PGP 2020

[hodari]

I don't think that by making it a lottery system, they are turning it into a game. Nobody in the US who has migrated via the diversity lottery visa views that program as a game.
It is simply the only way they feel is fair in allocating a limited number of invitations. Some people don't have stable and fast internet connection, some may be working during that time, some people have mobility-based disabilities and cannot fill an online form as quick as others - all deserve an equal fair shot.

Perhaps they could use a weighted algorithm where the more years you've been waiting, the better chance you have - like if you meet the LICO requirements for 6 years, your entry counts as double or something like that.

 

[jotgrewal]

in the general form IMM0008, in the question re intended occupation - should my parents indicated 'retired'? they are now praising lawyers in Poland and they are not intending on working in Canada and will live off their savings from their home country.

thanks!

You can write that or just write 'not applicable'

 

[nayr69sg]

Here’s my thoughts and please feel free to share your opinions. The lottery in essence is demeaning and does not respect the dignity of its applicants and treats them like a trivial game rather than parents of hardworking taxpayers that have left their whole lives behind to immigrate to a new country. So yes maybe it is the fairest method but it has no regard for human dignity and that is potentially a human rights issue.

Leave out human rights issue.

It is not a right for immigrants to be able to sponsor their parents. Drop that.

 

[nayr69sg]

Would a lawsuit again make a difference?

Most definitely would. However would have to see what angle the lawyer frames the suit.

So far we have not seen any lawsuits on the PGP lottery despite lots of unhappiness since 2017. So maybe the lawyers dont think there is any basis for anyone to sue? Any lawyers here?

 

[nayr69sg]

I don't think that by making it a lottery system, they are turning it into a game. Nobody in the US who has migrated via the diversity lottery visa views that program as a game.
It is simply the only way they feel is fair in allocating a limited number of invitations. Some people don't have stable and fast internet connection, some may be working during that time, some people have mobility-based disabilities and cannot fill an online form as quick as others - all deserve an equal fair shot.

Perhaps they could use a weighted algorithm where the more years you've been waiting, the better chance you have - like if you meet the LICO requirements for 6 years, your entry counts as double or something like that.

As you said and many actually do agree with you "It is simply the only way they feel is fair in allocating a limited number of invitations"

So if indeed it is fair then why bother changing it?

US green card lottery is a game.

https://www.green-card.com/green-card-lottery/

 

[Aspiring Canadian]

I don't think that by making it a lottery system, they are turning it into a game. Nobody in the US who has migrated via the diversity lottery visa views that program as a game.
It is simply the only way they feel is fair in allocating a limited number of invitations. Some people don't have stable and fast internet connection, some may be working during that time, some people have mobility-based disabilities and cannot fill an online form as quick as others - all deserve an equal fair shot.

Perhaps they could use a weighted algorithm where the more years you've been waiting, the better chance you have - like if you meet the LICO requirements for 6 years, your entry counts as double or something like that.

i really like this point "Perhaps they could use a weighted algorithm where the more years you've been waiting, the better chance you have - like if you meet the LICO requirements for 6 years, your entry counts as double or something like that."

but to add to that the weighted algorithm should also account for time spent and years of taxes filed in Canada.

 

[hodari]

As you said and many actually do agree with you "It is simply the only way they feel is fair in allocating a limited number of invitations"

So if indeed it is fair then why bother changing it?

US green card lottery is a game.

https://www.green-card.com/green-card-lottery/

I meant lottery is fair, but perhaps it can simply be tweaked into a weighted lottery to help people who have been waiting longer.
Also, that link you shared means nothing. There's plenty of clickbaity non-official websites using similar techniques to promote Express Entry as well.

 

[nayr69sg]

i really like this point "Perhaps they could use a weighted algorithm where the more years you've been waiting, the better chance you have - like if you meet the LICO requirements for 6 years, your entry counts as double or something like that."

but to add to that the weighted algorithm should also account for time spent and years of taxes filed in Canada.

But the problem is the same person suggesting also says "It is simply the only way they feel is fair in allocating a limited number of invitations" which is what many feel as well. That it is fair.

Actually objectively from a purely fairness point of view a lottery is indeed very very fair.

You can't argue on the point of fairness on a lottery. Wins hands down. Lotteries are the FAIREST means to distribute anything. Total random. What is unfair about Lotto Max? If you explain why Lotto Max is "unfair" then maybe you got something there but I have not heard anyone able to argue that way.

Now you can argue that it is not the appropriate system to allocate resources to the right people who need it in a timely manner. For example say there were 10 operation slots for Total Knee Replacements in the next month. And they used a lottery to decide who gets their operation. Is it fair? Sure. Is it appropriate and the best system to use? Nope.

 

[nayr69sg]

I meant lottery is fair, but perhaps it can simple be tweaked into a weighted lottery to help people who have been waiting longer.
Also, that link you shared means nothing. There's plenty of clickbaity non-official websites using similar techniques to promote Express Entry as well.

And you don't think that lends strength to my claim that the lottery is a game? LOL!

I think the first step is to get them to move away from the lottery as a system to allocate PGP spots/resources.

Keep the message simple.

Get the lottery out. Once they agree the lottery is out then they can think of something else.

The FIFO is probably out already. We will never have FIFO again.

If you dilute the message too much say things like yes have the lottery but tweak the lottery then some people will say that tweak makes the lottery unfair.

People will say hey you may have been here for 6 years and me 3 years but your parents are younger in their 60s while mine are in their 80s! So that's not fair.

All kinds of things.

I do think the ideal is to have a points based system. Some things we need to agree are merits and some are burdens. Put points on these things. Then choose the parent candidates that best suit Canada and not burden Canada too much.

They can still set aside a smaller number of spots as a lottery for those who don't meet the points.

 

[hodari]

And you don't think that lends strength to my claim that the lottery is a game? LOL!

You can LOL all you want, it won't make your point stick

I do think the ideal is to have a points based system. Some things we need to agree are merits and some are burdens. Put points on these things. Then choose the parent candidates that best suit Canada and not burden Canada too much.

They can still set aside a smaller number of spots as a lottery for those who don't meet the points.

Points on what exactly? Age? This is PGP which includes grandparents. The average age would probably be high for those anyway, it's expected so this wont make sense.
Points on your wealth? No immigration program gives better chances based on wealth as long as you meet a set minimum for that program.
Points on how long you've been waiting? The weighted lottery would handle this better. Better chances for those who have been waiting a long time, while still giving a chance to people who have only just become eligible.

 

[nayr69sg]

You can LOL all you want, it won't make your point stick

Points on what exactly? Age? This is PGP which includes grandparents. The average age would probably be high for those anyway, it's expected so this wont make sense.
Points on your wealth? No immigration program gives better chances based on wealth as long as you meet a set minimum for that program.
Points on how long you've been waiting? The weighted lottery would handle this better. Better chances for those who have been waiting a long time, while still giving a chance to people who have only just become eligible.

Your suggestion of a weighted lottery is excellent! It will certainly help those who have been waiting a longer time to have better chances.

So how long? How much weight? How do you decide what is fair in determining those parameters?

Personally I think just keep the lottery as it is if you are going to have a lottery. In the end what people really want is to sponsor their parents. They don't really care what system. And the plain old least tweaks lottery system is indeed the fairest. Is it the most appropriate? I dont think so. But fair. Certainly.

 

[hodari]

So how long? How much weight? How do you decide what is fair in determining those parameters?

This is a strange concern for someone who prefers a point system where it's literally a bunch of parameters.
Btw I've only been waiting 1 year. I'm in Quebec so the current system works best for me, I just feel bad for those who have been waiting longer.
The 'fairest' system would be where they accept everyone but then process applications at a rate of 20K a year so everyone ends up waiting 10 years - but if you polled people on their preferences I think that would come in last.

 

[nayr69sg]

This is a strange concern for someone who prefers a point system where it's literally a bunch of parameters.
Btw I've only been waiting 1 year. I'm in Quebec so the current system works best for me, I just feel bad for those who have been waiting longer.
The 'fairest' system would be where they accept everyone but then process applications at a rate of 20K a year so everyone ends up waiting 10 years - but if you polled people on their preferences I think that would come in last.

I totally agree. So you got a spot in your first year trying! Awesome!

Keep the lottery as it is. It is the fairest system. I don't like the lottery. But through discussions here I have to agree it is the fairest method. And also the easiest most simple method. No risks of lawsuits either. Don't try to tweak it. It will only serve to make it unfair.

It is perfect in terms of fairness. Like I said no one has ever been able to argue why Lotto Max is unfair.

Too bad for those still waiting. I can only wish them good luck! Your turn might come. But the lottery it way better than waiting 10 years in a queue system.

I am going to buy some Lotto Max tickets. It is not a game to me either. Serious changes will happen to my life if I won!

 

[captlevi]

Does anyone have a draft of the CV for parents?

 

[screech339]

That's because you are very lucky and won the lottery on the first try.

Doubt you will be saying the same if after 5 years you are still trying.

I will still call for lotto if I was waiting for 5 years of trying in the name of fairness.