PR failed examination) could lead to a process of revoking a PR status, but could not prevent admission anyway.

According to your earlier posts Sec. 8.1 applies to PR's (WHILE THEY ARE PR's), and I wondered if this is so. May be it is so, but the question I raised has not been addressed yet.

Your response is either irrelevant to question I raised , or you are providing a misleading answer if you insist it was in response to what I asked about.
You respond with "once a PR is finally adjudicated to have lost PR status..", but that's not what I asked about. I didn't ask what happens to PR after PR status is lost. It's self evident to me and does not merit asking a redundant question.

However, as you know PR is NOT LOST until the revocation takes effect or appeal is filed and LOST.
Only after PR is lost (revocation of status becomes effective or appeal is lost) what you state becomes applicable, because there is no longer a PR status to speak of.
But for the time being ,while immigrant is still a PR, he can not be refused admission.
So, how could CBSA disregard "inadmissibility" once admissibility itself is established (entrant is holding valid PR status)?

There is no "inadmissible" PR on the account of RO breach alone, admission is the RIGHT of PR (until after PR is finally revoked).

One has to cease to be a PR (or some other extreme conditions must be present) before one can truly become inadmissible.
One does not cease to be a PR by merely staying outside of Canada (no matter for how long) and BEFORE the breach of RO is discovered , reported and ultimately led to revocation to the PR status.

Which brings us back to what I have stated earlier , and which you have failed to address:

Also, you state “a PR identified at the POE as inadmissible due to a breach of the residency obligation was....” and this leads me to examine another aspect of this subject.
PR is NOT inadmissible, even if in clear breach of RO , UNLESS the PR status is revoked.
In other words, PR can't be inadmissible on the sole account of failing RO. To become inadmissible his breach must be reported and the revocation of status be effective (which does not happen until after removal order entered or appeal is lost). So, for as long as PR remains a PR (and it can take a year after the initial report of breach by CBSA), the PR is still admissible.


Your reply to it is just one example of error in your judgment, and I have (after quickly scanning your entire reply) identified many.
Going to rest now, will bring to light your numerous other errors later.
 

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dpenabill said:
This discussion tends to wander wildly and oft times into more or less abstract questions which, please pardon the literary theft, approach medieval efforts to count how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
I maintain every single statement I have made. OP is in breach of RO. CIC has duty to enforce the law (like US INS in past , it carries functions of enforcement along with benefit granting). OP has pending application (FSW) with all the information needed to discover breach of RO.
I don't know what will happen to OP, how CIC will treat his FSW application, no matter what he does with his FSW.
I made very clear my lack of knowledge of internal CIC practices and procedures and advised OP to consult an attorney.

The other poster (Rob) has made several lengthy arguments, many of them infused with logical fallacy, others claiming I made statements about OP case which I have not, still others wandering off topic and bringing irrelevant subjects or giving instructions to OP what to do in absence of the expertise or knowledge of the subject.
In number of those instances I have addressed the other poster and may continue to do so if I find it necessary.

At this point OP had already received response from us. Rob strongly suggested him to withdraw FSW and stay in Canada. Lately you seem to advise OP the same. And I have plainly told OP to consult the seasoned immigration attorney, and admitted that the subject was outside of my area of knowledge to give further comments other than advising OP to see an attorney.

But it does not prevent other posters (including you) from coming and posting very lengthy, and often erroneous, speculations on a case, to which I respond as well.
If you consider it a "medieval efforts to count how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" then may be you should lead by an example, cease contributing to this thread and delete your numerous earlier replies.

The more detailed accounting of the OP's POE experience illuminates some additional aspects of what happened. However, while I tend to agree with the suggestion by Rob_TO that the referral to secondary was likely due to concerns about how long this UK citizen (visa-exempt traveler) was planning to stay in Canada, there are other possibilities and the actual decision-making that happened is not particularly significant let alone important. The OP ended up in secondary where, one way or another, the examining officer identified the OP as a Canadian PR.
You suggested that OP was referred to secondary because his PR status was identified by BSO PIL. OP reluctantly agreed with you, that it was possible his PR was discovered by BSO PIL, but then he also recalled his secondary examination where he said his PR status was mentioned for the first time , and his more detailed account of events emerged only after I posted direct questions to OP. And Rob then made some comments subsequent to those latest revelations by OP.

Prior to that it was all a matter of speculation, particularly by you when you were making inferences about what happened to OP at the border.
Now you claim it's all irrelevant.

In any event, in the course of you yourself posting very long and winded comments about what may or may not have happened to OP at POE, subject of the ENF 05, and particularly Section 8.1 came up. Question arose as to whether CBSA could selectively use a vested discretionary power and not examine RO of PR.
You have never directly addressed this question, but went on to provide, among other things, an irrelevant or misleading answer (I responded to it last night).

And as far as OP is concerned, we all have provided him our respective responses. There is not much anyone can add.

But questions which arose from , among other things, your own writing remain. It's up to you if you will honestly address those questions or ignore them, their relevancy is directly related to what you yourself debated.

I also acknowledge that CBSA officers working immigration in secondary are not always that well informed. After all, when one reads very many cases, it is apparent that officers, IAD decision-makers, even Federal Court Justices sometimes get this or that detail quite wrong. Let alone a CBSA officer whose job duties span screening a wide, wide range of people relative to a wide, wide range of potential issues or problems, to be done within a limited amount of time.

That is, they do not spend the time some of us do sorting out all the angles in wrangling with isolated, particular issues. CBSA officers are on the clock. They are expected to process a certain number of people per hour. They focus on key indicators, make judgments, pursue lines of inquiry based on that, and drive toward a conclusion which satisfies their mandate, minimizing the inconvenience imposed on travelers while nonetheless enforcing Canada's immigration laws and, especially, protecting Canada from criminality, security risks, terrorism, and abuses.
And what is the point you are trying to make? Are you an attorney for CBSA in charge of defending the actions of CBSA?
Why such defensive response? CBSA deserves to be put on trial when it violates the law, exceeds its' authority, mistreats perfectly legitimate entrants (example: writes a report and subjects to hardships of removal proceedings a PR who accumulated 869 days in Canada in past 5 years , as in the case you earlier sited), but none of it is applicable to OP. Nobody is putting CBSA on trial here. If anything, CBSA in this particular instance had shown extra generosity and lavishly granted OP an opportunity to enter Canada as PR and restore his privileges, without writing a report (so we assume, at least).
And as I said earlier, anything added in regards to "Why exactly OP got referred to secondary" would be a mere speculation and nothing more.


In this OP's circumstance, the important elements of what happened at the POE are fairly clear and not complicated:
-- referred to secondary, where the OP is identified as a PR, not just a UK traveler visiting Canada
-- sufficient attention to OP's PR status to advise the OP that it was something that he should look into, arising from circumstances in which the OP overtly acknowledged that he thought his status had "expired" (a rather salient indicator)
-- status of entry as a PR was noted in the stamp in OP's passport
-- OP was allowed to enter without being issued a 44(1) Report

What exactly is clear? What "look into" means? You keep making comments about OP qas if you were better informed than OP as to what exactly transpired at POE. OP himself is hesitant and not sure what happened, yet you are so sure about knowing everything and considering it "clear and not complicated". May be it's not complicated at all, may be it's as simple as OP being admitted without report being written, but it's not clear. You yourself admit in other instances that we don't know for sure if CBSA encounter alone will lead to removal proceedings (you just advise to deal with it "there and then" if the issue ever comes up). Despite your admitted lack of certainty, you now state that everything is fairly clear and not complicated.
You speak as someone who feels defensive about CBSA practices and tries to 'smooth the edges', though it's not clear why you do this, especially in the context of OP case where there is no indication of any wrongdoing by CBSA.
If anything, it's OP who is on the wrong side of regulations, and NO, it's NOT totally clear as to what happened at the POE. There are only inferences and assumptions based on some of the details provided by OP.


Thus, in terms of what matters, all we really know is that the examining officer in secondary was aware the OP was a returning PR, one who thought his PR status was expired, and that the officer did not decide to issue a 44(1) Report there at the POE.

I do not really know, but I would bet a lot that a FOSS NCB entry was made flagging a potential residency obligation issue.

Beyond that we really do not know whether a referral was sent to the local CIC or not. And we do not know what the local CIC would do with the referral if one was sent.
So which one is it? Is it "fairly clear and not complicated" or rather UNKNOWN as to what exactly has happened at POE and whether referral (not report) was sent to the local CIC?


While CBSA and CIC are not law enforcement agencies in the usual way we think of law enforcement, the way they approach investigations and pursuing recourse (such as initiating removal proceedings) is probably similar: discretion and priorities having a lot of influence on who they target and what they do (as in whether they make inquiries, conduct formal investigations, or pursue formal recourse such as initiating removal proceedings).
CIC has a duty to enforce the law. We used to have US INS that carried similar responsibilities (before being divided into USCIS, ICE and CBP) , but in Canada CIC is still an agency that , among other things, must enforce Immigration Laws. There is no dispute about it, it's a fact.

As I have said, my guess is that the pass at the POE is a good indicator that this individual's circumstances do not rise to the level of causing concern. Whether what tipped the scales is that for this individual strictly enforcing the PR RO is a low priority, or a perception this individual overtly deserves a chance to retain PR status, or just a perception the individual is not someone attempting to abuse the system, I cannot say I know . . . it is just my guess that the examining officer saw enough to understand the OP's situation and knowing that much gave the OP a pass.
And what does your guess have to do with what some other CIC officer would do in his own stead under a separate set of circumstances?
Just because OP was given a pass by CBSA on last occasion, does it mean the same pass will be given if he attempts once again to enter Canada in breach of RO?
If not, then what relevance the pass he had received most recently have to do with possibility that his breach of RO could be discovered in the process of adjudicating his FSW application?
It's completely irrelevant what pass he received from CBSA during his last entry IF his breach of RO comes to attention of another officer on a separate occasion. I frankly don't know why you keep saying this over and over again, when it's not relevant at all to a question I raised about pending FSW application.


But of course the OP may, nonetheless, be contacted by CIC and subject to a residency examination.

Reminder: the OP worked at least some summer holidays in Canada. How often and how recently are big factors. The more time in Canada, and the more ties to a life in Canada, the better.
And who is now counting "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin"?

By the way, one of the more well known and oft exploited weaknesses in the system is that PRs predominantly working outside Canada who want to continue that employment, but not lose PR status, will periodically come to Canada. Thus, when they arrive at a POE they have not been outside Canada for so long as to be blatantly obvious about not meeting the PR RO. It was mentioned above that a PR not meeting the PR RO entered Canada three times without being challenged about residency. That is the way many have done it in the past, and some still are doing it (although, as I have said other times, my impression is that there is a trend toward more strict enforcement, assisted in part by advances in technology, and due in part to the priorities of the current government, so it is, I believe, getting tougher to do this). If that PR had not come to Canada the first two of those times, the risk (what happens in a particular case is dependent on many additional factors and circumstances) of a residency challenge would have been significantly higher by the time of the return on the third occasion.
What you cite above is what many US Permanent Residents used to do: travel to US once every six months and thus avoid being questioned about PR status, then apply for Citizenship after 5 years of being in US. The reason why immigrants used to do it is due to explicit "no longer than 6 months absent from US" rule which allowed for PR to re-enter without being questioned about intention to maintain PR status. It should be noted that it no longer works the same, because US CBP caught up with the abuse and many end in removal courts for doing it now, but most importantly it's a practice I have heard about in the context of US immigration, never in the context if Canadian RO.

I believe in case with Canadian RO, it's not as simple as 'touching ground' every now and then, because with Canadian RO the emphasis had ALWAYS been the clear cut requirement to accumulate 730 days out of 5 years in Canada to maintain PR. It doesn't matter when OP last touched the ground,
what matters is: did he stay 730 or more days in Canada in the past 5 years?

The rest of your comment is pure speculation,since we can't know what would happen differently if OP didn't come to Canada last two times.


This leads to the question about what did I mean when I referred to a PR appearing (to a POE examining officer) to be in breach of the PR RO.
No, it doesn't. See my reply above.


It is obvious, for example, that when a PR with a valid PR card and a history of periodically entering Canada, and whose last absence was not for a very long time (not for multiple years for example), approaches the POE, the risk of even being referred to secondary for immigration purposes is relatively low, even if the PR is in breach of the PR residency obligation. This is an example of a PR who does NOT appear to be in breach of the RO.
I have been referred to secondary for no reason at all. I had COPR and passport and I couldn't be in breach of RO even if I wanted to, because I was a 'brand new' , recently landed PR. Yet, I was sent to secondary. The fact is, anyone can be sent to secondary, even without any reason (other than 'gut feeling' of CBSA, which could be as simple as CBSA BSO PIL looking at you and thinking you 'look like' someone who should be sent to secondary, with nothing else to support such a split second decision). Though it's more rare in some cases than in others (may be if I had valid a PR Card , not just COPR and passport, I would not have been sent to secondary).

Furthermore, the very act of discovery of lengthy absence (which could indicate breach of RO by PR) would first require a scrutiny, without which there is no way of knowing when exactly did PR leave Canada. If someone left Canada 5 years ago via US border and returns to Canada tomorrow by Air, there is no way for Canadian CBSA to know when did the person leave Canada. Not unless they ask specific questions to determine residency obligation. Hence was my question "how does one appear to be in breach of PR".
You have not answered that question yet.


On the other hand, a traveler presenting a visa-exempt passport and declaring that his purpose in coming to Canada is to stay for just six days less than the maximum standard time allowed a visitor, accompanying a person who is coming to Canada to work and live in Canada, that is highly likely to invite a referral to secondary.
Again, you are going into speculating about what triggered OP to be sent to secondary.
I won't add any comments to it, since I don't know, I have not been inside the head of CBSA officer who referred him to secondary.

When, once in secondary, this individual is identified as a PR, and not in possession of a valid PR card, an individual who thinks his PR status has expired, that is an example of a PR who appears to at least possibly be in breach of the PR residency obligation.

A PR who arrives in Canada for the first time in more than three years, overtly appears to be in breach of the PR RO.

See above


There are undoubtedly many, many indicators CBSA can identify, and sometimes they probably look for specific indicators more thoroughly (while some criticize their training and competency, they see dozens if not hundreds of clients day in and day out, and they get fairly skilled in what some call issue-identification or issue-recognition).
it's not always the case, they don't always get really skilled, and I would bet in at least some occasions the lack of intelligence and over-reliance on subjective perception is the real cause to excuse plain arbitrary, split-second decisions made in regards to whom to scrutinize more or less (note: this arbitrariness is lawful, can not be legally challenged as "arbitrary and capricious" in legal sense of the word, as it is within a range of discretion vested in CBSA by law, but it's arbitrary in the matter of factually sense of the word. And it's part of existing reality).
As a result, some people in breach of RO and who have been out of Canada for 20 years or more are repeatedly given a pass without ever being referred to secondary inspection, while others (who never failed RO and have no criminal records or security issues) not only get referred to secondary, but some even get reported and placed on removal proceedings while meeting their RO (like the case you cited about an individual who had 869 days in Canada, yet still had to go through legal proceedings to prove the obvious).
If anything , it tells about lack of skill and professionalism in at least some of those cases.


Sometimes POE officers have particular issues or concerns they are focused on . . . while a crude analogy that breaks down easily, think of traffic officers on a highway, sometimes they are focused specifically on interdicting speeders and they are not watching much for other violations, or the interdiction of driving-while-impaired drivers and not focused on other violations. The analogy does hold up in a significant respect: like an officer doing speed enforcement who, once he has stopped a vehicle for speeding, identifies other offences, will issue citations for or, depending on the offence, even make an arrest for the other offences, similarly a CBSA officer who is examining an individual for the targeted-concern-of-the-day (or week or month or however they go about these things) who identifies a separate significant or serious concern will almost certainly follow-through, at least to the officer's satisfaction, regarding that other issue.

And that appears to be what happened for this OP. An interview regarding concerns about the nature and duration of his trip as a visa-exempt traveler, evolved into an interview addressing his PR status, and addressing his impression his PR status had expired including advice to look into the matter. But ultimately the examining CBSA officer was satisfied that the OP should be allowed to enter Canada without further inquiry (at that time) regarding residency and without issuing the OP a 44(1) report.
You keep speculating about what had happened to OP at POE ::)


FSW PR visa application:

I do not follow why so much back and forth about the FSW PR visa application. The OP is a PR. A PR is not eligible to apply for a PR visa. That application should be rejected, or the applicant can withdraw the application. There is nothing to be gained by not withdrawing it. Fact of application made will remain in GCMS and copy of it will probably be retained (at least electronic copy) by CIC. It will either trigger further action by CIC or not, and while my guess is that it will not by itself trigger a residency examination, that is a guess, and I doubt anyone knows any more precisely what effect it will have than that.
OP is a Canadian PR in breach of RO (a breach that makes him a removable PR) , and unfortunately he has pending FSW application with CIC.

CIC, among other things, is an enforcement arm and has duty to remove those individuals who are removable from Canada.

Nobody suggests that OP will gain PR status via pending FSW application if it's not withdrawn. We all know that PR can't be granted PR status, while already holding PR status. We all know FSW must be denied on the account of OP being PR. No one asks about 'gain' if FSW is not withdrawn (if by 'gain' you mean acquisition of PR status via pending FSW while one is already PR).

You miss entirely the point of the issue I raise.

I ask what if, in the course of adjudicating FSW the breach of RO comes to CIC attention (with evidence of breach being clearly shown in FSW application itself)?
Rob suggests to withdraw FSW, so I asked what are the chances that request to withdraw pending FSW application by a PR would trigger even more scrutiny than not doing anything at all?

I am just asking these questions (obviously not knowing answers), and I frankly don't understand why can't you either answer or state that you have no answers, or ignore the subject in entirety?

I ask the question rationale of which I have explained repeatedly. While not answering it you appear to be agitated by the subject being raised and it's not clear why you react in such a way.

Just as relative to whether or not the POE officers sent a referral or alert or such to CIC regarding potential RO concern, for what might happen due to the FSW PR application it is a matter of waiting and seeing, and if a residency examination is coming, deal with it when it comes. If not, stay the course, get a job, live a life in Canada, and in two years it is all history, of little or no effect or import.
Finally, you address the question , which basically seconds what I have said all along - it's UNKNOWN.

Just because it's UNKNOWN doesn't mean that question had disappeared into a thin air. it's just we don't know the answer, and therefore I advised OP to consult seasoned immigration attorney who may know better than us.

As to 'deal with it when it comes', it's like saying 'find a spare tire when you get a nail in your tire'.
While some may find this to be practically sound advise, especially if chances of getting a nail in a tire while driving are very low, others may find it to be more prudent to think of possibility ahead of the time and be prepared , not be caught by surprise, when undesired happens.


Inadmissibilty:

"Inadmissible" is a specifically defined state, certain grounds of inadmissibility applying to both PRs and FNs (security and serious criminality), some applying to FNs but not PRs (health grounds, financial grounds), some specifically applicable to PRs, like inadmissibility for failing to comply with the PR Residency Obligation (see IRPA section 41(b), referring to PR RO in IRPA section 28).
Finally, you address the question about applicability of Section 8.1 of ENF 05 to Canadian PR's.

This is what I have found in regards to IRPA Section 41(b):

Non-Compliance with the IRPA

According to Section 41 of the IRPA, a person is inadmissible for failing to comply with the IRPA:

In the case of a foreign national, through an act or omission which contravenes, directly or indirectly, a provision of the IRPA; and

In the case of a permanent resident, through failing to comply with Subsection 27(2) [which states that a permanent resident must comply with any conditions imposed under the IRPR] or Section 28 of the IRPA.

This section provides for the refusal of admission, or the removal from Canada, of those persons who have contravened any condition or requirement under the IRPA or who are not respecting their obligations under the IRPA. However, a non-compliance allegation must be coupled with a specific requirement of the IRPA or the IRPR. It should not be considered a standalone allegation.

http://www.americanlaw.com/cdninadmissible.html#noncompliance

I consent that there are grounds for removal for breach of Section 28 of IRPA, but I still don't see how that can be equated to 'inadmissibility'.
PR is admissible by definition until PR status is stripped.
Does the language of Sec. 8.1 , in regards to admissibility, apply to removability (not inadmissibility per se) under the specific circumstances discussed?
It is possible that it is (I just searched for IRPA Sec 41(b) and spend less than couple of minutes studying it) , and I now tend to think that indeed intent of Sec. 8.1 covers removability under the term of "inadmissibility" (although being removable is not the same as being inadmissible) , and if this is the case then CBSA may not have as broad discretion to not scrutinize a PR about residency in Canada as I thought it did.


But what effect inadmissibility has is very different for FNs than it is for PRs.

Moreover, "inadmissibility" should not be confused with lack of authorization to enter Canada, or being denied permission to actually enter Canada. I was probably too sloppy in using "not admissible" previously in an effort to use a single reference encompassing not just persons who are inadmissible, but others who may not have authorization to enter Canada, or who are denied permission to actually enter Canada.
What I believe you failed to distinguish is not 'inadmissibility' versus authorization to enter Canada (that would be an oxymoron, if one was at the same time banned entry yet authorized to enter) , but you failed to distinguish between 'inadmissibility' and 'removability'.
Those two are indeed separate legal concepts (though I will not be entirely surprised to find out that under some weird legal interpretation one is indeed 'inadmissible' and 'has a right to enter' and allowed to enter at the same time).

And, Sec. 8.1 may indeed, by intent, cover both removability and inadmissibility,even though it does not specifically refer to removability per se for whatever reason (may be because removability is covered under 41(b), subsection 27(2) or section 28 of IRPA , and because 8.1 refers to section 41(b) in entirety, whatever the case might be, I don't know for sure).

(Rob_TO explained some aspects of this in distinguishing between authorization to enter Canada and being allowed to actually enter Canada (permission to enter Canada one might say). As Rob_TO noted, it is not uncommon for visa-exempt nationals to be turned away at the border for reasons other than being inadmissible, such as if the border officer believes the visa-exempt national is attempting to enter Canada for a reason not consistent with being a visitor (such as to work or live in Canada). They are not "inadmissible" but may be denied admission to Canada on the particular occasion.)
Rob made very important clarification and corrected me on one specific point: Visa exempt Foreign National (like OP, who is UK Citizen) don't have a right to enter Canada. The 'right to enter' applies ONLY to Canadian Citizens and Canadian PR's.
Which cleared any questions I had about applicability of 8.1 to OP at the moment of encounter with BSO PIL when OP appraised BSO of his Visa Exempt Status. I didn't raise any other questions (as to what happens to US national , who is not Canadian PR or Citizen,when he/she shows up at Canadian POE with a U-Haul truck).

And that sloppiness of mine may have been misleading in other ways as well, because relative to PRs who are inadmissible, despite being inadmissible a PR must be allowed entry into Canada.
It's still not clear that PR who is admissible by right is at the same time inadmissible. It sounds as oxymoron. What is more likely is that PR is removable if in breach of RO (or other obligations), though still admissible.
And, it's also likely that intent of 8.1 (even though it only mentions 'admissibility') covers the removability as well (I have more detailed reference to this above).
But, I might be wrong. PR may indeed be defined as 'inadmissible' yet in possession of a 'right to enter' at the same time under some odd interpretation of law. Either way you have not clarified the matter but added more confusion to what was there before.


Note: once a PR is finally adjudicated to have lost PR status, he or she is no longer a PR. He is not an "inadmissible" PR. He is a Foreign National (FN) and not a PR at all. And the irony is that if the grounds for revocation of PR status was IRPA section 41(b), based on failing to comply with IRPA section 28 (the PR RO), that individual may very well not be inadmissible at all, and is then eligible for entry into Canada as any other FN, subject to visa requirements, or as a visa-exempt visitor (if from a visa-exempt country). (If the grounds for revocation were other than a breach of the PR RO or failure to meet a condition of PR, such as serious criminality or misrepresentation, those grounds usually also make the individual inadmissible as a FN.)
I addressed this in my post yesterday.

That is, no, the "inadmissible PR" is not one conclusively adjudicated to have, for example, failed to comply with the PR RO. And, in general, an inadmissible PR seeking entry at a POE must be allowed to enter Canada (that said, there are provisions for detaining PRs for security or criminal reasons).
See above.

"Inadmissible" is essentially a descriptive state or condition (see IRPA sections 33 to 43), and while in some instances it is an adjudicated status, in other instances it simply describes a PR who has done something to render him (or her) inadmissible and is therefore subject to certain consequences (even if there has been no action taken toward imposing consequences), such as, for example:
-- denial of a PR Travel Document
-- issuance of a 44(1) Report and Removal Order at a POE
-- subject to removal proceedings which may culminate in a departure order

A PR in breach of the PR Residency Obligation is "inadmissible" as defined by IRPA section 41(b).
See my replies above.

I totally agree that PR in breach of RO is removable (if in Canada) , or subject to be placed in removal proceedings upon entry, application for TD and etc., if outside of Canada.
What is not clear is whether 'removability' is the same as 'inadmisisbility' (I already wrote about this above).
May be it is, may be it's not. So far it is not clear that it is, even though it may be treated the same under Sec. 8.1 of ENF 05.
And it's that particular applicability of Sec. 8.1 to removable PR at POE that I was asking about all along.


Whether that has any consequences depends. As has been oft times observed, many PRs who have not complied with the residency obligation, who are thus in breach, nonetheless manage to enter Canada without any action taken against them. There is some disagreement about why there is no action, but the why does not change the what, the what being that the PR is in Canada with valid PR status. So long as this PR is in breach of the PR Residency Obligation, this PR is at risk of CIC commencing removal proceedings, but as a practical matter it appears to be extremely rare for CIC to pursue Removal Proceedings against such individuals unless the individual does something triggering CIC to assess compliance with the Residency Obligation.
Nobody ever disputed or suggested that it is common for CIC to go after PR's who are in breach of RO after the said PR's were examined and allowed to enter Canada without being reported by CBSA, and only because of entry and in absence of any other triggering events.

But possibly the triggering event (Pending FSW Application in this case) is what has been a point of contention, and it was acknowledged by yourself that you don't know if there will be any effects on RO discovery of OP on the account of his pending FSW application.
Neither do I , btw.

But just because we have no knowledge or answer in this regard doesn't mean the concern is solved or that it can be ignored as non-existent.

Thus, such a PR who does not leave and attempt to return to Canada, who does not apply to obtain a new PR card, or otherwise initiate inquiry from CBSA or CIC, can simply stay in Canada and when that individual is in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation, that is when the individual has been in Canada at least 730 days within the preceding five years, he is no longer inadmissible, and the previous inadmissibility is cured, of no import, no effect.
See above.


Clarification: I think I referred to the OP as "not admissible" as a visa-exempt visitor. As I acknowledge above, this was a sloppy use of terms, and was not intended to mean the OP was "inadmissible" as a visa-exempt visitor. OP simply was not eligible to be admitted as Foreign National visitor. So, technically CBSA should not allow someone in the position of the OP, that is a PR presenting a visa-exempt passport, entry into Canada as a FN with visitor status.

In practice, particularly in the past, many, many PRs have approached the POE presenting a visa-exempt passport and been allowed to enter Canada without further status inquiry. That does not mean they then have the status of a FN visitor even though the CBSA waived them through on that basis. Indeed, this is the means, the ploy if one will, that many, many PRs in breach of the PR Residency Obligation have employed in the past, precisely because they knew if they were simply waived into Canada, then all they had to do was stay and wait two years and their status was preserved, the prior inadmissibility cured.
You probably meant to say that someone who is Canadian PR shouldn't be admitted to Canada as Foreign National Visitor, and I never disputed it.
I asked why you think someone who is a Canadian PR is inadmissible on the account of being Visa Exempt.

OP claims that he had no such 'ploy' or 'sly' agenda as you suggest. But I can see how CBSA would have been of a different opinion and could think that OP indeed applied for FSW then attempted to enter as a Visitor to try to slip in while aware of being PR in breach of RO if they chose to examine it.

One can speculate about whether the OP would have been referred to secondary if he had a return ticket to the UK in two weeks time and indicated he was visiting for two weeks. If not referred to secondary that would be an example of the PR, in effect, slipping back into Canada, and all that PR has to do is then stay for two years and the breach of the RO is cured. But even a well-informed, rather sly and perceptive individual in the PR's situation at the POE might not know for sure why the referral was made, what triggered the PIL officer's concerns, what concerns were noted in the referral to secondary. It is not as if CBSA officers explain these things (oh, they will often offer some explanation for making this or that query, but they are usually careful not to divulge investigatory methods, not to divulge what factors trigger deeper inquiry, heightened scrutiny). Once in secondary a more thorough GCMS/FOSS query is run, with predictable implications (like a PR being identified as a person with PR status).
I don't know what is 'sly' about being informed (I would say in any freely governed state it is a right of civilians to know laws they are governed under and degree of transparency in society is how any state is measured against another, when we talk about freedoms and human rights versus tyranny, despotism, persecution of civilians and etc.) , but that set aside it should also be noted that the right to conceal internal investigative methods have been recognized by High Courts as meriting exemption, so there is no question as to legal grounds to keep what needs not to be known from becoming publicly known. There are indeed legitimate needs for this (to conceal the methods of obtaining intelligence, to conceal the sources/informants used, to prevent obstruction of justice that would result from not keeping secret certain methods of investigation and etc.).

But there are also some cases of incompetence (someone with over 869 days in Canada sent to secondary, reported and later forced to litigate in court the obvious), plain bias based on subjective criteria that has nothing to do with the justifiably secret 'methods of investigation' , and those causes also play role in at least some of the cases when one is sent to secondary inspection instead of being admitted from get-go as they should.

In any event none of the latter is applicable to OP , as in his case CBSA has been more generous than it could by (it's our assumption) admitting him in as Canadian PR without reporting him for breach of RO.

What effect his pending FSW will have in future remains to be seen.


P.S. NOTICE that the Title of thread is "Applying for PR when already a resident as thought it had expired...", which means it is of a real concern for OP, and I have not been 'wildly' or otherwise wandering off the topic when raising the question of pending FSW.