2 years in 5 years did not meet because of studying outside canada

[TESS SIE]

Hello Everyone! Just need your opinion...My daughter is in Philippines right now, as she decided to finish her study there. She became permanent resident in Canada last October 2013 and her PR card will be expire on Nov. 2018. After she landed as an immigrant last Oct. 2013, she went back to Philippines to continue her studies and she comes here in Canada every school vacations. She will be graduating on June 2018. So in this case, she will not meet the number of days required by the CIC. Me and my husband are here in Canada. My daughter is planning to come here in Canada for good, right after her graduation on June 2018. That means 5 mos. before her PR card expires. Please help me what to do by giving your opinion, suggestions or telling a related situation. Thanks...looking forward for your help

 

[zardoz]

Hello Everyone! Just need your opinion...My daughter is in Philippines right now, as she decided to finish her study there. She became permanent resident in Canada last October 2013 and her PR card will be expire on Nov. 2018. After she landed as an immigrant last Oct. 2013, she went back to Philippines to continue her studies and she comes here in Canada every school vacations. She will be graduating on June 2018. So in this case, she will not meet the number of days required by the CIC. Me and my husband are here in Canada. My daughter is planning to come here in Canada for good, right after her graduation on June 2018. That means 5 mos. before her PR card expires. Please help me what to do by giving your opinion, suggestions or telling a related situation. Thanks...looking forward for your help

She may be reported when entering Canada for failure to comply with the residency obligation requirements. If she only has "study" as an excuse for this, it's quite possible that she would lose any appeal to retain her PR status. Caveat Emptor.

 

[dpenabill]

Hello Everyone! Just need your opinion...My daughter is in Philippines right now, as she decided to finish her study there. She became permanent resident in Canada last October 2013 and her PR card will be expire on Nov. 2018. After she landed as an immigrant last Oct. 2013, she went back to Philippines to continue her studies and she comes here in Canada every school vacations. She will be graduating on June 2018. So in this case, she will not meet the number of days required by the CIC. Me and my husband are here in Canada. My daughter is planning to come here in Canada for good, right after her graduation on June 2018. That means 5 mos. before her PR card expires. Please help me what to do by giving your opinion, suggestions or telling a related situation. Thanks...looking forward for your help

There are a lot of factors which can influence how this goes. A big one is her age. How much time she spends in Canada in the meantime is really important.

As soon as she has been outside Canada for 1095 days since landing (and still within the first five years) she will be in technical breach of the PR Residency Obligation, and thus at risk any time she arrives at a Canadian PoE to enter Canada (thus that could happen before her current PR card expires).

But if she is traveling regularly back and forth to Canada, and spending significant periods of time in Canada, as if Canada is her primary home and she is only away for school, there is a good chance she will be OK . . . and depending on the frequency and duration of trips to Canada, she may not even been examined when returning to Canada for as long as she has her current PR card.

That's a bit of a gamble of course. But the most likely worst case scenario, assuming she is coming to Canada at least every year, better if more often, and spends months of the year in Canada, is that on one of her return trips to Canada after she has been outside Canada for more than 1095 days, she is issued a Report for the breach at the border. My guess is that she will get at least one pass (assuming again she is indeed coming to Canada regularly, at the very minimum for one long break each year), where she might be cautioned or admonished by the PoE officer about complying with the PR RO. Obviously, once that happens the risk goes up that she will be reported the next time.

If reported she still gets to keep her PR card and enter Canada, and can and should then appeal. As long as the appeal is pending, she keeps her PR status and gets to keep her PR card until it expires, and then she can get a one-year temporary PR card as long as the appeal is still pending. In this situation (with same assumptions as above), as long as she does indeed return to Canada to live permanently before the appeal is heard, her odds are probably good, especially with parents in Canada. But there are no guarantees. And again, how this goes will be influenced by a lot of factors: age (younger the better), frequency of trips to Canada (more is better), duration of stays in Canada (longer is better), among many other more specific to the individual factors (such as her ability to speak well for herself).

No one here can offer a reliable prediction about how this will go for her in particular. Again, once she goes past 1095 days outside Canada, she will be in breach, and at risk for losing PR status. But if she is just past the age of majority and has been attending an educational program that amounts to continuing her education as it was in progress before becoming a PR, and she has been coming to Canada say twice a year and for six or ten weeks or so at least one of those trips each year, and her primary family ties are to you here in Canada, she should have a good chance of not being reported (assuming she is back in Canada to stay several months before her PR card expires), and even if reported, a good chance of winning an appeal (assuming she is in Canada to stay while the appeal is pending). But again, no guarantees, and the longer it goes between trips to Canada, and the less time she has spent in Canada total, the poorer her odds.

Tough call. Only way to be safe is to come to Canada and stay long enough to meet the PR RO.

By the way, however, if she were to lose her PR card, or to be abroad when the PR card expires, that could make things a lot more difficult. She would have to apply for a PR Travel Document to come to Canada and it appears that IRCC is more strict about these cases in deciding whether to grant a PR TD based on H&C grounds.

 

[bonaddictus]

would it help if a Parent PR stays with the minor child outside Canada and count those days as a PR RO or is that only applicable to Canadian Citizen Parents with a minor PR child?

 

[dpenabill]

would it help if a Parent PR stays with the minor child outside Canada and count those days as a PR RO or is that only applicable to Canadian Citizen Parents with a minor PR child?

If the parent qualifies for credit toward the PR Residency Obligation while abroad (such as a PR employed by a Canadian business and temporarily assigned abroad by the employer), and the child is a dependent (as defined), the child should get the same credit as the parent.

Otherwise, probably the opposite if relying on H&C reasons to, in effect, obtain a waiver of the failure to comply with the PR RO. In the PR RO context, H&C reasons can be very much about deserving to keep PR status (H&C reasons applicable in other contexts, such as the hardship analysis, still apply, but for purposes of waiving a breach of the PR RO, the scope of H&C reasons is significantly broader and more flexible than the H&C analysis in other contexts). In particular, the more and stronger the PR's actual Canadian ties, that tends to make a stronger case for allowing the PR to keep PR status. Thus, parents settled and living in Canada is a positive factor while having a parent living abroad would tend to weigh against allowing the PR to keep status based on H&C reasons. Moreover, the unification of families factor is also somewhat in play, so the parent abroad suggests there is no compelling interest in preserving the child's PR status in Canada.

H&C cases for PRs in breach of the PR Residency Obligation are often very complex.

Sure, there are relatively simple cases, like the 19 year old who left Canada with parents and who wants to return to Canada to settle as a PR: good odds of being allowed to keep PR status despite being outside Canada for many, many years.

But the H&C argument for keeping PR status typically arises in more complex situations involving a wide range of influences in the reasons why the PR was abroad, the decisions the PR made, the extent to which the decisions made were compelled by circumstances beyond the PR's control, and the same circumstance can have a different impact for one PR than it does for another.

Amount of time in Canada, including frequency and duration of travel to Canada, and nature of ongoing ties in Canada, are among the biggest factors.

Some participants in this forum tend to discount a number of factors. I disagree with that view because the policy is specifically to consider ALL reasons . . . but the trick is in understanding how complex it is in assessing the weight given to this or that reason, going both ways, which is to recognize that many reasons can have a negative impact on the H&C assessment, even some reasons which in a different context, for a PR with a different history, that reason might be weighed as a positive factor.

(Most common example of the latter observation is a PR's decision to stay abroad longer for employment reasons related to the PR's financial circumstances; anyone who says this is not a factor is wrong. It is a factor. It will be considered. And in many if not most situations, it can be a negative factor with a little or a lot of weight. But in some circumstances, in conjunction with other factors, it can be a positive factor. How the individual factor fits into the PR's overall situation and how it relates to other reasons for being abroad, and the extent to which it indicates stronger ties abroad or is just a bridge in the difficult process of fully resettling in Canada, can push the needle one direction or the other, DEPENDING, as these things often do, on the whole picture and on how the individual parts fit together.)

I should add: there is no easy formula for predicting the outcome of many, many potentially successful H&C cases. H&C cases tend to be very tricky.

Remember, the PR RO is intentionally lenient in order to accommodate most contingencies which will compel a PR to be abroad for extended periods of time, and thus a breach of the PR RO is, in itself, the biggest factor tending to weigh against allowing the PR to retain PR status. Nonetheless, even when Harper was PM, CIC exercised a fair degree of discretion in allowing PRs to keep their status despite the technical failure to comply with the PR RO. But the fact that if there is a breach of the PR RO means a very substantial risk of losing PR status should not be underestimated, even if the PR feels he or she had very compelling reasons for not returning to live in Canada sooner.

 

[bonaddictus]

If the parent qualifies for credit toward the PR Residency Obligation while abroad (such as a PR employed by a Canadian business and temporarily assigned abroad by the employer), and the child is a dependent (as defined), the child should get the same credit as the parent.

Otherwise, probably the opposite if relying on H&C reasons to, in effect, obtain a waiver of the failure to comply with the PR RO. In the PR RO context, H&C reasons can be very much about deserving to keep PR status (H&C reasons applicable in other contexts, such as the hardship analysis, still apply, but for purposes of waiving a breach of the PR RO, the scope of H&C reasons is significantly broader and more flexible than the H&C analysis in other contexts). In particular, the more and stronger the PR's actual Canadian ties, that tends to make a stronger case for allowing the PR to keep PR status. Thus, parents settled and living in Canada is a positive factor while having a parent living abroad would tend to weigh against allowing the PR to keep status based on H&C reasons. Moreover, the unification of families factor is also somewhat in play, so the parent abroad suggests there is no compelling interest in preserving the child's PR status in Canada.

H&C cases for PRs in breach of the PR Residency Obligation are often very complex.

Sure, there are relatively simple cases, like the 19 year old who left Canada with parents and who wants to return to Canada to settle as a PR: good odds of being allowed to keep PR status despite being outside Canada for many, many years.

But the H&C argument for keeping PR status typically arises in more complex situations involving a wide range of influences in the reasons why the PR was abroad, the decisions the PR made, the extent to which the decisions made were compelled by circumstances beyond the PR's control, and the same circumstance can have a different impact for one PR than it does for another.

Amount of time in Canada, including frequency and duration of travel to Canada, and nature of ongoing ties in Canada, are among the biggest factors.

Some participants in this forum tend to discount a number of factors. I disagree with that view because the policy is specifically to consider ALL reasons . . . but the trick is in understanding how complex it is in assessing the weight given to this or that reason, going both ways, which is to recognize that many reasons can have a negative impact on the H&C assessment, even some reasons which in a different context, for a PR with a different history, that reason might be weighed as a positive factor.

(Most common example of the latter observation is a PR's decision to stay abroad longer for employment reasons related to the PR's financial circumstances; anyone who says this is not a factor is wrong. It is a factor. It will be considered. And in many if not most situations, it can be a negative factor with a little or a lot of weight. But in some circumstances, in conjunction with other factors, it can be a positive factor. How the individual factor fits into the PR's overall situation and how it relates to other reasons for being abroad, and the extent to which it indicates stronger ties abroad or is just a bridge in the difficult process of fully resettling in Canada, can push the needle one direction or the other, DEPENDING, as these things often do, on the whole picture and on how the individual parts fit together.)

I should add: there is no easy formula for predicting the outcome of many, many potentially successful H&C cases. H&C cases tend to be very tricky.

Remember, the PR RO is intentionally lenient in order to accommodate most contingencies which will compel a PR to be abroad for extended periods of time, and thus a breach of the PR RO is, in itself, the biggest factor tending to weigh against allowing the PR to retain PR status. Nonetheless, even when Harper was PM, CIC exercised a fair degree of discretion in allowing PRs to keep their status despite the technical failure to comply with the PR RO. But the fact that if there is a breach of the PR RO means a very substantial risk of losing PR status should not be underestimated, even if the PR feels he or she had very compelling reasons for not returning to live in Canada sooner.

Thank you for the insight.

I am sorry threadstarter for deviating from the topic, but what if a Citizen wife moved with her PR spouse to his home country due to studies/professional training that normally takes years. Will the days stayed in that country will be credited to PR Spouse's PR RO?

 

[Rigly68]

Thank you for the insight.

I am sorry threadstarter for deviating from the topic, but what if a Citizen wife moved with her PR spouse to his home country due to studies/professional training that normally takes years. Will the days stayed in that country will be credited to PR Spouse's PR RO?

Yes it will count towards spouses RO for PR status. But not towards eligibility for citizenship.

 

[Leon]

Thank you for the insight.

I am sorry threadstarter for deviating from the topic, but what if a Citizen wife moved with her PR spouse to his home country due to studies/professional training that normally takes years. Will the days stayed in that country will be credited to PR Spouse's PR RO?

The reason for their move is not important, be it studies or something else. As long a PR is living with a Canadian citizen spouse outside Canada, their days spent living with their spouse count as days in Canada towards the PR residency requirement (not towards the requirements for citizenship). Same for minor PR children living with a Canadian citizen parent.

Same for a PR who is employed by a Canadian employer and transferred to a full time position outside Canada. Same with that PR's spouse and minor children who are accompanying.