I have been requested to collect the card in person, what is the worst case scenario?

[mike6612]

Hello everyone, I applied for my second PR renewal in October 2020 while I did not meet the RO , in Jan 2021 the application status was changed to `decision made` but I did not receive any correspondence, I contacted them using the webform and the officer replied:

"We verified the information on your file and are pleased to inform you that your permanent resident card (PR card) has been approved.
Once the card issued, it is sometimes randomly selected in order for you to pick it up in person at an IRCC office. This random selection is done to allow IRCC to gather information in our continuous effort to improve the processing of PR card applications.
As your card has been selected for pick-up, rest assured that you will be informed of the date, time, location for pick-up, and of the type of documents you will be asked to bring with you in due time."

I wanted to know is it possible that they revoke my PR status when I go there in person? Given the long processing time of my file, now I fulfill the required RO, does it count towards my RO? I believe I am still a permanent resident so can I withdraw my application and reapply now? what is the worst case that I should be prepared for? Is this card a regular 5 year card or could it be with a shorter validity?
Thank you and appreciate any comments.

 

[dpenabill]

This looks like ALL is WELL.

You might be asked what amounts to quality assurance questions to verify some information, and to verify that as of the day you are there to pick-up the PR card you are in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation. So, if you are currently in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation (in Canada >730 days between March 21, 2016 and today, March 20, 2021), and you continue to be in compliance until the day you personally go to the local IRCC office to pick-up the card, as scheduled, there is NO concern in regards to complying with the RO.

That is, yes, days in Canada after applying for a new PR card count . . .
. . . so long as you have not been issued a 44(1) Report and Departure Order, and have not had a PR Travel Document denied.

Various anecdotal reporting indicates that actual scheduling for in-person pick-up is currently disrupted by Covid-19 and thus this may not be scheduled for some time . . . as long as you remain in Canada this is no problem. Even if you left Canada, as long as you are now in compliance, and you continue to be in compliance with the RO, there should be NO worry about losing status (at least not related to enforcement of the RO . . . obviously there can be other matters, like criminality, if applicable to the individual).

The issuance of a 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility or the denial of an application for a PR TD, in the meantime, would be a different scenario. I am assuming this has not happened.


Some Further Observations Probably Not Relevant to Your Situation (but may help better explain how the process works):

For a PR who is not in compliance with the RO, once a PR card application is in process it will not help to withdraw the application (not usually anyway).

What matters most, after applying for a new PR card, is whether or not the PR is in compliance with the RO as of the date RO compliance is formally examined, NOT the date the PR card application was made. This means:

-- a PR in compliance with the RO as of the day the PR card application was made, but whose absences after applying lead to not being in compliance, is at risk for a formal RO compliance examination and a decision terminating PR status due to the breach of the RO, BUT​

-- a PR who was not in compliance on the date the application was made, but who stays in Canada long enough to get into compliance after applying and before IRCC formally conducts an examination of RO compliance (usually there is non-routine processing during which the PR is asked to submit additional information, and typically there is then an interview, the date of which is the date that matters) is OK relative to the RO​

That is, it is not like an application for citizenship, in which the PR's eligibility is fixed on the date of the application.

The main reason for the general consensus that a PR should be sure to be fully in compliance on the date a PR card application is made is that if the PR is not in compliance there is a risk IRCC could commence processing and conduct the formal RO compliance soon, and so soon that when that examination takes place the PR is still in breach, which would mean the PR is INADMISSIBLE, as a matter of law (subject to relief if there are sufficient H&C reasons), and instead of being issued a new PR card, getting issued a decision terminating PR status. But as already noted, what matters more, after applying for a new PR card, is whether or not the PR is in compliance with the RO by the date RO compliance is formally examined, NOT the date the PR card application was made.

Another reminder: even after being issued and delivered a new PR card, that has ZERO effect on calculating if the PR is in compliance with the RO in any future transaction with IRCC or CBSA. For example, if the PR goes abroad and upon returning to Canada is examined about RO compliance at the PoE, that will be based on whether or not the PR has been IN Canada at least 730 days in the immediately previous five years.

Example: PR picks up new PR card and leaves Canada, then returns later this year, say in mid-September, say September 17, 2021. Even with the almost brand new PR card, the PR's RO compliance will be based on days in Canada between September 17, 2016 and that day, September 17, 2021. If the total number of days IN Canada during that time is less than 730, DESPITE having a new PR card the PR is in breach of the RO and at RISK for being issued a 44(1) Report and Departure Order (a decision terminating PR status), unless there are sufficient H&C reasons. (This could happen where the PR was in compliance during the processing of the PR card application counting days from almost five years ago, and then those days fall outside the relevant five years going forward.)​

(Note, edited for clarification.)

Hello everyone, I applied for my second PR renewal in October 2020 while I did not meet the RO , in Jan 2021 the application status was changed to `decision made` but I did not receive any correspondence, I contacted them using the webform and the officer replied:

"We verified the information on your file and are pleased to inform you that your permanent resident card (PR card) has been approved.
Once the card issued, it is sometimes randomly selected in order for you to pick it up in person at an IRCC office. This random selection is done to allow IRCC to gather information in our continuous effort to improve the processing of PR card applications.
As your card has been selected for pick-up, rest assured that you will be informed of the date, time, location for pick-up, and of the type of documents you will be asked to bring with you in due time."

I wanted to know is it possible that they revoke my PR status when I go there in person? Given the long processing time of my file, now I fulfill the required RO, does it count towards my RO? I believe I am still a permanent resident so can I withdraw my application and reapply now? what is the worst case that I should be prepared for? Is this card a regular 5 year card or could it be with a shorter validity?
Thank you and appreciate any comments.

 

[armoured]

I wanted to know is it possible that they revoke my PR status when I go there in person?

To answer a slightly different implied question here: you seem to think this might be a trick.

As far as I'm aware, IRCC doesn't do this. In simple terms, it's almost certain that the letter means exactly what it says, if you're still in Canada and still in compliance with the RO.

Now, is it hypothetically feasible it could be a trick if you're an international drug kingpin or superspy? Well, conceivably - but then you have bigger problems than your PR card and probably wouldn't be asking this forum, and 'they' wouldn't be using a letter to tempt you out of hiding.

I'm exaggerating purposefully. I don't think iRCC does this, and I imagine there are legal problems (potential legal challenges) they would be creating for themselves if they did.

Apart from my somewhat outlandish depiction, @dpenabill has pretty comprehensively responded to the substance.

 

[mike6612]

This looks like ALL is WELL.

You might be asked what amounts to quality assurance questions to verify some information, and to verify that as of the day you are there to pick-up the PR card you are in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation. So, if you are currently in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation (in Canada >730 days between March 21, 2016 and today, March 20, 2021), and you continue to be in compliance until the day you personally go to the local IRCC office to pick-up the card, as scheduled, there is NO concern in regards to complying with the RO.

That is, yes, days in Canada after applying for a new PR card count . . .
. . . so long as you have not been issued a 44(1) Report and Departure Order, and have not had a PR Travel Document denied.

Various anecdotal reporting indicates that actual scheduling for in-person pick-up is currently disrupted by Covid-19 and thus this may not be scheduled for some time . . . as long as you remain in Canada this is no problem. Even if you left Canada, as long as you are now in compliance, and you continue to be in compliance with the RO, there should be NO worry about losing status (at least not related to enforcement of the RO . . . obviously there can be other matters, like criminality, if applicable to the individual).

The issuance of a 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility or the denial of an application for a PR TD, in the meantime, would be a different scenario. I am assuming this has not happened.


Some Further Observations Probably Not Relevant to Your Situation (but may help better explain how the process works):

For a PR who is not in compliance with the RO, once a PR card application is in process it will not help to withdraw the application (not usually anyway).

What matters most, after applying for a new PR card, is whether or not the PR is in compliance with the RO as of the date RO compliance is formally examined, NOT the date the PR card application was made. This means:

-- a PR in compliance with the RO as of the day the PR card application was made, but whose absences after applying lead to not being in compliance, is at risk for a formal RO compliance examination and a decision terminating PR status due to the breach of the RO, BUT​

-- a PR who was not in compliance on the date the application was made, but who stays in Canada long enough to get into compliance after applying and before IRCC formally conducts an examination of RO compliance (usually there is non-routine processing during which the PR is asked to submit additional information, and typically there is then an interview, the date of which is the date that matters) is OK relative to the RO​

That is, it is not like an application for citizenship, in which the PR's eligibility is fixed on the date of the application.

The main reason for the general consensus that a PR should be sure to be fully in compliance on the date a PR card application is made is that if the PR is not in compliance there is a risk IRCC could commence processing and conduct the formal RO compliance soon, and so soon that when that examination takes place the PR is still in breach, which would mean the PR is INADMISSIBLE, as a matter of law (subject to relief if there are sufficient H&C reasons), and instead of being issued a new PR card, getting issued a decision terminating PR status. But as already noted, what matters more, after applying for a new PR card, is whether or not the PR is in compliance with the RO by the date RO compliance is formally examined, NOT the date the PR card application was made.

Another reminder: even after being issued and delivered a new PR card, that has ZERO effect on calculating if the PR is in compliance with the RO in any future transaction with IRCC or CBSA. For example, if the PR goes abroad and upon returning to Canada is examined about RO compliance at the PoE, that will be based on whether or not the PR has been IN Canada at least 730 days in the immediately previous five years.

Example: PR picks up new PR card and leaves Canada, then returns later this year, say in mid-September, say September 17, 2021. Even with the almost brand new PR card, the PR's RO compliance will be based on days in Canada between September 17, 2016 and that day, September 17, 2021. If the total number of days IN Canada during that time is less than 730, DESPITE having a new PR card the PR is in breach of the RO and at RISK for being issued a 44(1) Report and Departure Order (a decision terminating PR status), unless there are sufficient H&C reasons. (This could happen where the PR was in compliance during the processing of the PR card application counting days from almost five years ago, and then those days fall outside the relevant five years going forward.)​

(Note, edited for clarification.)

Thank you so much for your time and reply, considering the lockdown it might take a few more months till they accept in person clients, can I reapply for a new PR and take the chance if they will post it to me or it won`t work while the issued PR card is still some where in the IRCC office?

 

[mike6612]

To answer a slightly different implied question here: you seem to think this might be a trick.

As far as I'm aware, IRCC doesn't do this. In simple terms, it's almost certain that the letter means exactly what it says, if you're still in Canada and still in compliance with the RO.

Now, is it hypothetically feasible it could be a trick if you're an international drug kingpin or superspy? Well, conceivably - but then you have bigger problems than your PR card and probably wouldn't be asking this forum, and 'they' wouldn't be using a letter to tempt you out of hiding.

I'm exaggerating purposefully. I don't think iRCC does this, and I imagine there are legal problems (potential legal challenges) they would be creating for themselves if they did.

Apart from my somewhat outlandish depiction, @dpenabill has pretty comprehensively responded to the substance.

thank you for your reply, the problem is, I need 3 more months to fill 730 days in Canada and I have not received any mail from IRCC yet for the date and location of the card pick up, if I am required to go there before my 730 days is fulfilled should I show up at all? would I be risking to receive Departure Order? can I wait 3 more months and then reapply assuming I am still PR? thank you.

 

[armoured]

thank you for your reply, the problem is, I need 3 more months to fill 730 days in Canada and I have not received any mail from IRCC yet for the date and location of the card pick up, if I am required to go there before my 730 days is fulfilled should I show up at all? would I be risking to receive Departure Order? can I wait 3 more months and then reapply assuming I am still PR? thank you.

Above you wrote "Given the long processing time of my file, now I fulfill the required RO." Now it's a different story.

Can't help you.

 

[mike6612]

Above you wrote "Given the long processing time of my file, now I fulfill the required RO." Now it's a different story.

Can't help you.

Sorry but that was a miscommunication, I meant I will fulfill based on my assumption that they will send out a letter and give me an appointment and the offices will open... Those were the thoughts in my head not to change the story,so I made it brief and understandable in my first part, and then I thought what if they ask me earlier than the required time for RO, then I wrote the second part here

 

[mike6612]

That was a miscommunication, I meant I will fulfill based on my assumption that they will send out a letter and give me an appointment and the offices will open... Those were the thoughts in my head not to change the story,so I made it brief and understandable in my first part, and then I thought what if they ask me earlier than the required time for RO, then I wrote the second part here

And also they are well aware of my exact days I had in Canada and apparently issued a new PR card, why would I say something different here? Thank you

 

[dpenabill]

thank you for your reply, the problem is, I need 3 more months to fill 730 days in Canada and I have not received any mail from IRCC yet for the date and location of the card pick up, if I am required to go there before my 730 days is fulfilled should I show up at all? would I be risking to receive Departure Order? can I wait 3 more months and then reapply assuming I am still PR? thank you.

Yeah, as @armoured noted . . . BIG difference

Given the long processing time of my file, now I fulfill the required RO, does it count towards my RO?

My previous "ALL is WELL" observation was premised specifically on you being in compliance "now." Rather clearly . . .

So, if you are currently in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation (in Canada >730 days between March 21, 2016 and today, March 20, 2021), and you continue to be in compliance until the day you personally go to the local IRCC office to pick-up the card, as scheduled, there is NO concern in regards to complying with the RO.​

And, as I already said in the previous post:

For a PR who is not in compliance with the RO, once a PR card application is in process it will not help to withdraw the application (not usually anyway).​

​

SO . . . You Applied for a New PR card even though you were Not eligible, not in compliance with the RO . . . and apparently quite a way short of being in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation. And you are still well short. What to do now?

NOT to DESPAIR. No reason to panic.

As you observe, IRCC knows the score and yet has "issued" a new PR card. That is indeed a good sign. NOT a guarantee, in contrast to what I suggested before (based on the misunderstanding that you are in compliance); not a guarantee all is well.

It is a good sign because you have not received RQ requests or been scheduled for a RQ-based interview/hearing/examination. These would have signaled that IRCC was proceeding to take negative action, to proceed to a formal RO compliance examination at which a decision could be made to terminate your PR status. So, the fact that this is not happening is a good sign.

Not a guarantee all is well because you are still in breach of the RO. Issuing you a new PR card does not change that. Even delivering a new PR card does not change that. Technically you could be delivered a new PR card and on that same day subject to a formal RO examination and issued a 44(1) Report and Departure Order, that is the formal decision to terminate your PR status.

You are somewhere in-between. Good sign that IRCC is not going to decide to terminate your status. But you have some RISK and NO guarantee they won't.

If you could afford a lawyer my guess is you would have already at least talked to one.

Other than going to a lawyer, assuming you are now well settled in Canada and have been living in Canada as such for . . . well at least since sometime before October 2020 . . . probably the best thing to do is simply follow through and comply with any requests or scheduled times to go pick up the card. If nothing happens, and the card pick up is not scheduled until after you have been here long enough to get back into compliance, then indeed things will THEN be OK.

If you are scheduled to pick up the card before the day you have been here long enough to be in full compliance, or otherwise asked to come in for an interview, my sense is trying to evade that is more likely to make things worse, not help. So, if that happens, just be sure to answer all questions honestly and be prepared, if it is needed, to give your best and HONEST explanation for why you were outside Canada so long.

Trying to forecast how it will go is very difficult. And it depends on a lot of particular details. The biggest detail is just how long you have been IN Canada now. The longer the better. The more settled in Canada you are, both in fact and in appearance, the better.

It appears that you are getting close to meeting the RO. It is possible, especially given the global pandemic situation, that IRCC is mostly concerned that you are currently actually IN Canada (which would be a reason for requiring an in-person pick up of the card).

So . . . see a lawyer, or ride it out, cooperating, being prepared to explain your situation.

​

 

[elman50203]

Hi Mike

Hope everything will go well with you in the PR Pick Up and hope they do not call you 3 month from now so you will be meeting your RO

But I am concerned now with the miss-presentation in your PR Renewal application

Are you Employed in Canada?

Do you have Land exits outside Canada after 25/6/2019 which you did not put correctly in your PR Renewal application?
Do you have Air exits outside Canada after 25/6/2020 which you did not put correctly in your PR Renewal application?
Do you have Air Entry into Canada after 1/7/2019 which you did not put correctly in your PR Renewal application?

thanks...