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PR card In person pick up

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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Note: a significant part of my previous post was intended to alert the participants I referenced, and the others who are similarly affected, including the OP, to the possibility that the fact they were scheduled for a PRC in-person pick-up may (not always, but sometimes) signal that IRCC still has some questions, some concerns, despite the decision-made and issuance of a new PRC. Those who are, as @canuck78 referenced, well settled in Canada and in RO compliance, generally should have NO reason to worry about this, and any counter-interview should be perfunctory, no big deal.

I overall agree with your points above.

BUT: since one of the potential reasons a PR card is being held for pick-up can be concerns about whether the PR is outside Canada, that makes the prospect of applying for a PRTD rather more fraught with risk. And the potential of substantial delays in the PRTD issuance or even a refusal a LOT more substantive a concern than just an inconvenience.

Unfortunately there's little to no ability to assess from outside what the issue is, including for the applicant.

Which seems more than a little unfair for those who - for example - might well believe that they are in full compliance and whatever reasons IRCC has are erroneous, but assess that they cannot risk or afford a lengthy PRTD delay or dispute. And this an unfairness that really does seem to be directly caused by the long delays, even if the numbers aren't large.
It is not always easy to separate explanation versus justification. In a sense, an explanation can be seen to be more or less justification, the answer "why" implicitly suggesting the reason is valid.

This is particularly true in regards to IRCC priorities, which typically are not articulated let alone clearly stated, and may not be an overt element in policies or practices.

I doubt, for example, the distinction I made in regards to necessity versus convenience can be found in any IRCC sources or any formal adjudication of PR obligations or PR rights and privileges, even if one is reading between the lines.

Which brings this back to the "assumption" referenced by @canuck78, which is an important one, and *explaining* (which always comes with the caveat "as best we can") its significance. The explanation I offered (and I probably should have referenced the other forum participants who are affected, those posting in this topic alone, among others in other topics, who are running into this issue and dealing with the long wait to be scheduled for an in-person PRC pick-up) was in no way intended to express any justification, implied or otherwise, but rather to illuminate the underlying scheme of things thereby illustrating the extent to which the options are indeed limited.

That is, unfortunately for those affected, the nature and extent of inconvenience imposed on PRs due to this delay in actually delivering a new status card, as best we can discern, is of relatively low priority for IRCC.

As usual, the overriding objective of my observations regarding this is to provide information those affected can use in assessing their own situation and making personal decisions. Here, in particular, there is no promise that IRCC will be scheduling the in-person PRC pick-up any time soon for those selected for in-person PRC pick-up.

This, in turn, brings this to the type of situation you mention, a PR apprehending elevated difficulty obtaining a PR TD or other reason to anticipate a level of inconvenience that makes the delay excessively burdensome and, as most of those affected are complaining, unfair. And in regards to this, I absolutely concur that the failure of IRCC to effectively implement ways to carry out its statutory duties in the wake of the global pandemic, to do what the law mandates, has been more than disappointing, and definitely has resulted in excessive detriment to many, unfairly, and in more than a few instances resulting in overt injustice. It is indeed a problem. There is indeed much unfairness.

Remedies, however, are not so easily identified. And that looms especially large in regards to this matter. Which is why I brought up the distinction in the Charter between the protected travel rights of Canadian citizens versus the explicit exclusion of protection of international travel rights for PRs. Rarely referenced in any of the sources we generally turn to for information about IRCC policies, practices, and actual application of the law and rules, but its import and influence should not be underestimated. While not stated as such, it is what underlies a significant part of the law and rules governing PRs, with the Residency Obligation itself looming very large, and especially in regards to certain provisions like the presumption that a PR abroad without a valid PR card does not have valid PR status.

As we have discussed in another topic, among the *inconvenient* effects from these delays in issuing and delivering new PRCs, in some provinces this poses a major hurdle to obtaining the health care coverage the PR is entitled to have. And other than waiting, the most likely recourse or remedy, to the extent one is available, will be at the provincial level challenging the provincial authority to deny coverage.


And then there is a kind of Catch-22 lurking in the potentially Outside-Canada aspect:

Frankly, this is where things are really murky given the global pandemic, travel limitations including some outright travel restrictions, IRCC's lack of transparency about why an in-person pick-up is required, and IRCC's failure to adequately adapt to the current situation despite it now approaching two years of NOT-NORMAL procedures. For the PR who is actually outside Canada, that is one thing. But to hold up delivering the PRC to a PR who is actually IN Canada because the PR might not be in Canada, rather than engage in processing which will otherwise verify the PR's location, as in or outside Canada, should be readily seen as a denial of fair procedure. The caveat: we really do not know the reasons underlying why in-person pick-up is required for a particular PR. As much as this appeared to be a factor in NORMAL times, it is not certain this is a factor currently, in the current dealing-with-a-global-pandemic situation, let alone any of those affected and posting here.


All of which is the long way around to acknowledging the validity of the concerns you express. Bureaucratic delay is a problem in the best of times. When things are askew norms, and especially so when it is on the scale we have been experiencing for a year and a half now, the problems tend to be worse, and more than a few will undoubtedly bear the brunt of the more unfair, indeed sometimes outright unjust consequences.
 
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armoured

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Feb 1, 2015
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Which brings this back to the "assumption" referenced by @canuck78, which is an important one, and *explaining* (which always comes with the caveat "as best we can") its significance. The explanation I offered (and I probably should have referenced the other forum participants who are affected, those posting in this topic alone, among others in other topics, who are running into this issue and dealing with the long wait to be scheduled for an in-person PRC pick-up) was in no way intended to express any justification, implied or otherwise, but rather to illuminate the underlying scheme of things thereby illustrating the extent to which the options are indeed limited.

...
This, in turn, brings this to the type of situation you mention, a PR apprehending elevated difficulty obtaining a PR TD or other reason to anticipate a level of inconvenience that makes the delay excessively burdensome and, as most of those affected are complaining, unfair. And in regards to this, I absolutely concur that the failure of IRCC to effectively implement ways to carry out its statutory duties in the wake of the global pandemic, to do what the law mandates, has been more than disappointing, and definitely has resulted in excessive detriment to many, unfairly, and in more than a few instances resulting in overt injustice. It is indeed a problem. There is indeed much unfairness.

Remedies, however, are not so easily identified.
I had no intention of implying that you thought it was just an inconvenience - and my mistake if that seemed to be implied.

I don't think it should surprise anyone that IRCC does (in practice) prioritize based on perceived seriousness of the issue, and there are lots of other issues at present. That's understandable. We also expect them to occasionally regroup and catch up.

For this particular issue - 'remedies' are hard, apart from the simple adage that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and you can embarrass the government into paying attention (not easy, but possible). I'm not enough of a lawyer to speak to how the facts fit the tools available, but I'd be awfully tempted to speak to a lawyer about a writ of mandamus if I were in this situation.

it may be a case of everything looking like a nail when all you have is a hammer; but on the other hand, it's awfully tempting to whack old creaky equipment with a hammer, since nothing else seems to be working.
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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I had no intention of implying that you thought it was just an inconvenience - and my mistake if that seemed to be implied.

I don't think it should surprise anyone that IRCC does (in practice) prioritize based on perceived seriousness of the issue, and there are lots of other issues at present. That's understandable. We also expect them to occasionally regroup and catch up.

For this particular issue - 'remedies' are hard, apart from the simple adage that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and you can embarrass the government into paying attention (not easy, but possible). I'm not enough of a lawyer to speak to how the facts fit the tools available, but I'd be awfully tempted to speak to a lawyer about a writ of mandamus if I were in this situation.

it may be a case of everything looking like a nail when all you have is a hammer; but on the other hand, it's awfully tempting to whack old creaky equipment with a hammer, since nothing else seems to be working.
I did not think you were implying I thought the delays for in-person PRC pick-up was "just an inconvenience," and you were right to focus on the harshness of a bureaucratic approach which fails to adequately address the scope of inconvenience delays impose. Not all inconveniences are created equal.

I lack optimism about the availability of relief by way of mandamus, and would hesitate to suggest spending the money that would require (efforts to make just the requisite demand prior to initiating a Mandamus action generally require the assistance of a lawyer, and not just any lawyer but a good one). But this is simply my opinion.

But the other side of this, from the perspective of PRs making decisions well before they need a new PRC, there seems to be a persistent tendency among a significant number, if not a large number, that underestimates the extent to which the law, the rules, their interpretation and application, and the processes employed by both IRCC and CBSA, are oriented to facilitate and support PRs who are well-settled and PERMANENTLY living in Canada, and Not-So-Much otherwise. I have long made an effort to remind PRs, and especially those who are cutting-it-close, that what the law allows does NOT define what the law intends, and while the latter does not change or override what the law allows, it can have a huge impact on how the law and rules are applied. What the law allows does not in particular support lifestyles contrary to the purposes for the grant of PR . . . allowing such a lifestyle does not come close to supporting it.

That is why the "assumption" stated by @canuck78 is indeed an important one to understand. Big difference between those PRs (settled in Canada) and, for example, a PR who is cutting-it-close and who does not appear to be well-settled and permanently living in Canada. The latter is not required, but it can have a lot of influence in how things go.

This leads back to the observation about PRs apprehending the possibility of difficulty and delay in obtaining a PR TD if they go abroad. Here especially, the PR who is clearly well-settled and permanently living in Canada, and abroad actually traveling (not working or living or otherwise engaged in lengthy stays abroad), should have little or no reason to worry about being issued a PR TD (with some exceptions; certain places in the world pose more, shall we say "inconvenience," than others).

This does not resolve questions about how much IRCC can ignore the impact certain current practices have, like requiring in-person PRC pick-up but not actually arranging for or even allowing in-person PRC pick-up. IRCC has a legal imperative to apply the law as it is, and not employ practices which unduly affect PRs who are in compliance even if they might be perceived to not following through with the law's intent and purposes.

I am not much acquainted with whether MPs are of much help for these matters. But the effort to solicit a MPs assistance might be one way of making the wheel squeak that possibly gets heard. Not sure.
 
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armoured

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Feb 1, 2015
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I lack optimism about the availability of relief by way of mandamus, and would hesitate to suggest spending the money that would require (efforts to make just the requisite demand prior to initiating a Mandamus action generally require the assistance of a lawyer, and not just any lawyer but a good one). But this is simply my opinion.
To be clear, I only stated that I'd be tempted to consider mandamus in similar circumstances; I don't have the background or legal training to recommend it, even if from my untrained perspective these cases seem to have a more than superficial fit with mandamus criteria. While there may not be an underlying charter right, the law is quite clear that a permanent resident shall be provided with a document indicating their status.

But again, that's not a recommendation.

This leads back to the observation about PRs apprehending the possibility of difficulty and delay in obtaining a PR TD if they go abroad. Here especially, the PR who is clearly well-settled and permanently living in Canada, and abroad actually traveling (not working or living or otherwise engaged in lengthy stays abroad), should have little or no reason to worry about being issued a PR TD
Overall true, although (at risk of repeating for emphasis) the catch in this particular situation is that the "PR card pick-up" scenario seems to imply that IRCC apprehends some potential issue (possibly with RO), and even a well-settled PR in full compliance might rationally be wary of risking a PRTD - and that person seemingly also has no reliable way of determining whether there even is an issue.

Of course, it may be that there are very few such cases (at least in the sense of ones that are not or were not in question as opposed to having some underlying issue), but as you've well noted, there not being many of them doesn't make it 'right.'
 

zaid9199

Full Member
Sep 28, 2020
47
16
I just went to ask IRCC Hamilton about my PR Card, they said they’re still not open for in person pickup appointments and have no idea when they will. Seems the case with every other office as well.
 

OluwaT

Star Member
Oct 2, 2020
54
2
I got a letter for pick up two weeks ago in Edmonton office. I picked up my card yesterday and it went smoothly. I guess some offices are opening up.
 
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zaid9199

Full Member
Sep 28, 2020
47
16
I got a letter for pick up two weeks ago in Edmonton office. I picked up my card yesterday and it went smoothly. I guess some offices are opening up.
Oh that’s great to hear, finally. Maybe it is a matter of time now.
 

Rasha

Hero Member
Apr 26, 2008
529
38
Are they taking a year time for pr pick up ,that's really frustrating now
By the time you get the card, it’s going to have less than 4 years for expiry and you will need to renew in 3 years to avoid having an expired card too :S