Spousal Outland PR as a US citizen Commuter?

[wallywaf]

Hello, I am looking at applying for spousal Canadian Outland PR under a unique scenario:

My wife (Canadian Citizen and US-PR) and myself (US citizen) are physicians who work and live in the USA in a border town. With the birth of our child and increased difficultly with child care from Canadian family (requiring prolonged flights/quarantine instead of a quick drive). We are interested in moving up the road to Canada to be closer to family, and commute to our jobs in the US. My wife would transition to a US commuter PR. My questions for myself are:

1) Is there a way that a US citizen can stay/live in CA for longer than the normal 6 months once applied to an Outland PR (outside of doing inland/OWP)? Or am I only able to be in CA for 6 months out of likely a >12 month wait time for PR.

2) Would there be issues commuting daily from CA to US (from a CBSA perspective) while outland PR is in process? (irregardless of COVID travel restrictions issues)

3) With COVID restrictions: I have a letter stating that I am an essential US healthcare worker, and should also fall under the immediate family exemption (would have wife/child & primary residence in CA). I know US commuters to CA and CA commuter to US are normally exempt from restrictions and quarantine, but what about my scenario?

Thanks!

 

[jddd]

1. You can apply to extend your stay but when at the border do not look like you are moving to Canada.

2. IMO, yes, because you cannot live in Canada. If you cross the border daily then it will be obvious you are trying to live here when you do not have that right yet.

3. If staying in Canada for less than 15 days, you need to be exempt from travel restrictions, being an immediate family member only applies if you will stay for over 15 days. See below:

Immediate family members of a Canadian citizen or permanent resident
To be eligible, you must provide evidence that you’re both

• an immediate family member of a Canadian citizen or permanent resident
• staying in Canada for at least 15 days

If you’re staying for less than 15 days, you must meet the same requirements as all other foreign nationals.

All other foreign nationals
To be eligible, you must meet 2 requirements:

• You must be travelling for an essentialFootnote 1 (non-discretionary) purpose.
• You must be either
  • travelling directly from the US
  • exempt from the travel restrictions

 

[scylla]

Hello, I am looking at applying for spousal Canadian Outland PR under a unique scenario:

My wife (Canadian Citizen and US-PR) and myself (US citizen) are physicians who work and live in the USA in a border town. With the birth of our child and increased difficultly with child care from Canadian family (requiring prolonged flights/quarantine instead of a quick drive). We are interested in moving up the road to Canada to be closer to family, and commute to our jobs in the US. My wife would transition to a US commuter PR. My questions for myself are:

1) Is there a way that a US citizen can stay/live in CA for longer than the normal 6 months once applied to an Outland PR (outside of doing inland/OWP)? Or am I only able to be in CA for 6 months out of likely a >12 month wait time for PR.

2) Would there be issues commuting daily from CA to US (from a CBSA perspective) while outland PR is in process? (irregardless of COVID travel restrictions issues)

3) With COVID restrictions: I have a letter stating that I am an essential US healthcare worker, and should also fall under the immediate family exemption (would have wife/child & primary residence in CA). I know US commuters to CA and CA commuter to US are normally exempt from restrictions and quarantine, but what about my scenario?

Thanks!

#2 is a problem. Sooner or later you should expect that CBSA will say you cannot continue doing this (i.e. commuting daily) since you are not allowed to live in Canada at this time and this is the behaviour of a resident and not visitor. You might be able to pull this off for a short while. However eventually (possibly quite quickly) you should expect you'll be told you need to stop and/or refused entry into Canada. Unfortunately it's really not a viable plan. (Nothing to do with COVID-19.)

 

[wallywaf]

#2 is a problem. Sooner or later you should expect that CBSA will say you cannot continue doing this (i.e. commuting daily) since you are not allowed to live in Canada at this time and this is the behaviour of a resident and not visitor. You might be able to pull this off for a short while. However eventually (possibly quite quickly) you should expect you'll be told you need to stop and/or refused entry into Canada. Unfortunately it's really not a viable plan. (Nothing to do with COVID-19.)

1. You can apply to extend your stay but when at the border do not look like you are moving to Canada.

2. IMO, yes, because you cannot live in Canada. If you cross the border daily then it will be obvious you are trying to live here when you do not have that right yet.

3. If staying in Canada for less than 15 days, you need to be exempt from travel restrictions, being an immediate family member only applies if you will stay for over 15 days. See below:

Immediate family members of a Canadian citizen or permanent resident
To be eligible, you must provide evidence that you’re both

• an immediate family member of a Canadian citizen or permanent resident
• staying in Canada for at least 15 days

If you’re staying for less than 15 days, you must meet the same requirements as all other foreign nationals.

All other foreign nationals
To be eligible, you must meet 2 requirements:

• You must be travelling for an essentialFootnote 1 (non-discretionary) purpose.
• You must be either
  • travelling directly from the US
  • exempt from the travel restrictions

Thanks for the response, my follow up question would be what about applying inland + commuting (would be 4 days a week)? Could even apply for OWP, even though I wouldn't need it for my current job. My understanding is you are allowed to live in Canada while Inland Spousal Application is in process. And that travel is technically allowed, albeit up to CBSA agent - but most articles/posts I have read are successful especially being visa-exempt. And in this case being short driving trips, and clearly coming home nightly to a Canadian residence, wife and child would show that there is no abandoning the application (obviously up to the CBSA - but lower risk?)

Thanks,

 

[canuck78]

Thanks for the response, my follow up question would be what about applying inland + commuting (would be 4 days a week)? Could even apply for OWP, even though I wouldn't need it for my current job. My understanding is you are allowed to live in Canada while Inland Spousal Application is in process. And that travel is technically allowed, albeit up to CBSA agent - but most articles/posts I have read are successful especially being visa-exempt. And in this case being short driving trips, and clearly coming home nightly to a Canadian residence, wife and child would show that there is no abandoning the application (obviously up to the CBSA - but lower risk?)

Thanks,

The big issue is your frequent trip across the border. When applying for inland sponsorship you are essentially advised to try to avoid travelling outside Canada because there are no guarantees you will be allowed to reenter. There is usually a bit of flexibility if you leave once or twice but frequent trips will lead you to be denied entry at a certain point. You will also be waiting for around 6 months until you even get AOR these days so you’ll be living in Canada as a visitor for all that time. It’s really not a viable plan.

 

[goldfinger]

Hello, I am looking at applying for spousal Canadian Outland PR under a unique scenario:

My wife (Canadian Citizen and US-PR) and myself (US citizen) are physicians who work and live in the USA in a border town. With the birth of our child and increased difficultly with child care from Canadian family (requiring prolonged flights/quarantine instead of a quick drive). We are interested in moving up the road to Canada to be closer to family, and commute to our jobs in the US. My wife would transition to a US commuter PR. My questions for myself are:

1) Is there a way that a US citizen can stay/live in CA for longer than the normal 6 months once applied to an Outland PR (outside of doing inland/OWP)? Or am I only able to be in CA for 6 months out of likely a >12 month wait time for PR.

2) Would there be issues commuting daily from CA to US (from a CBSA perspective) while outland PR is in process? (irregardless of COVID travel restrictions issues)

3) With COVID restrictions: I have a letter stating that I am an essential US healthcare worker, and should also fall under the immediate family exemption (would have wife/child & primary residence in CA). I know US commuters to CA and CA commuter to US are normally exempt from restrictions and quarantine, but what about my scenario?

Thanks!

I have a concern about this - I believe that one of the conditions required of sponsors is to be a Canadian resident who resides exclusively in Canada, or to show intent to reside in Canada. I worry that your wife’s intent to remain a U.S. permanent resident will be an issue. You might want to do some research there before submitting anything. If anyone has any thoughts, let me know, but completing the application gave me the impression that sponsorship is not for dual residents.

 

[wallywaf]

I have a concern about this - I believe that one of the conditions required of sponsors is to be a Canadian resident who resides exclusively in Canada, or to show intent to reside in Canada. I worry that your wife’s intent to remain a U.S. permanent resident will be an issue. You might want to do some research there before submitting anything. If anyone has any thoughts, let me know, but completing the application gave me the impression that sponsorship is not for dual residents.

Any Canadian Citizen may sponsor their spouse, regardless of where they are living. There is a section that one must “prove” they they will move back to CA once spousal sponsor goes through. For folks who are “Outland/Consular processing” this is just showing reasonable future timeline/thoughtful plans/actions of intent as we are talking about a year + in the future. In this situation she is not dual (not that it matters?), and her intent is to change to a US commuter GC, which allows her to keep her US GC while living in Canada.

 

[wallywaf]

Also for anyone who reads this thread in the future, I ended up obtaining legal counsel with a CA/US immigration lawyer. They confirmed that indeed my above scenario is feasible. After submitting Outland/Consular PR and after IRCC receipt is obtained, I can present as a family and request an issuance of multi-use visitor record (up to CBSA discretion- but routinely done) to allow my family to be together in CA while CPR is processing. Once obtained then I would be able to be in Canada for the duration of processing, and commute to the US daily as a US citizen. Obviously, check with your counsel to discuss your situation as may be different.

 

[jddd]

Also for anyone who reads this thread in the future, I ended up obtaining legal counsel with a CA/US immigration lawyer. They confirmed that indeed my above scenario is feasible. After submitting Outland/Consular PR and after IRCC receipt is obtained, I can present as a family and request an issuance of multi-use visitor record (up to CBSA discretion- but routinely done) to allow my family to be together in CA while CPR is processing. Once obtained then I would be able to be in Canada for the duration of processing, and commute to the US daily as a US citizen. Obviously, check with your counsel to discuss your situation as may be different.

I think you should get a second opinion because in our firm, we already know of one with an outland sponsorhip pending that has been denied entry just last week.

 

[wallywaf]

I think you should get a second opinion because in our firm, we already know of one with an outland sponsorhip pending that has been denied entry just last week.

Was this COV19 related or during normal times? Did they have a multi-entry Visitor Record (VR) on file from CBSA from the initial POE? To my understanding this then gets put in your file and establishes you as a temporary resident.

As for the border closings if that played a part, I am an essential healthcare worker and would have a letter from CA lawyer and work - so that’s the other part of the equation.

 

[jddd]

Was this COV19 related or during normal times? Did they have a multi-entry Visitor Record (VR) on file from CBSA from the initial POE? To my understanding this then gets put in your file and establishes you as a temporary resident.

As for the border closings if that played a part, I am an essential healthcare worker and would have a letter from CA lawyer and work - so that’s the other part of the equation.

This just happened last week. The spouse is a US citizen nurse who works in Detroit. She also has a letter from work that she is essential. A visitor record was rejected by the CBSA as she is a US citizen and they do not want her living in Canada and commuting daily. They have been married for 5 years with 2 Canadian children.

Edit: She attempted TWICE last week and was rejected both times. They told her she needs to be an essential worker FOR CANADA to be eligible for the exemption. Being a US essential worker was not considered.

Like I said, get a second opinion is my advice.

 

[wallywaf]

This just happened last week. The spouse is a US citizen nurse who works in Detroit. She also has a letter from work that she is essential. A visitor record was rejected by the CBSA as she is a US citizen and they do not want her living in Canada and commuting daily. They have been married for 5 years with 2 Canadian children.

Edit: She attempted TWICE last week and was rejected both times. They told her she needs to be an essential worker FOR CANADA to be eligible for the exemption. Being a US essential worker was not considered.

Like I said, get a second opinion is my advice.

Thanks, good to know. Sounds definitely border/agent specific, and key here is she wasn’t granted a VR. If a VR was granted initially, assuming that wouldn’t have been the case with her subsequent denials?

 

[scylla]

Thanks, good to know. Sounds definitely border/agent specific, and key here is she wasn’t granted a VR. If a VR was granted initially, assuming that wouldn’t have been the case with her subsequent denials?

A VR doesn't guarantee re-entery. You can still be refused entry into Canada even if you hold a VR.

 

[Underhill]

Thanks, good to know. Sounds definitely border/agent specific, and key here is she wasn’t granted a VR. If a VR was granted initially, assuming that wouldn’t have been the case with her subsequent denials?

During non-COVID times the whimsy (and total power) of the CBSA should not be dismissed as something that can be managed procedurally. If you get flagged for any reason you’re in for a rough couple of years trying to unwind their actions - regardless of when/where a VR was granted.

During COVID times I wouldn’t count on any border crossing to go smoothly.

 

[jddd]

Thanks, good to know. Sounds definitely border/agent specific, and key here is she wasn’t granted a VR. If a VR was granted initially, assuming that wouldn’t have been the case with her subsequent denials?

I don't think that a VR is key. Like scylla said, even if you are granted it on entry, it does not guarantee re-entry. You really need a second opinion because a lawyer letter does nothing at the border. As a US citizen spouse of a Canadian, she was a good candidate for the VR but as soon as CBSA determined that she needed it because she planned to commute daily, it was not granted.