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Refugee status cessation and PRs applying for citizenship

Kambs16

Star Member
Nov 29, 2016
76
14
@scylla I understand that if I don't qualify for PRRA, then I can appeal a removal order at the FC and ask for stay on removal till I get the result.? Also what about inadmissibility hearing. I did get an email once from cbsa about an ID hearing after the initial failed IRB hearing but perhaps when they saw i has appealed they put it on hold.
I guess appealing the refused pr card is pointless because the refusal I tied to the cessation matter. Perhaps I could explore this.
 

scylla

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@scylla I understand that if I don't qualify for PRRA, then I can appeal a removal order at the FC and ask for stay on removal till I get the result.? Also what about inadmissibility hearing. I did get an email once from cbsa about an ID hearing after the initial failed IRB hearing but perhaps when they saw i has appealed they put it on hold.
I guess appealing the refused pr card is pointless because the refusal I tied to the cessation matter. Perhaps I could explore this.
I believe @dpenabill already answered your question regarding the PR card appeal. I don't see what there is to appeal.

The rest of your questions are beyond my capabilities and are best addressed by your lawyer.
 

Kambs16

Star Member
Nov 29, 2016
76
14
Aside from my personal predicament, let me also contribute my words of advice to anyone coming to this forum to inquire about cessation.
I'll reiterate 1000 times don't travel to your home country as a refugee. If you have already, dont apply for citizenship until it is safe enough..that is to say the preceding 5 yrs show now record of travel home or use of a home passport. If you have already done that, then please once your application is I'm progress let it run it's course. I feel personally I could have triggered a cessation application by my endless inquiries into my citizenship application and finally the mandamus was the final hit. It's okay to remain a pr for years. You dont lose much compared to what you lose when you lose your pr status. I was Lucky to have an understanding lawyer. It was expensive but I had a good payment plan and he was very supportive too in many other ways. You will need to invest in that because it can be daunting but you get stronger and more knowledgeable with time. It's a real experience.
Another thing, be knowledgeable, look for information on your case.,read cases.,understand fully the laws surrounding yr case. Even though you have a lawyer, there are many times they are busy with other stuff and clients. Plus lawyers dont answer all questions. They tend to just provide legal information and not be presumptious. Also they value their knowledge a lot so they don't discuss much outside of the matter at hand to give you a broader perspective. Their job is just to prepare a case for you and represent you and coach you a bit where they feel it might favor your case so its a win win for both parties. But like everything else they are never perfect too
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
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Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
Aside from my personal predicament, let me also contribute my words of advice to anyone coming to this forum to inquire about cessation.
I'll reiterate 1000 times don't travel to your home country as a refugee. If you have already, dont apply for citizenship until it is safe enough..that is to say the preceding 5 yrs show now record of travel home or use of a home passport. If you have already done that, then please once your application is I'm progress let it run it's course. I feel personally I could have triggered a cessation application by my endless inquiries into my citizenship application and finally the mandamus was the final hit. It's okay to remain a pr for years. You dont lose much compared to what you lose when you lose your pr status. I was Lucky to have an understanding lawyer. It was expensive but I had a good payment plan and he was very supportive too in many other ways. You will need to invest in that because it can be daunting but you get stronger and more knowledgeable with time. It's a real experience.
Another thing, be knowledgeable, look for information on your case.,read cases.,understand fully the laws surrounding yr case. Even though you have a lawyer, there are many times they are busy with other stuff and clients. Plus lawyers dont answer all questions. They tend to just provide legal information and not be presumptious. Also they value their knowledge a lot so they don't discuss much outside of the matter at hand to give you a broader perspective. Their job is just to prepare a case for you and represent you and coach you a bit where they feel it might favor your case so its a win win for both parties. But like everything else they are never perfect too
Just to be clear, even if your travel record for the previous five years is "clean", it's still not safe. The only safe option is to avoid all travel to the home country until a person has citizenship.

Good luck and let us know how it goes for you.
 

Kambs16

Star Member
Nov 29, 2016
76
14
@scylla Regarding nothing to appeal on pr card refusal, I believe one can appeal a pr card refusal. I know certainly for Residence obligations violation you can. My case is different obviously but I believe I can still appeal based on the fact like dpenabill mentioned, contesting the legalities around losing status. PR loss of status is never final until you have exhausted all legal avenues and have to be removed. Loss of PR status is merely a current state. If you appeal a removal order or have a positive PRRA /PRRA appeal , I believe your PR is reinstated, and with a citizenship application still in progress, it can then be finalised. The only problem is leaving the country and being denied entry based on your current situation, and not having the chance to explore all those legal avenues anymore.
 

Kambs16

Star Member
Nov 29, 2016
76
14
Just to be clear, even if your travel record for the previous five years is "clean", it's still not safe. The only safe option is to avoid all travel to the home country until a person has citizenship.

Good luck and let us know how it goes for you.
If your travel record is clean for the last 5 years you are safe unless there was a CBSA record somewhere that you travelled home. Citizenship application or pr card application only looks into the last 5 years preceding your application. But of course by all means avoid home country travel nonetheless
 

scylla

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AOR Received.
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28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
@scylla Regarding nothing to appeal on pr card refusal, I believe one can appeal a pr card refusal. I know certainly for Residence obligations violation you can. My case is different obviously but I believe I can still appeal based on the fact like dpenabill mentioned, contesting the legalities around losing status. PR loss of status is never final until you have exhausted all legal avenues and have to be removed. Loss of PR status is merely a current state. If you appeal a removal order or have a positive PRRA /PRRA appeal , I believe your PR is reinstated, and with a citizenship application still in progress, it can then be finalised. The only problem is leaving the country and being denied entry based on your current situation, and not having the chance to explore all those legal avenues anymore.
I'm not saying you can't appeal a PR card refusal. There are certainly many circumstances where that is possible. I'm saying that I don't believe it's possible in your specific situation.

Since the cessation case against you has been successful, that results in the loss of PR status.

I honestly have nothing further to contribute at this point. You really really need to be speaking with your lawyer. This situation is far too complex for any of us here. I do understand that your lawyer isn't around to answer one off questions on a regular basis. However you have a number of questions that you want answered and clarifications on what is or is not possible as a next step. You should really get a meeting together with your lawyer to discuss all of these questions in one go and to get an understanding from a legal professional on what your options are. I feel like you are trying to argue options with us here when several of us have told you multiple times that you are in lawyer territory. Please please talk to your lawyer.
 

Kambs16

Star Member
Nov 29, 2016
76
14
I'm not saying you can't appeal a PR card refusal. There are certainly many circumstances where that is possible. I'm saying that I don't believe it's possible in your specific situation.

Since the cessation case against you has been successful, that results in the loss of PR status.

I honestly have nothing further to contribute at this point. You really really need to be speaking with your lawyer. This situation is far too complex for any of us here. I do understand that your lawyer isn't around to answer one off questions on a regular basis. However you have a number of questions that you want answered and clarifications on what is or is not possible as a next step. You should really get a meeting together with your lawyer to discuss all of these questions in one go and to get an understanding from a legal professional on what your options are. I feel like you are trying to argue options with us here when several of us have told you multiple times that you are in lawyer territory. Please please talk to your lawyer.
I'm by no means trying to argue anything with anyone. That is not of benefit to me in the least. I was of the view that it was just a discussion. What then is the point of this forum. I understand if you say it's beyond you. However my response was not directly targeted at you. I was merely putting it out there for any body with the knowledge or experience. There could even be a lawyer or lawyers on this forum. Who knows. I don't think you speak for everyone.
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
97,461
23,236
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
I'm by no means trying to argue anything with anyone. That is not of benefit to me in the least. I was of the view that it was just a discussion. What then is the point of this forum. I understand if you say it's beyond you. However my response was not directly targeted at you. I was merely putting it out there for any body with the knowledge or experience. There could even be a lawyer or lawyers on this forum. Who knows. I don't think you speak for everyone.
Yes, it is for discussions. You are of course free to post. Good luck again.
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
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If your travel record is clean for the last 5 years you are safe unless there was a CBSA record somewhere that you travelled home. Citizenship application or pr card application only looks into the last 5 years preceding your application. But of course by all means avoid home country travel nonetheless
While it is true that they formally only look at the last five years for physical presence, there's nothing to prevent IRCC from looking at other records they may have, and indeed (esp) the security checks do not have to be limited to five years at all.

For example - some of the prohibitions (that may not have been looked at using more up-to-date procedures - potential human rights abuses, war crimes, all that stuff) for some will absolutely involve looking further back including to before the protected person came to Canada. I don't mean of course that travel to home country before one became a protected person would matter - just illustrating that they can and will dig further back if they're required to, and in doing so, may come across travel records or other that are past the last five years. (And of course it's highly likely that many PPs came originally from places where things that lead to prohibitions occurred).

So no - do not rely upon what's gone on in the last five years. I'd go further, although @dpenabill has the history of cases where only the passport was renewed/applied/used for other purposes or travel only to third countries, the word should be passed to all PRs/PPs that they really should avoid ANY actions with/with respect to the passports of the country they left. It's arguably a technicality, but a very unpleasant technicality (should it come up), and if that leads IRCC to inquire/check into potential travel to home country, may lead to further delays. And if they can't for whatever reason avoid ANY such actions, minimize them and NOT travel to that country of origin.

I'd suggest there's some evidence IRCC may be looking at - for example - the travel history of PR/PPs that travelled to neighbouring countries - presumably on suspicion that in many parts of the world, borders are more fluid and that travel could indicate the real destination was country of origin. That may not be a correct inference, but worrisome if true, and more evidence: as little as possible and preferably none, until one becomes a citizen.
 
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canuck78

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Jun 18, 2017
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Think in general people should anticipate that Canada’s days of relatively lax enforcement and screening of many immigration related issues are over for now for a variety of reasons. There will certainly be people who will still get away with misrepresenting themselves, committing fraud or not following immigration rules/laws but there will be an attempt to at least try to limit issues. In most of the world we are seeing a shift in immigration policies mainly due to economic and political issues.
 

Canadian_rainbow

Hero Member
Aug 30, 2022
885
369
This is NOT funny. Not at all.

If the RPD does not believe a statement of fact presented in the case (such as what the PR-refugee actually knows) and that is a factor in its decision, procedural fairness requires the PR-refugee be informed of this and given an opportunity to address it. Let's be clear, the law is clear (but not clearly applied), what a PR-refugee should know is NOT the issue, rather what they actually know is what matters and is a key factual consideration. (Also see previous post.)

The discussion of this issue in Camayo explicitly addresses this. The court's summary of the case states:
The respondent testified that she was not aware that using her Colombian passport to travel to Colombia and elsewhere could have consequences for her immigration status in Canada. The RPD rejected this claim, not because the respondent was not credible, but because it found that ignorance of the law was not a valid argument. The RPD should have considered not what the respondent should have known but rather whether she did subjectively intend by her actions to depend on the protection of Colombia. In order for it to make a reasonable decision, the RPD was required to take account of the state of the respondent’s actual knowledge and intent before concluding that she had intended to reavail herself of Colombia’s protection.

In Al Balushi v. Canada, 2025 FC 567 (CanLII), https://canlii.ca/t/kb9kc . . . as for her not knowing the consequences, it is perhaps too difficult to resist a snarky this-is-funny quip, in this particular case, since when this individual became a PR-refugee of Canada and initially obtained an Omani passport, and traveled to Oman, that had NO CONSEQUENCES for her status. That was BEFORE the Harper government amended the law by adding the draconian Section 46(1)(c.1) provision that would terminate status. She obviously did not know because she could not have known because it simply was not the case, at the time, that using an Omani passport and traveling to Oman could, let alone would jeopardize her Canadian PR status.

What about her later travel to Oman? After the change in law she traveled to Oman for three days. Just three days. That was in 2015. That was around the time I started this topic because not only were forum participants recommending PR-refugees get a home country passport to submit when they applied for citizenship, the CIC (before name change to IRCC) help line (call centre) was also advising clients to do that, even though the law had changed in December 2012 pursuant to which just getting a home country passport created a presumption of reavailment for which the potential consequences was loss of PR status.

(Refugee related issues were totally outside the sphere of what I followed at the time, but when I became aware of the blatant injustice of the government advising PR-refugees to get a passport and then using the fact they did against them, to strip them of being able to live in a country that had purportedly given them status to live PERMANENTLY, I started this topic to help spread the word.)

But you think it is funny she did not know what government immigration agents engaged in giving information to clients did not know (assuming they were not being deliberately giving false information to entrap refugees). So, yeah, it is indeed too difficult to resist repeating a snarky this-is-funny quip in response.

Make no mistake, the case for cessation against this individual was mostly based on:
-- obtaining a passport and travel to Oman when a PR-refugee could do that without any consequences to their status (that is, prior to December 2012)​
-- returning to Oman in 2015 for three days, to renew her passport, at a time when government agents were advising PR-refugees to get a passport to submit with an application for citizenship​
-- using her passports, last one obtained in 2015, to travel to other countries​

As for the use of a passport to travel to third countries constituting reavailment of home country protection, there are way more people who do not know or understand that rather technical formality, and this has indeed been one of the things I have struggled to persuade many who find it unbelievable, so many believing it cannot be true that traveling to Cuba using an Omani passport means someone settled in Canada permanently, who has Permanent Resident status in Canada, is availing themselves of protection by the nation of Oman. That this is a technicality few understand is so widely and well recognized that in most cessation cases, in the view of most FC justices (judges like Justice Heneghan excepted), even though the use of the passport for travel to third countries is considered an act of reavailment, as a more or less technical fact, this generally carries little weight in regards to the individual's intention, it being recognized that people generally do not intend to do something they do not know or understand they are doing . . . even though they do the act.
(Analogy: an actor on a film set pulling the trigger on a gun, thinking it is shooting blanks, but if somehow there is a live round in the gun, as Alec Baldwin experienced, someone could be shot and killed . . . the act of shooting is a fact, but the actor who did this act did not intend to shoot someone. Similarly, using a passport is an act that legally constitutes availment of that country's protection, but most people use their passport without thinking of that, without knowing that, without using it with the intent to avail that country's protection).​
Anyways. You did refugee claim. You are a protected person/convention refugee. Use refugee travel document for your travels. Forget about your home country and their passport at least you get your Canadian citizenship. That’s very simple. If you are going through this process it’s not possible that you are not aware of the consequences of using your home country passport and visiting home country.