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9:43 P.M. CBC Declares Liberal Party Win!!!

rajmalhotra7

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screech339 said:
Funny that when Harper finally won a majority in 2011 with 39.6% of the votes, the media called it a SERIOUS AFFRONT TO DEMOCRACY.

Now that Trudeau won a majority with 39.4% of the votes (less than Harper), the media called it a "LANDSLIDE"?

And media always claimed their reports are "NEUTRAL"? Don't make me laugh.

And you guys wondered why Harper had to handle his caucus and the media the way he had done. We all know that media are generally severely bias against conservatives.
You have assumed that media statements were based on % of vote share. We do not know what facts/figures media has looked at before making statements. For example, here is another outlook, based on # of seats won.

In 2011, Conservatives got 166 seats as compared to 143 seats in 2008. It is an increase of 23 seats (16.08% increase) from 2008 to 2011.

In 2015, Liberals got 184 seats as compared to 34 seats in 2008. It is an increase of 150 seats (441.17% increase) from 2011 to 2015.
 

dpenabill

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To be clear, the media did not portray the 2011 election results to be an affront to democracy.

In the ensuing years, however, PM Harper's manner of governing was so described, not much by mainstream media but by a growing chorus of critics who were alarmed, for well-founded reasons, by the extent to which Harper closed the door to even consultation with the members of his own caucus, let alone members of the opposition parties, and even to major stakeholders. Almost all legislation, for example, including hugely important bills like Bill C-23 (dramatically revising the law governing Canadian elections), Bill C-24 (citizenship), and Bill C-51 (adding profound powers of surveillance with minimal oversight), was drafted behind closed doors, largely in secret, by a small inner circle of individuals close to Harper, and then rammed through the legislative process with minimal study or debate. Even Harper's own caucus was kept in the dark until the legislation was tabled. Even stakeholders in the government, let alone those outside government, were minimally consulted.

Anyone who spent much time watching Question Period over the last four years could easily see for herself the extent to which Harper refused to so much as even engage in the democratic process, refusing to answer even straight-forward questions of fact, key questions of importance on key issues facing the country.

In addition Harper implemented all sorts of other undemocratic policies, ranging from silencing government researchers to all but defunding the Information Commissioners office while at the same time stonewalling or outright denying scores and scores of legitimate information requests. Under his government scientists faced discipline for merely writing and performing folk songs unrelated to their employment.

We saw the impact on citizenship: under his government important Operational Bulletins governing procedure were excluded from the public view, ATI requests about basic bureaucratic practices were increasingly and drastically subject to redaction, and major changes to policy and practice were drafted in secret in the PMO and then dumped on CIC in a way that almost brought the processing of citizenship applications to a grinding halt (the 2012 implementation of OB 407, much of which is still concealed from public view; note that internal CIC memos obtained through the ATI process reveal the extent to which this was imposed from the top down with virtually no serious input from those who actually did the work in CIC, an obvious recipe for disaster, and it was, indeed, a disaster, and tens of thousands of qualified applicants are still mired in egregiously unfair delays still, years later).

In contrast, many previous majority governments in Canada were similarly elected by around 40% of the popular vote and they worked with opposition parties to govern Canada on behalf of all Canadians. (The media pundits estimate that 38.5% of the popular vote is the practical threshold for establishing a majority government.)

Justin Trudeau has promised to listen to each and every member of Parliament with respect, all 338 members, because even if they are a member outside the Liberal Party, they were nonetheless elected to represent the Canadians in their riding. And their opinion matters. Their opinion should be respected and considered.

The difference is huge. Whether Trudeau can keep this promise, or to what extent he can actually follow through with it, remains to be seen. A big clue will emerge in how Trudeau conducts himself during Question Period after Parliament is back in session.

While perhaps largely symbolic, Trudeau's appearance in the Press Galley this week, willing to openly address questions from reporters, illustrates oceanic differences in the approach to governing. I adamantly hope he keeps it up, difficult though it is sure to be.
 

amazingTOO

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Oct 21, 2015
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Hope Liberal can settle all syrian refugees in Jason Kenny's Riding, and make them get canadian citizenship faster.
Hope NDP in AB will launch a investor immigration program for Refugee Condos in Calgary, there should be lots of talents in oil industry among the syrian refugees.
Actually we are screwed by former Canadian Alliance Party, like Communist Villagers Rule the Moscow, ISIS farmers rule Big cities in Arabia. First time in the power and don't know how to govern, do all the crazy things.
 

screech339

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amazingTOO said:
Hope Liberal can settle all syrian refugees in Jason Kenny's Riding, and make them get canadian citizenship faster.
Hope NDP in AB will launch a investor immigration program for Refugee Condos in Calgary, there should be lots of talents in oil industry among the syrian refugees.
Actually we are screwed by former Canadian Alliance Party, like Communist Villagers Rule the Moscow, ISIS farmers rule Big cities in Arabia. First time in the power and don't know how to govern, do all the crazy things.
Ha ha ha! Thanks for the laugh. Oh, by the way, you dropped your tin foil hat by your foot.
 

screech339

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dpenabill said:
To be clear, the media did not portray the 2011 election results to be an affront to democracy.

In the ensuing years, however, PM Harper's manner of governing was so described, not much by mainstream media but by a growing chorus of critics who were alarmed, for well-founded reasons, by the extent to which Harper closed the door to even consultation with the members of his own caucus, let alone members of the opposition parties, and even to major stakeholders. Almost all legislation, for example, including hugely important bills like Bill C-23 (dramatically revising the law governing Canadian elections), Bill C-24 (citizenship), and Bill C-51 (adding profound powers of surveillance with minimal oversight), was drafted behind closed doors, largely in secret, by a small inner circle of individuals close to Harper, and then rammed through the legislative process with minimal study or debate. Even Harper's own caucus was kept in the dark until the legislation was tabled. Even stakeholders in the government, let alone those outside government, were minimally consulted.

Anyone who spent much time watching Question Period over the last four years could easily see for herself the extent to which Harper refused to so much as even engage in the democratic process, refusing to answer even straight-forward questions of fact, key questions of importance on key issues facing the country.

In addition Harper implemented all sorts of other undemocratic policies, ranging from silencing government researchers to all but defunding the Information Commissioners office while at the same time stonewalling or outright denying scores and scores of legitimate information requests. Under his government scientists faced discipline for merely writing and performing folk songs unrelated to their employment.

We saw the impact on citizenship: under his government important Operational Bulletins governing procedure were excluded from the public view, ATI requests about basic bureaucratic practices were increasingly and drastically subject to redaction, and major changes to policy and practice were drafted in secret in the PMO and then dumped on CIC in a way that almost brought the processing of citizenship applications to a grinding halt (the 2012 implementation of OB 407, much of which is still concealed from public view; note that internal CIC memos obtained through the ATI process reveal the extent to which this was imposed from the top down with virtually no serious input from those who actually did the work in CIC, an obvious recipe for disaster, and it was, indeed, a disaster, and tens of thousands of qualified applicants are still mired in egregiously unfair delays still, years later).

In contrast, many previous majority governments in Canada were similarly elected by around 40% of the popular vote and they worked with opposition parties to govern Canada on behalf of all Canadians. (The media pundits estimate that 38.5% of the popular vote is the practical threshold for establishing a majority government.)

Justin Trudeau has promised to listen to each and every member of Parliament with respect, all 338 members, because even if they are a member outside the Liberal Party, they were nonetheless elected to represent the Canadians in their riding. And their opinion matters. Their opinion should be respected and considered.

The difference is huge. Whether Trudeau can keep this promise, or to what extent he can actually follow through with it, remains to be seen. A big clue will emerge in how Trudeau conducts himself during Question Period after Parliament is back in session.

While perhaps largely symbolic, Trudeau's appearance in the Press Galley this week, willing to openly address questions from reporters, illustrates oceanic differences in the approach to governing. I adamantly hope he keeps it up, difficult though it is sure to be.
I noticed that you addressed a few of my posts but you seemed awfully quiet to my post regarding Fred Rose losing his citizenship due to treason. I even asked what is your thought on it. If I'm not mistaken, you said or implied that there was never any case of citizenship being stripped, thus the government has no right to actually strip citizenship. I corrected you with an example with Fred Rose. If PM King can revised the law to "prevent" stripping citizenship from happening again, surely an PM can revise the law to "allow" stripping of citizenship.

Remember Fred Rose was stripped for treason for sharing information with Russia. He didnt kill anyone, unlike a terrorist who actually engages to kill and terrorize as many people. So to claim that there is no precedent in stripping citizenship is completely false. Guess what Fred was dual citizen. Like we had "two tier" citizenship all along.
 

amazingTOO

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screech339 said:
Ha ha ha! Thanks for the laugh. Oh, by the way, you dropped your tin foil hat by your foot.
Not exactly, I didn't say green party can nominate Chris Alexander for that riding, cuz tory possibly won't nominate him anywhere. will be interesting to see which minister is loved the most.
 

screech339

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rajmalhotra7 said:
You have assumed that media statements were based on % of vote share. We do not know what facts/figures media has looked at before making statements. For example, here is another outlook, based on # of seats won.

In 2011, Conservatives got 166 seats as compared to 143 seats in 2008. It is an increase of 23 seats (16.08% increase) from 2008 to 2011.

In 2015, Liberals got 184 seats as compared to 34 seats in 2008. It is an increase of 150 seats (441.17% increase) from 2011 to 2015.
Gee. Hmm. Let's discuss this

If Harper's 166 seat majority government with 39.6% vote is illegitimate, according to media pundits, then Trudeau's 184 seat majority government with less votes than Harper's at 39.4% must mean Trudeau's mandate is even more illegitimate than Harper's.

But we all know that the media won't say a peep about this logic. Thank you for illustrating my point about media ingrained bias against conservatives.
 

dpenabill

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screech339 said:
I noticed that you addressed a few of my posts but you seemed awfully quiet to my post regarding Fred Rose losing his citizenship due to treason. I even asked what is your thought on it. If I'm not mistaken, you said or implied that there was never any case of citizenship being stripped, thus the government has no right to actually strip citizenship. I corrected you with an example with Fred Rose. If PM King can revised the law to "prevent" stripping citizenship from happening again, surely an PM can revise the law to "allow" stripping of citizenship.

Remember Fred Rose was stripped for treason for sharing information with Russia. He didnt kill anyone, unlike a terrorist who actually engages to kill and terrorize as many people. So to claim that there is no precedent in stripping citizenship is completely false. Guess what Fred was dual citizen. Like we had "two tier" citizenship all along.
The above post has absolutely no relevance in this topic.

But, at the risk of responding to what looks like trolling (especially given your other posts in this and other topics), I will state:

I have indeed addressed Fred Rose in one of the other multiple topics you repeat references to and queries about the Fred Rose case.

The short answer, it warrants noting, is that not only is the Fred Rose case totally off topic here, the Fred Rose case has little or no relevance to the modern Canadian Citizenship Act (initially adopted two decades later than the Fred Rose case) generally.

I elaborate further in the topic "A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian? I don't think so." See:

dpenabill said:
The reference to Fred Rose, after all, is to a case in the early Cold War era (soon after WW II) involving an individual who was convicted of spying in Canada for the Soviets. Even for the time period, that was a one-off, isolated case, largely an anomaly. It occurred more than a half century ago, and predated the modern Canadian Citizenship Act (adopted in 1977) by two decades, and really is of no relevance to the discussions in this topic (and not remotely relevant where you have brought this up in other topics). It certainly has no roots in or relevance to the Citizenship Act, which again has governed Canadian citizenship law since 1977, and which did not contain any provisions about revoking citizenship for treason before it was amended by Bill C-24 in 2014.

Moreover, the Fred Rose case occurred years prior to the 1961 Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness, and more than two decades prior to when Canada became a signatory to that Convention. It is this Convention, and additional related international agreements and treaties which Canada is a party to, which underlies the so-called two-tier citizenship created by Section 10.4 in the Citizenship Act (as amended by Bill C-24). There was no Canadian Charter of Rights at that time. Even the Canadian "Bill of Rights" was not enacted until years later, in 1960. In short, the Fred Rose case is not relevant to any of these in any way, not even in the same ballpark.

. . .

There is also the obvious: the scope of Parliament's powers is more particularly defined given the Constitutional Act of 1982, [which was enacted] long, long after the Fred Rose case or the legislation enacted the year following that case.
 

rajmalhotra7

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screech339 said:
Gee. Hmm. Let's discuss this

If Harper's 166 seat majority government with 39.6% vote is illegitimate, according to media pundits, then Trudeau's 184 seat majority government with less votes than Harper's at 39.4% must mean Trudeau's mandate is even more illegitimate than Harper's.

But we all know that the media won't say a peep about this logic. Thank you for illustrating my point about media ingrained bias against conservatives.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Neither I care what media says about which party in whatever election and nor my intention is to compare media statements from 2 different elections. I made my comment, so that you can have another perspective with numbers. You are comparing 2 different election that were held more than 4 years apart and comparing their % vote share with media statements then and now. You want media statements to align with % vote share. However, media can make statements by looking at some other facts/numbers and do not give % vote share much weightage. You want media to look at only %vote share and comment accordingly. Governments are formed by winning maximum seats not % vote share. % of votes does not always correspond to number of seats won. A classic example is UK general elections of 2005, when Labour had 35.2% vote share and won 355 seats and on the other side, Conservative had 32.4% vote share and got 198 seats. In a very same election in 2005, %vote share difference was 2.8% however, difference in seats was 157.
 

amazingTOO

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Oct 21, 2015
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will be nice if Conservative Party of Canada, and the UK one merge together, and fight for UK election.
ps. the commonweath and EU citizens can vote in the UK as long as they have a residency in the UK. :D ;D :D
 

rajmalhotra7

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screech339 said:
Gee. Hmm. Let's discuss this

If Harper's 166 seat majority government with 39.6% vote is illegitimate, according to media pundits, then Trudeau's 184 seat majority government with less votes than Harper's at 39.4% must mean Trudeau's mandate is even more illegitimate than Harper's.

But we all know that the media won't say a peep about this logic. Thank you for illustrating my point about media ingrained bias against conservatives.
A win is a win.... and a majority win is even better... at least we wouldn't have election in a year or two. In 2011, Conservatives won majority... and this time Liberals got... Kudos to both parties in respective years..... I have never intended to state that media has or had bias against conservative. I don't care if they have or not...... and I also don't care if media is in love with liberals or not.... I only wanted to point out bias in your assessment of % vote share with media statements.....
 

Genevieve13

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Jan 20, 2015
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Old people which were born in Canada and lived long enough, when PMs were from liberals and when PMs were from conservatives, say: "With conservatives taxes are always low and there are lots jobs, with liberals taxes are always high and there are no jobs". So we will see how happy everybody will be after next few years.
 

Rayan14

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Genevieve13 said:
Old people which were born in Canada and lived long enough, when PMs were from liberals and when PMs were from conservatives, say: "With conservatives taxes are always low and there are lots jobs, with liberals taxes are always high and there are no jobs". So we will see how happy everybody will be after next few years.
Not to mention Trudeau's absolute lack of experience in the real world.
 

amazingTOO

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Oct 21, 2015
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Its better people behind him is good, we now have two govorner generals.
Its better than one dictator, dictatorship dont balance itself.