Action against CIC? (Legal or otherwise)

[mpottier]

Hi All!

I haven't posted here in a long time. My American wife and I have had a long journey with CIC and just want any opinions people may have.

I'm a Canadian citizen born and raised, my wife is from Maine (might as well be the same country), we met while teaching overseas in Seoul, South Korea. We have been together for over 7 years and married for the last two. My wife was banned from Canada due to criminality because of a DUI in 2009. We applied for PR nonetheless and a temporary resident permit (TRP) simultaneously. Our legal rep suggested that our TRP s would have more of a chance of being successful if we show that we want PR. After 17 months our PR was rejected as anticipated and our TRP was processed and given to us a few months later. We were successful and my wife's TRP was good for 3 years! We were quite happy with this outcome and chose not to pursue contending the refused PR on humanitarian grounds, as a 3 year TRP would allow her to apply for a work permit and was long enough for her to get "rehabilitation" after 3 years.

Yet after this lengthy and costly exercise, upon entry to Canada (Via Toronto Pearson) my wife presented the TRP document to the CBSA officer so she could receive the actual TRP. She received the TRP and was sent on her way, BUT the TRP was only good for 1 year. This was a significant difference and we didn't notice this until arriving in Halifax. We were given no reason for this change, or notification, so we assumed it must have been an error. We called the CIC and they told us CBSA's decision is final, and they make all the final calls and they must have had good reason to take off 2 years from her permit. We tried calling everyone we could think of including my MP, to no avail, we were stuck with this reduced permit.

My wife could still apply for a work permit and renew the TRP but the cost and processing time, not to mention complicated logistics, proved unworkable by design. By the time she got a work permit her TRP would have to be renewed, thus creating a vicious cycle of shortened permits, with no guarantee that they would be approved and my wife would be constantly living in fear that her time would be up (also who is going to hire someone who is constantly in the middle of getting a visa processed?).

Nevertheless, we did try to live in Canada but upon applying for a new TRP, the process took almost 9 months, and during this time she was encouraged by CIC not to leave Canada as she may have trouble re-entering as her permit was being processed. So after being told she was inadmissible to Canada, she was now being told not to leave Canada?! Furthermore, upon receiving the new/second TRP, it was also only good for a year and this time it was single entry. What kind of Immigration department issues a 1 year single entry permit/visa? It's unheard of. Again, my wife was being told not to leave Canada because she was inadmissible to Canada?!?!

We had enough. No one was giving us answers, and I couldn't stand seeing my wife being tortured in this way. We left Canada and returned to Korea to teach elementary school. My wife received her Korean teaching visa in 5 days with no problems. In Korea I applied for my American Green Card at the embassy, it took one month and cost HALF of what Canadian PR cost. I was shocked and appalled.

Currently we spend our time between the USA and the UK. My wife was accepted to Grad school in London and is currently studying under a Tier 4 student visa. Again no problems for her in gaining this. Ironically I now work as a Visa compliance officer for a university and work with the CIC and UKVI on a regular basis.

With my new found inside track to immigration officials, I questioned why my wife was only granted a 1 year TRP rather than 3. Upon a lengthy phone conversation with the supervisor of CBSA at Pearson, I discovered that my wife was given a reduced 1 year TRP because her PR was refused. This was very odd as the very reason she was given a 3 year TRP was BECAUSE her PR was refused. Three years would allow her to reapply for PR after it's expiry without applying for new permits constantly. The supervisor said there was nothing they could have done as it is policy for CBSA to reduce it to one year if the PR was refused. They very rarely grant 3 years and this is only for people awaiting the result of their PR. In other words, the CIC either granted my wife a 3 year TRP in error or ignorance of CBSA's policy. Either way they screwed up royal, as it destroyed our chance to live in Canada, and essentially banished me as I wan't going to abandon my wife in the USA right across the border in Maine. It also cost us a small fortune in fees and caused us serious mental stress. All this for a misdemeanor from 6 years ago!?! Is this the best way to spend CIC's resources?

My wife also recently received 'rehabilitation' so she is now admissible to Canada, and it's like nothing ever happened now, apparently 5 years is some sort of magic number. The CIC and CBSA have told me repeatedly that the 5 years banishment is not meant to be a punishment, but how can it not be? My wife is from Maine, half her family both through marriage and blood are from Canada. The only way she could of entered Canada was to pay money and time, in other words a fine. This is the very definition of a punishment and I believe CIC is way over their head and over the line in enforcing it.

We thought about applying for PR again recently but the processing time for spousal PR now is 40 months for out-land applications at the New York office!? We can't even do this now, as it is inhumanly long, and we refuse to pay for more work permits while she waits. The USA, Korea, and the UK have been good to us, and far more welcoming, we will most likely make our lives in the US, while my home province of Nova Scotia ponders why they are losing population.

I am really considering taking action against the CIC, perhaps legal action. I realize we did actually receive permits, but they were riddled with errors and forced us to leave Canada and our family. What makes it even more heart breaking is that my wife was tantalizingly close to Canada in a border town in Maine.

Has anyone ever taken legal action against the CIC before? Or is there some way to address this with the CIC? (internal audit review of your case). If anyone has any ideas, I am eager to hear them.

Many Thanks!

 

[Ponga]

Sorry to hear about your roller coaster ride, which are supposed to be fun!

The processing time for an American is NOT 40 months (in most cases). Most Americans see a total processing time of ~8-10 months, because their applications are processed in Ottawa. Only those with red flags have their applications sent to NY or LA.

Having said that, your wife's original PR denial, along with her previous inadmissibility issues, could mean a longer processing time.

One [painful] option, would be for her to submit an Inland application from within Canada. If she includes the Open Work Permit (OWP) with the Inland application, she will have legal status in Canada throughout the entire process, which is a blazing ~26 months total. The good news, is that she'd be allowed to work with the OWP, which she would receive ~ 4 months after the OWP was sent. The biggest caveat with the Inland application, is that the applicant is strongly cautioned to remain in Canada for the entire `ride'.


Good luck!

 

[scylla]

As Ponga explained, your case will be processed through Ottawa (not NY). Expect the process to be completed in under a year.

I'm not sure on what basis you would sue CIC. I think you would just end up spending more money and getting more frustrated without getting any benefit in return.

Good luck.

 

[mpottier]

Thanks for the thoughts. Currently the Ottawa processing centre is posting 17 months processing times for Americans plus the 63 days for the first portion of the application. So we would be pushing 20 months (really not that much different than inland). Am I missing something or has the CIC as usual not updated their times? I don't think we will want to live in Canada now anyway, my wife to say the least is not in the love with the country, and I have my Green Card. Also it is kind of cool to be able to live and work anywhere in the USA, it really opens up a lot more options with regards to employment. If we ever decide to go for PR hopefully the new Liberal government will have kept their promise and make the processing times a matter of days/weeks like the rest of the world.

Currently in the UK, the processing times for a spousal visa can be as fast as 1 day! (although they do have other issues like minimum income for sponsors).

PS. if you submit and open work permit application with your inland PR application, how long does it take to get the OWP and begin working?

 

[sashali78]

As Ponga explained, your case will be processed through Ottawa (not NY). Expect the process to be completed in under a year.

I'm not sure on what basis you would sue CIC. I think you would just end up spending more money and getting more frustrated without getting any benefit in return.

Good luck.

I also agree that legal path against CIC would be futile. But, your story seems interesting and (unfortunately) frustrating enough for the media. I wonder if you try to go public with CBC that can actually help and expedite your processing.

 

[Rob_TO]

Thanks for the thoughts. Currently the Ottawa processing centre is posting 17 months processing times for Americans plus the 63 days for the first portion of the application. So we would be pushing 20 months (really not that much different than inland). Am I missing something or has the CIC as usual not updated their times? I don't think we will want to live in Canada now anyway, my wife to say the least is not in the love with the country, and I have my Green Card. Also it is kind of cool to be able to live and work anywhere in the USA, it really opens up a lot more options with regards to employment. If we ever decide to go for PR hopefully the new Liberal government will have kept their promise and make the processing times a matter of days/weeks like the rest of the world.

Currently in the UK, the processing times for a spousal visa can be as fast as 1 day! (although they do have other issues like minimum income for sponsors).

PS. if you submit and open work permit application with your inland PR application, how long does it take to get the OWP and begin working?

The times on CIC site for Ottawa are accurate but they are NOT average processing times, CIC states they are 80% processing time meaning they are more worst case times for the slowest 20% of apps. 80% are finished within that time and in most cases quicker. CIC does not provide average processing time info for outland apps, but based on people on this site tracking the info most people are done in under 1 year.

Also CBSA is entirely within their rights to adjust the length of stay for any traveler arriving in Canada, despite if they have a visa or other document that was approved for some different time. So what others have said is right, and legal action would just be a huge waste of time and money.

And I highly doubt your US green card application would have gone so smoothly if you had a criminal conviction on your record like your partner did when trying to apply to Canada. The 2 processes you encountered are not really comparable.

 

[o6ocpaka]

Based on your story - No you can't sue CIC, everything looks legit.
Good luck in Korea though, and thanks for showing your interest in Canada

 

[mpottier]

Thanks all. I wish I was super rich I would just hire lawyers out of spite. At least it would get the word out. I also thought about going to the press, but my wife is obviously hesitant, she doesn't exactly want to be put in the public eye. We are currently happy living between the UK and the USA.

I actually did inquire with the US embassy in Korea as to whether I would have trouble getting my Green card if I had the same issue as my wife. As misdemeanors are not automatic denials in the USA, it would just be a matter of processing time and documentation. Since the Green Card processing time for out of country is around 4-6 weeks it's not really an issue, even if it took twice as long. For Canada until the 5 year time period is up, it is an automatic denial, their is no recourse except humanitarian grounds appeal in Montreal.

 

[SamHom]

Thanks all. I wish I was super rich I would just hire lawyers out of spite. At least it would get the word out. I also thought about going to the press, but my wife is obviously hesitant, she doesn't exactly want to be put in the public eye. We are currently happy living between the UK and the USA.

I actually did inquire with the US embassy in Korea as to whether I would have trouble getting my Green card if I had the same issue as my wife. As misdemeanors are not automatic denials in the USA, it would just be a matter of processing time and documentation. Since the Green Card processing time for out of country is around 4-6 weeks it's not really an issue, even if it took twice as long. For Canada until the 5 year time period is up, it is an automatic denial, their is no recourse except humanitarian grounds appeal in Montreal.

I'm not necessarily defending CIC or CBSA, but another thing to take into account is the vast social differences between the countries. When you come to Canada you get free health care, possibilities of social assistance in the future or directly for some, subsidized education and the list goes on. Maybe that's why they are making the process more complicated and possibly look into things more throughly.

 

[mpottier]

Well Canada and the USA, as far as two different countries go , are very similar. Most people are shocked to learn that our two countries don't have some sort of free movement agreement like Australia and New Zealand or the EU. However, my wife is from Maine and they actually have health care and subsidized university in that state. If it is as good as Canada'a is debatable, but I don't think anyone from New England is clawing their eyes out to commit marriage fraud to enter Canada. So I doubt the CIC takes that into account. Normally the USA and other developed countries are not pegged as high risk. The only difference is that the USA and Canada signed an agreement to share their citizens info via their passports. So if Canadians enter the USA, the border officials can see everything you ever did. Same goes with Americans coming to Canada. It has been under some scrutiny since a Canadian woman's private medical history showed up in the American database, and she was refused entry. So if you are worried about privacy don't travel to the States, and if you already have, too late.

 

[rugrat907]

Thanks all. I wish I was super rich I would just hire lawyers out of spite. At least it would get the word out. I also thought about going to the press, but my wife is obviously hesitant, she doesn't exactly want to be put in the public eye. We are currently happy living between the UK and the USA.

I actually did inquire with the US embassy in Korea as to whether I would have trouble getting my Green card if I had the same issue as my wife. As misdemeanors are not automatic denials in the USA, it would just be a matter of processing time and documentation. Since the Green Card processing time for out of country is around 4-6 weeks it's not really an issue, even if it took twice as long. For Canada until the 5 year time period is up, it is an automatic denial, their is no recourse except humanitarian grounds appeal in Montreal.

I'll just say, as someone who had a very dear friend die in an auto accident because of a drunk driver, I would not mind one bit if the U.S. treated DUI with the same serious consequences as Canada.

 

[nmclean]

I'm not necessarily defending CIC or CBSA, but another thing to take into account is the vast social differences between the countries. When you come to Canada you get free health care, possibilities of social assistance in the future or directly for some, subsidized education and the list goes on. Maybe that's why they are making the process more complicated and possibly look into things more throughly.

But there are cultural differences too. In the US, there is a lot of pride in being what they consider the best country in the world, regardless of what the actual differences are, and a stronger attitude against people gaining benefits that they "don't deserve". And Canada is a place that is culturally so welcoming that signs are put up to remind people that it's not always a good idea:

So out of the two countries, if one is deliberately making the process more complicated, I would not expect it to be Canada.

Well Canada and the USA, as far as two different countries go , are very similar. Most people are shocked to learn that our two countries don't have some sort of free movement agreement like Australia and New Zealand or the EU. However, my wife is from Maine and they actually have health care and subsidized university in that state. If it is as good as Canada'a is debatable, but I don't think anyone from New England is clawing their eyes out to commit marriage fraud to enter Canada.

I've been there. It's basically Canada. They even have maple syrup. The only difference between Canada and New England is that Target hasn't abandoned New England yet.

 

[Rob_TO]

There is no question Canada's family immigration system is long and cumbersome. However as others have noted, that is because Canada is one of the most desirable countries in the world to come to due to our public healthcare and social services that would be available to everyone upon arrival. Compared to the US as a whole, the 2 are not comparable.
Also there are several aspects to the US immigration system that are not as good. I'm no expert in the green card process, but what i've heard is that there is a minimum income the US sponsor must meet to even qualify to sponsor their spouse (which doesn't exist in Canada), and once you get status the Canadian PR is much easier to hold on to even if you permanently leave the country with your spouse, which is not so in the US.

With the Canadian process being 3-4x as long and more difficult and expensive for US citizens, wouldn't you expect that the vast majority of Canada/US couples would simply decide to immigrate to the US instead? Yet there is no shortage of US citizens willing to go through the long process of immigrating to Canada. I'd be curious to see stats on number of US/Canada families applying to US green card vs Canada PR each year.

 

[Ponga]

I'm not necessarily defending CIC or CBSA, but another thing to take into account is the vast social differences between the countries. When you come to Canada you get free health care, possibilities of social assistance in the future or directly for some, subsidized education and the list goes on. Maybe that's why they are making the process more complicated and possibly look into things more throughly.

Just to clarify, health care is not free in every Province in Canada. And in most cases, the person isn't even eligible for coverage immediately.

 

[SamHom]

Just to clarify, health care is not free in every Province in Canada. And in most cases, the person isn't even eligible for coverage immediately.

Well, eligible within a matter of months.

In what provinces is it not free, or at least extremely close to? In many Scandinavian countries you have to pay around 10 bucks for a doctors visit, but it's still considered universal "free" health care.