What is the chance of being denied a PRTD.

[jakklondon]

I should have been more specific, I meant if someone wants to go the mandamus route with a lawyer. I was responding to the OP's posting regarding wanting a "warning letter" for $200 to $400 from a lawyer.

Based on the posts I've seen here over the years, mandamus seems to be in the $2,000 to $3,000 range (i.e. doing it with a laywer).

Agreed this is a good investment depending on what someone's priorities are.

Ultimately the OP's call. Or really the OP's daughter's call based on her priorities.

Agreed on all points.

 

[dpenabill]

What you need at the Port-of-Entry, to "enter Canada," is not nearly that strict.

Where is it said?
In other words, where is the guarantee at the LEGISLATIVE level (namely, the law) which states
"Permanent resident of Canada, whose application is considered " in process "( and he is a PR) - is GUARANTEED to receive a PRTD document from the Canadian Embassy to enter Canada."
And if the case is considered for 3 years..5 years?
And such delays are very common.
But there is no such resolution anywhere.
Where is the justice?

As I noted, I would make any further observations about this in a thread where it is not off-topic, not disruptive. So I am quoting the above post and responding here to avoid disrupting the timeline for processing topic.

There is no guarantee in the law or the regulations that a PR with a PR card application in process is "GUARANTEED to receive a PRTD document from the Canadian Embassy to enter Canada."

On the contrary, the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, in Section 31(2)(b), states that "a person who is outside Canada and who does not present a status document indicating permanent resident status is presumed not to have permanent resident status."

See Section 31 IRPA here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/page-5.html#docCont

This presumption is subject to "unless an officer determines otherwise . . . " Which means the presumption that a PR outside Canada without a valid PR card does NOT have valid PR status is rebuttable.

Which is why I have not been among those casually suggesting going abroad relying on getting a PR Travel Document in this situation.

As I cautioned back in October:

HOWEVER, if there are admissibility issues at stake in the PR card application, PR RO or otherwise, or other issues regarding the PR's status, those will be obvious in the PR's GCMS records and will be taken into consideration by the visa office abroad when it processes the PR TD application.

For a PR with no inadmissibility or status issues, clearly in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation, there is very low risk of a problem getting a PR TD.

There are indications that is NOT your daughter's situation, but rather that there is indeed a significant RISK (not for sure, but a risk) that IRCC sees a problem with her PR status. And when a visa office opens a PR TD application, they will indeed see that, and that will indeed have influence in what the visa office decides.

If your daughter was quite certain the only issue with her PRC application was RO compliance, and the fact she was NOT Eligible for a new PR card when the application was made, the risks involved in going abroad and relying on a PR TD to return to Canada would be fairly low. The timeline perhaps being the biggest drawback.

But I went to some pains back in October to illuminate cause for concern beyond RO compliance. As I have repeatedly noted, sure, it is possible this application is bogged down due to oversight, error, or neglect. BUT it is not only possible but appears likely enough there is a status-related problem, that there is a real risk of that, of a substantive issue in her case, it could be risky to go abroad and apply for a PR TD.

BUT EITHER WAY . . . the best approach is to see a lawyer. Or wait, staying in Canada in the meantime. Going abroad, even just to do a flagpole at a land border crossing with the U.S., might force more definitive action on her case, but that might not be the outcome she desires.

Which brings this to . . .

"But there is no such resolution anywhere.​

Where is the justice?"​

Canada is a rule of law country, very much so, among the top tier of countries which guarantee its citizens and residents what is called "due process" in some jurisdictions, and what is referred to as "procedural fairness" in Canadian law. This is not a magical guarantee however. Rather, government is structured to provide mechanisms to enforce the right of procedural fairness. For your daughter, it appears the path to "justice" requires employing a lawyer . . . which, as I have previously suggested, is first and foremost to help your daughter figure out what her status is, what issues or problems IRCC might have, to get the information needed to pursue the remedies the law provides, which hopefully is no more than clarifying some information for IRCC, but which might require adjudication, which requires a lawyer (people can litigate pro se, but that tends to be akin to doing surgery on oneself).

Or she can wait. Or she can take her chances at the border. And you can rail about how unfair IRCC is in the meantime. But the more prudent course now would be to see a lawyer and get help figuring out what is happening and what can be done to fix it.

 

[canuck78]

Then let others thrive in Canada. Daughter lives alone. Works alone.
Let others pay the last money.

I even read that a lot of people got an updated permanent resident card AFTER they got citizenship.
One can only imagine what kind of bureaucracy there is in Canada.

Would also suggest your daughter be the one to correspond with IRCC, MP, etc. You shouldn’t be getting any information on her file.

 

[OmarSarfraz]

I have completed 2 years+ in Canada out of first 5 years and want to leave for a family emergency. However, my PR has gone for renewal (which seems to take 6 months). In case, I leave Canada is there a chance of getting the PRTD denied?

 

[steaky]

I have completed 2 years+ in Canada out of first 5 years and want to leave for a family emergency. However, my PR has gone for renewal (which seems to take 6 months). In case, I leave Canada is there a chance of getting the PRTD denied?

If you worry being denied, couldn't you return via the US land border?

 

[OmarSarfraz]

If you worry being denied, couldn't you return via the US land border?

I dont have US visa.

 

[Idrissrafd]

IRCC goal is to ensure that people meet their RO when people apply to renew their PR card. It is actually quite lucky that the process has been delayed because there is a stronger argument that your daughter has become established in Canada although that doesn’t 100% guarantee approval. Too late now bu5 if you are no5 reported at the border when not meeting your RO you shouldn’t apply to renew your PR card until you are back in compliance with your RO. Has she ordered her GCMS notes? As previously noted her file was likely sent to secondary review because she didn’t meet her RO and will likely need to pick-up her card in person even if approved. How many days had she spent in Canada during a 5 year period when she applied for the PR card renewal?

I’m so so confused. How is it possible to renew a card that has a validity of 5 years…
5 years is more than enough to be a Canadian Citizen. I’m so lost, unless people leave Canada for 2 years wth how is it possible to leave Canada for 2 years while your status is supposed to be “permanently living in Canada”.
yes, I can understand that we’ve some rare cases, but that’s extremely rare.
A PR card normally should not be renewed because technically we’ve the possibility to be citizen way before.

 

[scylla]

I’m so so confused. How is it possible to renew a card that has a validity of 5 years…
5 years is more than enough to be a Canadian Citizen. I’m so lost, unless people leave Canada for 2 years wth how is it possible to leave Canada for 2 years while your status is supposed to be “permanently living in Canada”.
yes, I can understand that we’ve some rare cases, but that’s extremely rare.
A PR card normally should not be renewed because technically we’ve the possibility to be citizen way before.

People renew PR cards all of the time. I'm not sure what's confusing about this. These are not extremely rare cases. People renewing their PR cards is extremely common, as a matter of fact.

Not everyone lives in Canada long enough right away as a PR to qualify for citizenship.

There is no rule that says PR cards should not be renewed. Nothing wrong with doing this.

 

[Idrissrafd]

People renew PR cards all of the time. I'm not sure what's confusing about this. These are not extremely rare cases. People renewing their PR cards is extremely common, as a matter of fact.

Not everyone lives in Canada long enough right away as a PR to qualify for citizenship.

There is no rule that says PR cards should not be renewed. Nothing wrong with doing this.

I’ll be more precise. When you get your PR, you get a PR card for 5 years, right ?

You can apply for citizenship if you’ve lived in Canada for 3 years or more. Right ?

Any normal human being (except few cases) who has a PR card will stay approximately 9 months minimum in Canada per year (who’s taking more than 3 months of holidays ?!!).

So even with 9 months per year in Canada, you can apply for your citizenship in approximately 4 years.

9 months is nothing for someone who is planning to live permanently in Canada. That allows him 3 months per year abroad!!!

So explain me how is it possible to renew your card, unless you’re a businessman always travelling or someone who’s taking care of his family abroad (emergency and rare cases) ?

 

[scylla]

I’ll be more precise. When you get your PR, you get a PR card for 5 years, right ?

You can apply for citizenship if you’ve lived in Canada for 3 years or more. Right ?

Any normal human being (except few cases) who has a PR card will stay approximately 9 months minimum in Canada per year (who’s taking more than 3 months of holidays ?!!).

So even with 9 months per year in Canada, you can apply for your citizenship in approximately 4 years.

9 months is nothing for someone who is planning to live permanently in Canada. That allows him 3 months per year abroad!!!

So explain me how is it possible to renew your card, unless you’re a businessman always travelling or someone who’s taking care of his family abroad (emergency and rare cases) ?

It's not just a few cases and they aren't exceptions.

I would recommend you spend some time reading through this section of the forum.

You'll find there are many many different scenarios that can cause a person to not spend enough time in Canada within the first five years to qualify for citizenship.

Some people also chose never to get citizenship and remain PRs.

I don't understand your question about regarding how it is possible to renew your PR card. Anyone can renew their PR card for another five years provided they meet the residency and have lived in Canada for 2 out of the last 5 years. A person can renew their PR card as many times as they want without getting citizenship. There is no limit.

 

[Idrissrafd]

You'll find there are many many different scenarios that can cause a person to not spend enough time in Canada within the first five years to qualify for citizenship.

For what I've read, too many people are not serious about their status. As soon as they get their PR, they became so "lazy". Legally, they can do whatever they want, but then they should assume their responsibilities.

Last time, one guy got his PR, but decided to stay in his country because of his new position. Gov of Canada should not be that lenient with these people, it's not a "Club Med", they're taking someone's place (quota), just because Mister wants to stay in his country with his new position. Either you decide to move on in your "new country" or you stay in your country. People from Tunisia and Morocco are working so hard so they can have a better life here and contribute to the economy of Canada...while you've some people chilling with their PR abroad.

When I applied for my PR, I left my country while I had one of the best situation ever. The reason is, I applied for the PR because I was planning to come here to live permanently (yes, I can get some holidays, here and there, but not for many many many months outside Canada).

Emergencies and cases of force majeure are something else. Canada should reduce the time drastically, unfortunately some are abusing of this leniency.

 

[armoured]

Among other reasons, many are from countries that don't allow dual citizenship and don't wish to lose their other citizenship.

 

[Aleks30]

Every story has an end.
Considering COVID19, Afghanistan, Ukraine - my daughter could have waited renew Prcard another 10 years.
And no one would ever open her case.
Even despite the fact that there was a letter of recommendation from the deputy and from her place of work.
3 years of waiting. No one was going to consider her case.
Thanks to this forum for information..
It's good that there is such a law. =WRIT of MANDAMUS!
After the application of the lawyer to the Federal Court and the rationale for filing under this law - my daughter's case was approved in less than a month.!
PRcard on the way to my daughter!

I will add that the matter was complicated by the fact that I live in a different country altogether.
The lawyer lives on one side of Canada - and the daughter on the other side of Canada.
Nobody has ever seen anyone.
Surprisingly - but everything was done quickly and correctly.
The application was filed with the Federal Court.
My daughter vs Minister of Immigration and IRCC.
Less than a month later, the case was opened, my daughter's phone rang, they talked to her, and the decision was made in one day.
Good luck to all.

.

 

[armoured]

It's good that there is such a law. =WRIT of MANDAMUS!
After the application of the lawyer to the Federal Court and the rationale for filing under this law - my daughter's case was approved in less than a month.!
PRcard on the way to my daughter!

First, sincere, sincere congratulations to your daughter and to your family. Very glad to hear you got this worked out. Hopefully she can apply for citizenship soon and basically never have to go through this again.

Now I get to tease you by quoting a previous post of yours (that I happened to read recently just randomly):

The job of a lawyer is to make some kind of request, or to defend or challenge some kind of decision.
There is no solution. So why do I need a lawyer?
The lawyers told me - in this situation, NOBODY can force IRCC to do something.

It's good news to know that yes, sometimes things can be done to (if not force) at least encourage IRCC to open the file up and finish it.

One question: could you share with others how much it cost, roughly? And for my interest, confirm - I presume from your description that the lawyer wrote a warning letter (of intent to file) and then also actually opened the federal court filing? (If you know, that is.)

Very glad she did not have to go further i.e. to the actual court part as that gets more expensive.

 

[Aleks30]

Yes. In the near future, the daughter will apply for citizenship. She is a loner - and everything can be done today via the Internet.
Payments are made in steps.
First payment - the lawyer does some of the work. We are waiting for the result of 30-40 days.
If there is no result, the second payment is made - the next action of the lawyer. Waiting for the result.
It cost me less than 2000usd. Only once.The lawyer did not rush me to pay further. He patiently waited for the result.
And in less than a month, my daughter got a call.

We wrote to IRCC a million threats that we would go to court, and no one even responded (I think we've been blacklisted .
Need to understand that all your letters are read in the support service.They don't decide anything. They just throw out your threats.
As a rule, simple threats - warnings from a lawyer to IRCC, do not bring results. That's what the lawyer told me.
And I got a photocopy from the lawyer - confirmation from the federal court that the file was accepted by the court.
So
The lawyer files a lawsuit in federal court.
The federal court immediately notifies to minister of immigration and his department - IRCC.
The federal court is waiting response actions from IRCC.
At the same time, letters are sent by the lawyer to certain people in the Ministry of Justice with a proposal to intervene.
Also (depending on the qualifications of your lawyer) there is a meeting with an IRCC lawyer.
It is explained to him that there is no point in continuing the case and wait considered in court.
It will cost a lot of nerves, money, time. And still a positive decision will be issued.
Also, given the heavy workload of the Canadian courts, why even more burden them with a case that, in any case, will be resolved positively after 3 years of waiting, living in the country?

I note that it all depends on the desire and courage, and the capabilities (as well as the necessary business connections) of your lawyer.