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Accident so cannot travel for 1 month. PR obligation day count??

joy01

Full Member
Jul 31, 2014
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Hello,
I met with an accident on 8-Mar. My doctor advised for bed rest for 2 months.
In Nov-2021, I had booked my tickets to relocate to Canada on 3-Apr. But I have not recovered yet and cannot travel so have got my tickets rescheduled to 28-Apr.

My PR obligation day count of 730 days (out of 5 years) starts on 11-May-2022 (soft landed on 11-May-2019). Unfortunately, due to accident, I have lost 25 days from that extra day count beyond 730 days. I mean if I had travelled on 3-Apr, I could have taken a 1 month vacation out of Canada in 2023 while maintaining the PR obligation day count.
But I am now restricted to only 13 day vacation.
Can I explain this to immigration office through some email to request them to count my PR obligation day count from 3-Apr instead of from my landing on 28-Apr?

Thanks a lot for helping.
Jatin
 

jakklondon

Hero Member
Oct 17, 2021
582
139
Hello,
I met with an accident on 8-Mar. My doctor advised for bed rest for 2 months.
In Nov-2021, I had booked my tickets to relocate to Canada on 3-Apr. But I have not recovered yet and cannot travel so have got my tickets rescheduled to 28-Apr.

My PR obligation day count of 730 days (out of 5 years) starts on 11-May-2022 (soft landed on 11-May-2019). Unfortunately, due to accident, I have lost 25 days from that extra day count beyond 730 days. I mean if I had travelled on 3-Apr, I could have taken a 1 month vacation out of Canada in 2023 while maintaining the PR obligation day count.
But I am now restricted to only 13 day vacation.
Can I explain this to immigration office through some email to request them to count my PR obligation day count from 3-Apr instead of from my landing on 28-Apr?

Thanks a lot for helping.
Jatin
Did you criticize Orwellian Triple Hermetic Secret Worshippers? Those sissy pricks (the most influential among them look like old snails) sometimes watch too much of Godfather of Coppola and do arrange accidents for political critics LOL (J/K)

On a serious note: anything that happens outside of your control (for which you have doc's orders) should serve as valid excuse to miss legal obligation. You can even be excused from appearing in court where you were summoned, if there is a proof that you were physically unable to do so. Doctor's notes must be official, documented and state clearly that you were incapacitated.
 
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joy01

Full Member
Jul 31, 2014
20
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I have hospital discharge letter from doctor advising bed rest for 2 months due to ankle fracture.
Will it be enough? How do I inform Immigration? Should I email now and inform them of the situation? If yes, which email address?

Did you criticize Orwellian Triple Hermetic Secret Worshippers? Those sissy pricks (the most influential among them look like old snails) sometimes watch too much of Godfather of Coppola and do arrange accidents for political critics LOL (J/K)

On a serious note: anything that happens outside of your control (for which you have doc's orders) should serve as valid excuse to miss legal obligation. You can even be excused from appearing in court where you were summoned, if there is a proof that you were physically unable to do so. Doctor's notes must be official, documented and state clearly that you were incapacitated.
 

jakklondon

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Oct 17, 2021
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I have hospital discharge letter from doctor advising bed rest for 2 months due to ankle fracture.
Will it be enough? How do I inform Immigration? Should I email now and inform them of the situation? If yes, which email address?
If I were you I would consult licensed Canadian immigration attorney and ask.
 

scylla

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Hello,
I met with an accident on 8-Mar. My doctor advised for bed rest for 2 months.
In Nov-2021, I had booked my tickets to relocate to Canada on 3-Apr. But I have not recovered yet and cannot travel so have got my tickets rescheduled to 28-Apr.

My PR obligation day count of 730 days (out of 5 years) starts on 11-May-2022 (soft landed on 11-May-2019). Unfortunately, due to accident, I have lost 25 days from that extra day count beyond 730 days. I mean if I had travelled on 3-Apr, I could have taken a 1 month vacation out of Canada in 2023 while maintaining the PR obligation day count.
But I am now restricted to only 13 day vacation.
Can I explain this to immigration office through some email to request them to count my PR obligation day count from 3-Apr instead of from my landing on 28-Apr?

Thanks a lot for helping.
Jatin
IRCC will not change the date from which they count your residency obligation.
 

jakklondon

Hero Member
Oct 17, 2021
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IRCC will not change the date from which they count your residency obligation.
They don't have to. He will be in violation of RO. Should illiterate high-school drop-out bully at the border report him for breach of RO, he can appeal it to IAD, and when asked WHY he breached RO can present evidence of fracture, and the bedrest order received from his treating physician. If his RO is limited strictly to period while he was incapacitated (and not due to him voluntarily choosing to stay out of Canada), I see no reason why his H&C would be denied, unless you have Nazi regime in Canada that demands someone with broken and bleeding leg/ankle to crawl into airplane and fly to Canada.
 
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Tubsmagee

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Jul 2, 2016
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This is a great example of why you shouldn’t hold off on establishing yourself in Canada until the last minute, things happen.
 
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armoured

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Feb 1, 2015
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I have hospital discharge letter from doctor advising bed rest for 2 months due to ankle fracture.
Will it be enough? How do I inform Immigration? Should I email now and inform them of the situation? If yes, which email address?
No, you can't do anything about it in advance - you pitch up at the border and make your case. Bring you hospital discharge docs with you in case they ask to see them.

Note, unfortunately there's no guarantee that whatever leniency you get this time around will be granted in future - so basically you should plan on remaining in Canada with as little travel outside as possible until you are back in compliance. Don't apply to renew your PR card until back in compliance, too.
 
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jakklondon

Hero Member
Oct 17, 2021
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This is a great example of why you shouldn’t hold off on establishing yourself in Canada until the last minute, things happen.
Our subjective opinion about laws and regulations aside (we may approve or disapprove them), the standing law/regulation is that you must spent 730 days in Canada out of 5 years. This means, you can spend all the time, up to the day it touches 730 day limit, outside of the Canada. Nothing in law says "you should do this and that" or "you should allow for accident or cancer diagnosis/surgery" and so on. None of it is written into law. So, this man did nothing wrong if he spent 3 years out of Canada and on his way to airport to board plane into Canada got into accident and broke his leg. It would be interesting to watch how would it play out in court/IAD appeal. Obviously, many idiots and illiterate drop-outs/bullies at the border would order him deported and report him. Question is: in light of existing law, how will IAD look at it? If the man has legitimate cause (medical records, doctors' notes, doctors' deposition via Zoom and etc.), what will IAD tell him? That he was wrong staying out of Canada up to the limit that is permitted under existing law? Or that it was his fault that he got into accident and broke his leg on his way to airport? Or "we couldn't care less about your incapacitation, you had to get your a-s-s to Canada on that day"?
What do you really think will happen (provided this is a good faith, legitimate case, with verifiable documents, medical records, doctors' orders and etc.)?
 
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armoured

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Feb 1, 2015
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This is a great example of why you shouldn’t hold off on establishing yourself in Canada until the last minute, things happen.
While I think (emphasis, personal opinion only) that actual hospital discharge papers and doctor's instructions are fairly incontrovertible evidence that CBSA (and IAD should it come to appeal) would have to take into account.

BUT: I fully support your point, because EVEN IF one is waved through by CBSA, that leniency (recognition of an actual H&C factor) does NOT mean that the PR is absolved of future inconveniences or problems that indirectly result from not having returned earlier.

Or in simple terms: even if you get H&C consideration (formally or informally), the rule that "things happen" still applies. It is prudent and useful to have a buffer for all sorts of reasons.
 
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dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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I met with an accident on 8-Mar. My doctor advised for bed rest for 2 months.
In Nov-2021, I had booked my tickets to relocate to Canada on 3-Apr. But I have not recovered yet and cannot travel so have got my tickets rescheduled to 28-Apr.

My PR obligation day count of 730 days (out of 5 years) starts on 11-May-2022 (soft landed on 11-May-2019). Unfortunately, due to accident, I have lost 25 days from that extra day count beyond 730 days. I mean if I had travelled on 3-Apr, I could have taken a 1 month vacation out of Canada in 2023 while maintaining the PR obligation day count.
But I am now restricted to only 13 day vacation.
Can I explain this to immigration office through some email to request them to count my PR obligation day count from 3-Apr instead of from my landing on 28-Apr?

I have hospital discharge letter from doctor advising bed rest for 2 months due to ankle fracture.
Will it be enough? How do I inform Immigration? Should I email now and inform them of the situation? If yes, which email address?
Mostly take note of what is stated by veteran, reliable forum participants @scylla, @armoured, and @Tubsmagee.

For context and clarification, some further observations:

The PR Residency Obligation is imposed by law. It is a simple formula: count the days within the relevant five years. There are various ways of describing how to practically count during the first five years, but it comes down to this:
-- as long as the PR is NOT outside Canada for more than 1095 days during the first five years, the PR is complying with the PR Residency Obligation​
-- if the PR is outside Canada for more than 1095 days during the first five years, the PR is NOT complying with the PR Residency Obligation, and thus is in breach​

Neither IRCC nor CBSA have authority to change how that works.

Both, however, have fairly broad discretion in how they enforce the RO. And, before making a decision to terminate a PR's status (such as issue a Removal Order following a Report of inadmissibility for a breach of the RO), both MUST CONSIDER whether the PR should be allowed to keep PR status based on H&C factors.

So . . .
. . . if you return to Canada before you have been abroad less than 1095 days, following a soft landing, you are in compliance with the RO.
. . . if during the first five years since landing you return to Canada (soon, or after a later trip abroad) and have been outside Canada more than 1095 days, you are in breach of the RO.

In the latter situation it appears that CBSA border officials are continuing to exercise quite a lot of leeway and leniency in regards to RO enforcement, as in NOT conducting in-depth screening and waiving many PRs in breach into Canada without subjecting them to a rigorous RO examination. For a PR in breach there is always a RISK otherwise. We cannot quantify that risk beyond ballpark generalities related to some factors. For example, the longer the absences, the bigger the risk.

Appears you are still abroad and, well, cutting-it-close. Caution expressed by @Tubsmagee and noted by @armoured is well worth taking into consideration . . . both in terms of following through and getting here, and in terms of staying or at least not leaving again for a period of time that will result in a breach of the RO.

No matter how close you are cutting-it-close, as long as you do not breach the RO it does not matter why you failed to come to Canada sooner to establish a permanent residence here. No explanation necessary. Why is none of the Canadian government's concern, in practice not just theory. They will not ask (for a PR cutting-it-close border officials may caution them about the RO, but they will not require an explanation for the absence).

If you fail to return to Canada in time, that is are absent for more than 1095 days before coming, or you return but leave again resulting in a total absence of more than 1095 days (before the fifth year anniversary of landing), again, you will be in breach of the RO. And that is a different story.

Determining whether the PR is in breach of the RO or not, that is not complicated. Count the days.

In compliance, end of story. No problem. In breach, again that is a different story . . . leading to the dynamics of RO enforcement.

In particular, where it gets complicated is on the enforcement side of the equation once there is a breach of the RO. What is not easily calculated is how strict or how lenient border officials will be, including:
-- first, in screening a returning PR in regards to RO compliance, and​
-- secondly, in weighing H&C factors if during the PoE examination the PR is determined to be in breach of the RO​

Many PRs in breach of the RO are being waived through the PoE without being closely examined in regards to RO compliance, let alone required to present H&C reasons sufficient to allow them to keep PR status despite the breach. The nature and scope of this is the subject of many discussions here. Some claim it is a roll of the dice but in reality the highly variable outcomes are mostly the result of widely variable facts. Forecasting an outcome depending on variable facts and complex calculations subject to contingencies should not be confused with predicting an outcome determined by chance. How it goes in RO enforcement is more the former, mostly the former (but, sure, acknowledging chance plays some role . . . way, way less than many describe).

The first part is about the extent a PR is subject to a strict or lenient screening upon arrival. It is not worth diving into all the nuances but generally if you arrive here, even if a little in breach of the RO, and stay for a year, and then take a holiday abroad in a year, and return from that holiday in breach of the RO (but still no more than a little in breach), as FAR as WE CAN DISCERN, it is far more likely you will NOT encounter a strict RO examination when you return here, meaning the odds are PROBABLY rather good you would be waived back into Canada without being "Reported" despite being in breach of the RO.

As others have aptly noted, that is a determination that cannot be made in advance. It depends, after all, on the specific facts as they exist on that particular day.

H&C factors can and almost certainly will play some role in how that first part goes. This includes the biggest H&C factor, the extent to which the PR is (or appears to be) short of the RO. And this is where there tends to be the most leeway and leniency in PR RO enforcement.

In terms of the practical impact, getting waived in is roughly the same as being in RO compliance. And we see many anecdotal reports that scores of PRs in breach benefit from this leniency in enforcement, especially during the first five years after landing, especially those who are only a little short of meeting the RO, and especially during the last couple years (it is almost certain) due to additional leniency related to accommodations for the impact of the Covid-related global pandemic.

Leading to if and when the PR in breach is NOT waived through, more or less casually, but is subject to a more formal, in-depth RO compliance examination at the PoE upon their arrival here. What I referred to as the second part. And that is where it really can be a different story, a very different story.

And this is where I will quibble some, just a bit, with @armoured's analysis about taking into account medical evidence explaining . . . if I understand things . . . a reason for being abroad . . . two or four months? Sure, this information might help influence leniency and a casual waive through. But if the PoE procedure goes to the second phase of examination, that's not going to weigh much at all. It is correct that if and when border officials prepare a 44(1) Report against a PR in breach of the RO, the reviewing officer (technically the Minister's Delegate, but practically just another CBSA immigration officer) must consider any and all explanations for the PR's absence in assessing whether the PR should be allowed to keep PR status based on H&C factors (same by the IAD if a Removal Order is issued and appealed). But if the OP is subject of a 44(1) Report for a breach of the RO, upon returning from a vacation in 2023, how does not being able to travel for four months in early 2022 explain being absent from Canada for more than three years? Let's be frank, it doesn't. That is not likely to tip the scales in favour of not being issued a Departure Order at the PoE, and if that happens it is not going to carry much weight before the IAD in an appeal.

The H&C case is not about getting additional days' credit to add to days in Canada, to reach the 730 threshold; that's not how it works. Without going there now, I apprehend there is a tendency to overlook how steep a climb making the H&C case is once it has been determined the PR is in breach of the RO. At the PoE. More so if it is necessary to appeal a Removal Order.
 
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jakklondon

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Oct 17, 2021
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OP, you can safely disregard lengthy pontifications of dilettantes. If in doubt - consult licensed immigration attorney. My understanding of law and principles of justice (not specific law applicable to your case, but of law as instrument of Justice) allows me to venture a guess that any time you are forced to stay out of Canada without your control or choice over it will have to be considered by IAD in your favor, and only highly prejudicial or blatantly unjust court would hold you liable for action that occurred outside of your control. It would be like blaming a man for a car accident because he lost control of his vehicle prior to crash due to sudden and unexpected stroke, or putting man in jail for contempt of court because he failed to show up in court after a car struck him and broke his legs on his way to court. No law operates like that (only complete idiot thinks that it does). But don't take my word for it (or anyone else's for this matter), just consult a licensed immigration attorney who will tell you what your options and potential outcomes are.
 
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armoured

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Feb 1, 2015
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And this is where I will quibble some, just a bit, with @armoured's analysis about taking into account medical evidence explaining . . . if I understand things . . . a reason for being abroad . . . two or four months?
...
But if the OP is subject of a 44(1) Report for a breach of the RO, upon returning from a vacation in 2023, how does not being able to travel for four months in early 2022 explain being absent from Canada for more than three years? Let's be frank, it doesn't.
On re-reading, I realise that I misunderstood the original question (or perhaps conflated with another thread), taking it to be a question about returning to Canada while out of compliance (caused by the medical issue).

Mea culpa.

That's not the case here, where it's about returning in compliance but with a very small 'buffer' of only a few weeks. My mistake, comments from others were correct - there is no mechanism to reset, and hence all future travel out of compliance will be subject to the same risks. (Which may be high or small depending on circumstances, but that's a separate question).

And yes, any future breaches in eg 2023 will likely get close to nil consideration for medical issues that occurred in 2022 (and unrelated to the travel in 2022).
 
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joy01

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Jul 31, 2014
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Thanks @armoured @jakklondon @dpenabill @scylla @Tubsmagee.

So my understanding after reading all the replies is that since I'm landing on 28-Apr-2022,
1. I have nothing to worry while maintaining 730 days PRO till end of my 5 year period (11-May-2024).
2. However I will be restricted in taking a vacation in 2023 and I will get NIL consideration if I take a 21+ days vacation (751-730 days), based on 11may19 to 10may24 period with 8 days soft landing presence in 2019 + 28apr22 to 10may24 permanent presence). I used this calculator:
Physical Presence Calculator (cic.gc.ca)
3. And even if I email now about my fracture, I cannot seek PRO consideration for my future absence of 22+ days in 2023 (to attend my brother's wedding next summer).
Please let me know if my understanding is correct.

Many thanks for your answers. I greatly appreciate all the helpful information in this forum.
 

armoured

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Feb 1, 2015
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2. However I will be restricted in taking a vacation in 2023 and I will get NIL consideration if I take a 21+ days vacation
I think all of what you wrote is correct, but I would phrase the above slightly differently:
-You will likely get not much consideration for things that happened in 2022 before you came to reside in Canada. Well, maybe not zero.

BUT: you may get 'enough' consideration in 2023 (eg for your proposed trip) if the amount of non-compliance is small, your'e obviously resident in Canada, your trip is not very long, it's a one-off, etc.

Lots of residents get such consideration or leniency when somewhat out of compliance - it's just not a zero-risk situation, and the consequences are potentially significant. Only you can decide whether that risk is acceptable to you.

For the time being I'd just return to Canada and play it safe for the year and make that decision later.

Note as referred to above, being out of compliance, even small amounts, may lead to inconveniences (more or less serious) down the road, like not being able to renew your PR card for a bit longer. PRs who are not in compliance also can't sponsor spouses, for example.
 
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