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Application with the Judge

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,438
3,183
Overall: it is important to NOT be misled about the current physical presence requirements. For any application made after June 10, 2015, any short-fall is fatal. Reason for absences is NOT relevant.

This is because an actual physical PRESENCE requirement applies.

For applications made prior to June 11, 2015 there was a three year RESIDENCY requirement. While a physical presence test could be applied for those applications, and during the Harper years that became the standard, usual test applied, Citizenship Judges could count days outside Canada toward residency in certain conditions. This has no relevance, no applicability, to any application made after June 10, 2015. This will continue to be true after the Bill C-6 3/5 rules take effect. Any short fall is fatal to the application, and reason for absences is NOT relevant.

That case has NO relevance at all in this topic. In particular, the 1460 days actual physical presence requirement had no relevance in the Saddique case discussed in the Global News article.

This topic is about an application made by MW2015 September 28, 2015, for which the Bill C-24 presence requirements apply, which require at least 1460 days actual presence in Canada during the preceding 6 years. For the application made by MW2015, and any application made after June 10, 2015 (up to when the new Bill C-6 3/5 rule will take effect) it is absolutely the case that . . .

If the count of days actually physically present in Canada falls below 1460 days, even by one day, the application will almost certainly be denied. Reason for absence is NOT relevant.

Note too that the last report from MW2015 was just Saturday, the day after the scheduled interview with the Citizenship Judge, and the OP reported withdrawing the application (due to a 32 day shortfall). In context that made perfect sense.

When the Bill C-6 3/5 rule takes effect, which is supposed to happen this Fall, the minimum physical presence requirement will be 1095 days. This should NOT be confused with the three year RESIDENCY requirement which applied for applications made prior to June 11, 2015, and which was the applicable requirement in the Saddique case.

(For actual decision, see http://decisions.fct-cf.gc.ca/fc-cf/decisions/en/item/233847/index.do )

In particular, for applications made after the Bill C-6 3/5 rule takes effect, it will continue to be the case that falling one day short of the minimum required (which will be 1095 days rather than the current 1460 days which is required) will mandate IRCC denying the application. And, likewise, the reason for absences will NOT be relevant.


The distinction between the pre-June 11, 2015 Residency requirement and an actual physical presence requirement has been discussed and illuminated in depth in many other topics, but mostly dating back to around the time Bill C-24 was proposed and subsequently implemented (discussions taking place between February 2014 up through the summer of 2015).

There may still be some older residency cases in process. At the least, some of these cases are only recently making their way to the Federal Court, as there were three relevant decisions in older, residency, so-called short-fall cases published recently. The other two recent cases did not go the applicants' way. One was a rather typical, failed appeal by an applicant with a relatively small short-fall who had been denied approval by the Citizenship Judge. The other was somewhat similar to the Saddique case in that it involved a Citizenship Judge granting approval despite a very large shortfall, an applicant who maintained no other place of residence in the world, who worked for a United Nations organization at various locations around the world at various times, who maintained his only residence in Canada, whose family was fully settled and residing in Canada (and who had in the meantime become Canadian citizens), and who had been in Canada more than twice as much as Saddique. For this case, the Motchian Aman case, see http://decisions.fct-cf.gc.ca/fc-cf/decisions/fr/item/233859/index.do


In any event, make no mistake. For all applications made after June 10, 2015, and going forward, an actual physical presence requirement applies, falling short even a little will mean the applicant is NOT eligible, and citizenship will be denied. And reasons for absences are not relevant.
 
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vitoriaboy

Full Member
Aug 26, 2017
49
5
Very unfair. Did you not check the days before applying? I feel your paid.
Please, if possible, share in detail your experience with CJ. Did they allege misrepresentation for not completing days or was the CJ accommodating? Also, did you have an interview with Citizenship Officer? If so, please share how it went.
 

NewUser2018

Hero Member
Jun 15, 2017
326
67
if its date calculation related case I would see the jude myself and gather all documents to explain but if its much more complex stuff never see immigration judge without a lawyer and I mean realy top lawyer.
 

MW2015

Hero Member
Apr 14, 2015
214
28
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
Very unfair. Did you not check the days before applying? I feel your paid.
Please, if possible, share in detail your experience with CJ. Did they allege misrepresentation for not completing days or was the CJ accommodating? Also, did you have an interview with Citizenship Officer? If so, please share how it went.
Yes i checked, but miscalculated them due to bad record keeping. But now I learned my lesson and everyone else should. I applied with 2 days to spare, really should apply with 30-60 days or more to spare. My problem is the way I kept working the numbers due to travel if I had waited 30 more days to apply I would have been even shorter than 1428, would have been like 1300+ or something. My calendar of travel is a rotating schedule so hard to judge when I will meet the days. Last two years have not traveled as much so hopefully when I re-apply I will have better understanding of what to provide. Judge said to include a receipt when you cross the border driving and maintain all boarding passes for proof of travel and return.

The judge was more intrigued with my case and the effort I took to provide all the documentation. My documentation was probably more than a ream of paper. He said most people did not want to touch my file but he was willing to accept the challenge. But even he said there were too many days un-documented from government sources as well as my own. The meeting was with a Judge who was an immigrant himself in the 70s.
 

Taname

Member
Jun 24, 2017
14
0
Hi guys, if you received RQ and your application is on hold.. can you apply for PR renewal while your application is on Hold for RQ.
 

Jaroddz

Hero Member
Mar 29, 2012
309
19
Toronto
Today i recevied my ATIP and there's a new under correspondence / outgoing / document: Notice to the Minister of the Decision of the Citizenship Judge – Section 5 / ...(french version), that was put in right after (almost at the same time) the event : Notice to apprear - Hearing with a citizenship judge.
I'm still scheduled in september 27 for the judge hearin, any idea what's that? Does that mean the decision has alreday been made?.
Thanks,
 

SufferInCan

Star Member
Oct 7, 2016
51
17
Overall: it is important to NOT be misled about the current physical presence requirements. For any application made after June 10, 2015, any short-fall is fatal. Reason for absences is NOT relevant.

This is because an actual physical PRESENCE requirement applies.

For applications made prior to June 11, 2015 there was a three year RESIDENCY requirement. While a physical presence test could be applied for those applications, and during the Harper years that became the standard, usual test applied, Citizenship Judges could count days outside Canada toward residency in certain conditions. This has no relevance, no applicability, to any application made after June 10, 2015. This will continue to be true after the Bill C-6 3/5 rules take effect. Any short fall is fatal to the application, and reason for absences is NOT relevant.


In any event, make no mistake. For all applications made after June 10, 2015, and going forward, an actual physical presence requirement applies, falling short even a little will mean the applicant is NOT eligible, and citizenship will be denied. And reasons for absences are not relevant.
How do you know that it will be true after Bill C-6 will be implemented?

http://www.canadavisa.com/canadian-citizenship-the-1095-day-rule.html
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,438
3,183
How do you know that it will be true after Bill C-6 will be implemented?

http://www.canadavisa.com/canadian-citizenship-the-1095-day-rule.html
Short answer: because the 3/5 rule prescribed in Bill C-6 imposes a physical presence requirement, and as amended (when it comes into force), Section 5(1)(c)(i) of the Citizenship Act will state that to be eligible for citizenship a PR must have "been been physically present in Canada for at least 1,095 days during the five years immediately before the date of his or her application." (emphasis added) There are no provisions in the Citizenship Act, currently or as it will be when the Bill C-6 changes take effect, which allow for exceptions. That is, there will be no authority in the Citizenship Act for granting citizenship to someone who falls short of the physical presence requirement. It would be, essentially, illegal for the Minister to confer citizenship on someone who does not meet the physical presence requirement.

The exceptional circumstances described at the website you link apply to shortfall applications made prior to June 11, 2015, pursuant to which IRCC could grant citizenship, or a Citizenship Judge could approve an applicant for the grant of citizenship, even though the applicant was NOT actually present in Canada for 1095 days in the applicable four relevant years. That 1095 day rule was a RESIDENCY requirement. (By the way, the exceptional circumstances listed, which again are for the old 1095 day rule, that is pursuant to the pre-June 11, 2015 RESIDENCY requirements, are a paraphrase of information in the CIC Operational Manual, CP Residence, which is no longer applicable.)

There are still applications in process under those rules. In another topic here I very recently went into some depth about the process for those applications in response to a query from an individual who is a shortfall applicant (under the old rules) with an application still in process.

To be clear, the Bill C-6 changes will implement a different 1095 day rule (different from the old 1095 day rule), and again it is one which like the current 1460 day rule is a physical presence requirement. To fall short will mean the application must be denied.

The website you link also outlines what the eligibility requirements will be when the 3/5 rule changes take effect.
see http://www.canadavisa.com/canadian-citizenship-eligibility.html
While that is an unofficial source, it confirms that the new rule will be a physical presence requirement.

Edit to add link to statutory requirement in Bill C-6. See section 1(2) in Bill C-6, which replaces Section 5(1)(c)(i) in the Citizenship Act with the language I quote above (but with emphasis added); for Bill C-6 see http://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/42-1/bill/C-6/royal-assent
 

sba

Star Member
May 13, 2017
78
5
My ecas got updated yesterday and i'm scheduled for the judge, "We sent you a notice on August 3, 2017 to appear for an interview with a citizenship judge on September 27, 2017." not sure what kind of documents should i bring with me, i'm assumption that the reason is my US green card because i just travelled 3 times and never to US during that period and i do have more then 1095 days any advice will be helpful, i'm already talking to my lawyer to determine the best course of action.
Hi
please inform us what happened.
your experience will help us.
 

sba

Star Member
May 13, 2017
78
5
Today i recevied my ATIP and there's a new under correspondence / outgoing / document: Notice to the Minister of the Decision of the Citizenship Judge – Section 5 / ...(french version), that was put in right after (almost at the same time) the event : Notice to apprear - Hearing with a citizenship judge.
I'm still scheduled in september 27 for the judge hearin, any idea what's that? Does that mean the decision has alreday been made?.
Thanks,
Dear friend
please inform us, how did you do with judge, and how did you prepare, your experience is very important.
thank you .
 

Jaroddz

Hero Member
Mar 29, 2012
309
19
Toronto
Hello,
in short the hearing didn't went very well, after documents verification (which supposed to be just 2 IDs) the agent there asked me for My health card, driver's license, landing document, PR, all the passports (old and new) and a copy, i went in for videoconference hearing (for almost an hour), the judge was very unfriendly right of the gate, and he started giving me a speech by stating that the Canadian citizenship need to be earned and it's not a right.... i haven't said anything yet at this point (that was strange start), So he start reading some documents listing my entry/exit (and the fact i was short in days), but through out his lecture i spotted couple mistakes made by the CIC office that interviewed me after the Citizenship test, first she wrongly reported my landing date by 20 days short, and another entry by 10 days, and she made some assumption that my spouse (Canadian citizen) was working in US for years based on her search in Linkedin (believe it or not) and i haven't visited him.
so i get a chance finally to correct the records and the baseless assumption of the officer about my spouse, now after 15 minutes the judge double checked all the information i provided and admitted that those were mistakes from the CIC officer and my meet all the residency requirements and i even had more days than that's required by the citizenship application ( from that point he started to be more friendly).
Now his issue with my application shifted to something else, which is the fact that i had a greed card (we got it 4 months before i applied, but i never spent a night in US), couple months later and my spouse moved to US for a job -few weeks after my application- , so followed him in order to keep our family together (to the judge that was the issue), i don't have ties to Canada even that we left everything all out banks accounts saving, RRSP, cell phones lines,.....) none of that was considered ties to him and he keep repeating that he lean more to the denial and sometime it's best to withdraw versus getting the denial (it was really depressing), anyway that's what happened.
All my kids,spouse are Canadians, his move to US was purely for financial reasons, to save and be able to afford a house in Canada and move back: My questions here to the seniors contributors is : I applies under the old rules 3/5 where the intent to living in Canada wasn't there, does it still apply to me? the fact that i met all the requirements when i applied for the citizenship application, and i move to US was after that legally can affect my application?
the mistake of the calculation was made by the CIC officer that's part of triggered the RQ (beside me disclosing the US green card on my application), can they be held accountable?
you know I've seen a lot of people laying on their applications and hiding things to the immigration.. but still got away with and become Canadians, but from part i always was truthful and transparent (my way of life), but i won't change who i'm or the way i living because of that, Canada in my home and family's and i love it so much (that never change), we'll be hitting our goal next year and we're moving back.
i hope that was helpful for some of you, i'm giving back to this forum.
Thanks,
 

sba

Star Member
May 13, 2017
78
5
Hello,
in short the hearing didn't went very well, after documents verification (which supposed to be just 2 IDs) the agent there asked me for My health card, driver's license, landing document, PR, all the passports (old and new) and a copy, i went in for videoconference hearing (for almost an hour), the judge was very unfriendly right of the gate, and he started giving me a speech by stating that the Canadian citizenship need to be earned and it's not a right.... i haven't said anything yet at this point (that was strange start), So he start reading some documents listing my entry/exit (and the fact i was short in days), but through out his lecture i spotted couple mistakes made by the CIC office that interviewed me after the Citizenship test, first she wrongly reported my landing date by 20 days short, and another entry by 10 days, and she made some assumption that my spouse (Canadian citizen) was working in US for years based on her search in Linkedin (believe it or not) and i haven't visited him.
so i get a chance finally to correct the records and the baseless assumption of the officer about my spouse, now after 15 minutes the judge double checked all the information i provided and admitted that those were mistakes from the CIC officer and my meet all the residency requirements and i even had more days than that's required by the citizenship application ( from that point he started to be more friendly).
Now his issue with my application shifted to something else, which is the fact that i had a greed card (we got it 4 months before i applied, but i never spent a night in US), couple months later and my spouse moved to US for a job -few weeks after my application- , so followed him in order to keep our family together (to the judge that was the issue), i don't have ties to Canada even that we left everything all out banks accounts saving, RRSP, cell phones lines,.....) none of that was considered ties to him and he keep repeating that he lean more to the denial and sometime it's best to withdraw versus getting the denial (it was really depressing), anyway that's what happened.
All my kids,spouse are Canadians, his move to US was purely for financial reasons, to save and be able to afford a house in Canada and move back: My questions here to the seniors contributors is : I applies under the old rules 3/5 where the intent to living in Canada wasn't there, does it still apply to me? the fact that i met all the requirements when i applied for the citizenship application, and i move to US was after that legally can affect my application?
the mistake of the calculation was made by the CIC officer that's part of triggered the RQ (beside me disclosing the US green card on my application), can they be held accountable?
you know I've seen a lot of people laying on their applications and hiding things to the immigration.. but still got away with and become Canadians, but from part i always was truthful and transparent (my way of life), but i won't change who i'm or the way i living because of that, Canada in my home and family's and i love it so much (that never change), we'll be hitting our goal next year and we're moving back.
i hope that was helpful for some of you, i'm giving back to this forum.
Thanks,
Dear friend,
Thank you very much , didnot you talkvtoba lawyer beg
fore hearing?
when will they tell you the result?
 

sba

Star Member
May 13, 2017
78
5
I just have one more question, in case that your application is denied, can you apply again?
after how long?
do you recommend withdrowing application, before judge hearing? in case that you donot know the time of hearing, and some people say it might ta