Confusion About CSIS Notes

[StellaArtois]

Hey all, hoping for some insight. Our case is not typical, so hoping that other people who have similar experiences and/or are more knowledgeable can help us understand.

I am a Canadian citizen living in Canada sponsoring my husband, a US citizen living in the US. My husband has 4 criminal charges all from 2004 or earlier - 2 for marijuana possession (less than 1 g each) and 2 for domestic assault (overnight jail sentence for first, 10 day jail sentence for second; no physical injury in either case; same woman having him arrested in both cases).
The only travel history he has outside of the US is crossing the border to Canada by car in the late 1990s/early 2000s for very short stays (less than 1 week), and 8 months in Australia in 2006 (he got 3 month visitor visa on entry and exited to NZ before it expired and re-entered to get another 3 month visitor visa so that he could stay). He has never been to any countries that are considered "suspicious" by CSIS/CBSA/IRCC standards. He has no military or political background.
We submitted our outland family class sponsorship application along with the criminal rehabilitation application in May 2019. Detailed timeline in my signature.

Our background check has been "in process" at the very least since August 27, 2019 (the first time our lawyers sent us a screenshot of our application on GCKEY), possibly even before that.

On July 26, 2020, we submitted ATIP requests to obtain notes on our case. Only CSIS has gotten back to us so far (response dated August 6, 2020; received response in physical mail August 14, 2020); still waiting on CBSA and GCMS notes. CSIS stated the following:

"A search for the requested information was completed on the basis of the information provided by you and we were unable to locate any record relevant to [my husband's name]".

I checked all the information that we gave them (which they also included in their response) - my husband's full name, date of birth, country of birth, file number (F000######), application type, date received by IRCC, current VO processing the application - and it is all completely accurate.

I am confused because our background check has been "in process" for 12 months or more now, and given my husband's criminal charges/CR application, it seems like CSIS should have been involved already...?

The "Details about your application status" in GCKEY literally have not changed since August 27, 2019 - every screenshot our lawyer sends us it is still the exact same, and it is as follows:

Review of eligibility: We are reviewing whether you meet the eligibility requirements
Review of medical results: August 1, 2019. You passed the medical exam.
Review of additional documents: We do not need additional documents.
Interview: You do not need an interview. We will send you a message if this changes.
Biometrics: We do not need your fingerprints. We will send you a message if this changes. (biometrics were enrolled August 27, 2019 and expire August 27, 2029)
Background Check: We are processing your background check. We will send you a message if we need more information.
Final decision: Your application is in progress. We will send you a message once the final decision has been made.

Does anyone else have any stipulations for what could be going on in our application processing?

 

[armoured]

On July 26, 2020, we submitted ATIP requests to obtain notes on our case. Only CSIS has gotten back to us so far (response dated August 6, 2020; received response in physical mail August 14, 2020); still waiting on CBSA and GCMS notes. CSIS stated the following:

"A search for the requested information was completed on the basis of the information provided by you and we were unable to locate any record relevant to [my husband's name]".
...
I am confused because our background check has been "in process" for 12 months or more now, and given my husband's criminal charges/CR application, it seems like CSIS should have been involved already...?
...
Does anyone else have any stipulations for what could be going on in our application processing?

Obviously this is somewhat speculative, but I think the banal and likely answer is that CSIS doesn't deal with the violations you mentioned. Their mandate is "security" (terrorism, espionage, etc), not minor run-of-the-mill criminal cases, and they quite possibly simply don't have a file.

In your case - assuming all accurate and you disclosed all this on applying - they know what the issues are and the question is determining whether the charges make your spouse inadmissible. I presume that's something IRCC can determine internally, they don't need the spooks to tell them, or if other agencies are involved, more likely RCMP or CBSA.

Unfortunately I've no insight on processing of your app. If you've a lawyer, perhaps they could inform.

 

[StellaArtois]

Obviously this is somewhat speculative, but I think the banal and likely answer is that CSIS doesn't deal with the violations you mentioned. Their mandate is "security" (terrorism, espionage, etc), not minor run-of-the-mill criminal cases, and they quite possibly simply don't have a file.

In your case - assuming all accurate and you disclosed all this on applying - they know what the issues are and the question is determining whether the charges make your spouse inadmissible. I presume that's something IRCC can determine internally, they don't need the spooks to tell them, or if other agencies are involved, more likely RCMP or CBSA.

Unfortunately I've no insight on processing of your app. If you've a lawyer, perhaps they could inform.

Thank you for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate it.

I was under the impression that all immigration applications eventually go to CSIS as a necessary part of the security screening regardless of background because of what I read here http://canada4immigration.com/background-check-work and here https://www.canada.ca/en/security-intelligence-service/services/security-screening-for-immigration-and-citizenship-applications.html

I originally figured that maybe since they had already started the background check so early for my husband (due to the CR) that maybe CSIS would be involved early on too.

But you're definitely right about the spooks being concerned with terrorism and espionage and the likes rather than minor criminality, so I hope that's the reason there's no file there and not because our case has fallen through the cracks...

Thank you again for your answer, it is nice to hear another opinion. Hope this thread helps anyone else who is in a similar situation. I will definitely consult with our lawyer about this as well.

 

[armoured]

I was under the impression that all immigration applications eventually go to CSIS as a necessary part of the security screening regardless of background because of what I read here: http://canada4immigration.com/background-check-work
I originally figured that maybe since they had already started the background check so early for my husband (due to the CR) that maybe CSIS would be involved early on too.

As that page points out, one possibility is that it has not been sent to CSIS at all yet. Which could make sense if the question of admissibility for the criminal record has not been settled.

The other possibility (pure speculation) gets into the question of what CSIS considers a "record." If this means for them an internal "file" or database entry on individuals or entities of concern, they may not have one on your spouse, as their response indicated. Somewhere in government there is likely also tracking of requests made about individuals (in simple terms, IRCC sends a request to CSIS saying "do you have any concerns about this person?"), and that would be a "record" in one sense (it is a database entry, too). But it's possible CSIS does not consider this a "record" for some narrow reason (e.g. acc to their rules, the "record" is an IRCC record).

Anyway, if the situation is as you described it, it may not be worth worrying about as quite probably outside CSIS' area of interest anyway, and the only thing you would really be finding out is whether or not CSIS has actually been "pinged" by IRCC yet or not on this file.

Again, speak to your lawyer, but on the surface, doesn't seem much reason CSIS would have an interest in your file.

 

[StellaArtois]

Appreciate you sharing your thoughts and speculations, thanks! I didn't consider that possibility; hope it can be the case (though we all have no idea of course).

Well, so much for getting around everything IRCC redacts in the GCMS notes by ordering the CSIS ones...

 

[StellaArtois]

Did you order GCMS notes? I found our case is very similar. If I am not wrong IRCC will screen sponsor first to make sure there's no pending charges or serious security thread on the sponsor. For the applicant, it depends on your case. Mine app has some complications so they rescheduled the applicant CSIS check to a later date.
You can take reference from the security estimated processing date on GCMS notes.
By the way, I wish you good luck with CR application.

Not sure why your post disappeared, thank you spectatorXXII for sharing.
I did get approved as my husband's sponsor already in July 2019, so does that mean they are done screening me or do they do more screening after the approval?
Okay, I will wait until I have my GCMS notes before I try CSIS again. It was nice that CSIS got back so quickly; too bad IRCC and CBSA are far more backlogged with requests to respond nearly as efficiently...

 

[spectatorXXII]

Not sure why your post disappeared, thank you spectatorXXII for sharing.
I did get approved as my husband's sponsor already in July 2019, so does that mean they are done screening me or do they do more screening after the approval?
Okay, I will wait until I have my GCMS notes before I try CSIS again. It was nice that CSIS got back so quickly; too bad IRCC and CBSA are far more backlogged with requests to respond nearly as efficiently...

Yes. Your part is definitely done. You can order CBSA notes to see what they have screened. I ordered mine it came out 46 pages of security screening. I assume part of the reason is I was living abroad for twenty years.
For the domestic charges as far as I know IRCC takes it seriously. I had dropped one three years ago and now they really flagged my application.
it gives me an impression weed charges are minor but that family violence is not. What did your lawyer say? Did you attach some letter of explanation with your application? I just saw it on the IRCC website, sometimes officers can apply H&c consideration to the spousal app, so I assume IRCC can overweight criminal inadmissibility.

 

[StellaArtois]

Yes. Your part is definitely done. You can order CBSA notes to see what they have screened. I ordered mine it came out 46 pages of security screening. I assume part of the reason is I was living abroad for twenty years.
For the domestic charges as far as I know IRCC takes it seriously. I had dropped one three years ago and now they really flagged my application.
it gives me an impression weed charges are minor but that family violence is not. What did your lawyer say? Did you attach some letter of explanation with your application? I just saw it on the IRCC website, sometimes officers can apply H&c consideration to the spousal app, so I assume IRCC can overweight criminal inadmissibility.

Okay, it definitely sounds like the CBSA notes will be a lot more informative/helpful than the CSIS ones were (at least at this stage). How long did it take for you to receive your CBSA notes? Did you order them post pandemic shutdown, or before March 2020?

Yes, our immigration lawyer (and the criminal lawyer she brought to consult with us as well) said the weed charges would not be a big deal, especially with the small amounts; the big red flag is of course the domestic assault charges, particularly because we're doing family class sponsorship. Unfortunately his charges were not dismissed; the woman he was with at that time was a very vengeful ex...
That really sucks for you that yours were dropped but they still flagged you. Have they asked you for any additional information/documentation about the incident? Did you need to apply for H&C considerations?

When we applied, we had lengthy explanations about the charges and how his life has drastically changed since then. We also had a character reference from the pastor who officiated our wedding, and his mother and I both wrote him one as well (though I'm sure the pastor's is the most meaningful in the eyes of the officers). Our lawyer also wrote a cover letter and requested H&C considerations for us if he were to be considered criminally inadmissible...
Our lawyer said she is hopeful that the officers will see my husband is not a dangerous man with the extremely light sentences (relative to typical domestic assault sentences), and with the fact that there were no actual injuries in both cases of the charges, and with how the detailed narratives we gave behind both domestic assault charges clearly showed he had no intention to cause harm. Guess we'll see how reasonable the officers are...

 

[scylla]

Okay, it definitely sounds like the CBSA notes will be a lot more informative/helpful than the CSIS ones were (at least at this stage). How long did it take for you to receive your CBSA notes? Did you order them post pandemic shutdown, or before March 2020?

Yes, our immigration lawyer (and the criminal lawyer she brought to consult with us as well) said the weed charges would not be a big deal, especially with the small amounts; the big red flag is of course the domestic assault charges, particularly because we're doing family class sponsorship. Unfortunately his charges were not dismissed; the woman he was with at that time was a very vengeful ex...
That really sucks for you that yours were dropped but they still flagged you. Have they asked you for any additional information/documentation about the incident? Did you need to apply for H&C considerations?

When we applied, we had lengthy explanations about the charges and how his life has drastically changed since then. We also had a character reference from the pastor who officiated our wedding, and his mother and I both wrote him one as well (though I'm sure the pastor's is the most meaningful in the eyes of the officers). Our lawyer also wrote a cover letter and requested H&C considerations for us if he were to be considered criminally inadmissible...
Our lawyer said she is hopeful that the officers will see my husband is not a dangerous man with the extremely light sentences (relative to typical domestic assault sentences), and with the fact that there were no actual injuries in both cases of the charges, and with how the detailed narratives we gave behind both domestic assault charges clearly showed he had no intention to cause harm. Guess we'll see how reasonable the officers are...

You submitted a rehab application as well, correct? Sorry if that was already mentioned and I missed it.

 

[StellaArtois]

You submitted a rehab application as well, correct? Sorry if that was already mentioned and I missed it.

Yes, we submitted CR with PR application

 

[StellaArtois]

Just an update, my MP finally managed to get ahold of the IRCC, and this is what they sent me:

I have spoken to IRCC today about your husband’s application and don’t have much more information to provide to you at this time.


PR (Family Sponsorship) Outland Application
The file was received May 24, 2019
Sponsor’s Eligibility – passed July 15, 2019
File was transferred to New York office to undergo Eligibility of Principal Applicant
Security – not started
Medical – expired August 1, 2020 (when they review the file they will provide further instructions on medical)
Criminality – completed but there is a Criminal Rehabilitation application in process that needs to be approved.
The Criminal Rehabilitation application has been matched to the PR Application.
The file is non-routine in nature and must be reviewed for Principal Applicant’s eligibility.
Unfortunately, until they review the file, he is criminally inadmissible to Canada as it stands.
The New York office is not fully operational yet. Expect delays in processing due to the COVID-19.
This is a more complicated file and is considered non-routine. There are no time frames on non-routine files.

I will continue to monitor the file and get another update in a month.

So it seems that they start security/CSIS investigation separately, and not at the same time as criminality/CBSA portion, even for criminal rehabilitation applications. Now I'm finally 100% sure about why CSIS has no file on our application yet even though background check was "in process" for over 12 months.

Glad I was finally able to get a sure answer... only took the MP 2 months to get ahold of IRCC (and our lawyer and I still haven't been able to)!

 

[Joeydocs]

Just an update, my MP finally managed to get ahold of the IRCC, and this is what they sent me:



So it seems that they start security/CSIS investigation separately, and not at the same time as criminality/CBSA portion, even for criminal rehabilitation applications. Now I'm finally 100% sure about why CSIS has no file on our application yet even though background check was "in process" for over 12 months.

Glad I was finally able to get a sure answer... only took the MP 2 months to get ahold of IRCC (and our lawyer and I still haven't been able to)!

I wouldn’t worry about the marijuana possession charges. It’s legal in canada.

 

[armoured]

I saw claims in gcms notes thread that "not started" is standard in gcms notes until complete, ie it may not mean anything. Whether or not that is true, as above, it's the criminal rehabilitation and eligibility / admissibility that is the issue, unless and until that's resolved, the rest will not matter.

 

[StellaArtois]

I saw claims in gcms notes thread that "not started" is standard in gcms notes until complete, ie it may not mean anything. Whether or not that is true, as above, it's the criminal rehabilitation and eligibility / admissibility that is the issue, unless and until that's resolved, the rest will not matter.

Okay, that's good to keep in mind about "not started" possibly being everything up to completion. Thanks!
In our case I think it would make sense they've put eligibility and security on hold until CR has decision. Hopefully it's not because our file got lost ^^;

 

[Ashad9574]

Yes. Your part is definitely done. You can order CBSA notes to see what they have screened. I ordered mine it came out 46 pages of security screening. I assume part of the reason is I was living abroad for twenty years.
For the domestic charges as far as I know IRCC takes it seriously. I had dropped one three years ago and now they really flagged my application.
it gives me an impression weed charges are minor but that family violence is not. What did your lawyer say? Did you attach some letter of explanation with your application? I just saw it on the IRCC website, sometimes officers can apply H&c consideration to the spousal app, so I assume IRCC can overweight criminal inadmissibility.

How did u order gcms from cbsa ?? I got one from ircc bu t i need one from vcbsa