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Stuck outside Canada with my family in Toronto

fred3230

Member
Oct 8, 2019
11
1
Here is my situation :


  • I became PR on may 2013
  • I received my PR card on January 2014
  • I lived 2 years in Canada, from may 2013 to may 2015
  • For personal reason I came back in France with my wife and my 2 kids on may 2015. One of my kids is Canadian. My wife and my other kids are PR
  • In November 2017 we decided to go back in Canada definitively
  • I took a 4 months sabbatical leave in order to find a job in Canada but I didn’t find anything that fits what I was looking for so I came back in France but my wife and my kids stayed in Canada
  • In June 2018 I was in Canada for vacation and I decided to renew my PR card (expiring on January 2019). At this time I met the RO
  • Unfortunately my renewing is still in process and I can’t go back in Canada as my PR card has expired. I can’t apply for a PRTD as I don’t meet the RO anymore
  • My family (wife and kids) live in Canada and I’m stuck in France. My wife works in Canada and has a good situation.
  • My family will spend Christmas in France and I plan to go back in Canada with them
  • I know that I could try to enter through the US but I want to be honest with Canada, I don’t meet the RO and that 100% my fault

The question is : what are my options ? I saw my wife and my kids only 2 times this year so I can’t wait no much longer my PR card renewal. Should I go to the embassy and explained my situation ? I know that I have a chance to lose my PR status but the most important for me is to join my family in Canada. My wife meet the RO so she could sponsor me.


Thanks for any advice
 

fred3230

Member
Oct 8, 2019
11
1
Yes. CIC told me many times that my file was transferred in a local office with no more precision or delay. It’s insane
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
Here is my situation :


  • I became PR on may 2013
  • I received my PR card on January 2014
  • I lived 2 years in Canada, from may 2013 to may 2015
  • For personal reason I came back in France with my wife and my 2 kids on may 2015. One of my kids is Canadian. My wife and my other kids are PR
  • In November 2017 we decided to go back in Canada definitively
  • I took a 4 months sabbatical leave in order to find a job in Canada but I didn’t find anything that fits what I was looking for so I came back in France but my wife and my kids stayed in Canada
  • In June 2018 I was in Canada for vacation and I decided to renew my PR card (expiring on January 2019). At this time I met the RO
  • Unfortunately my renewing is still in process and I can’t go back in Canada as my PR card has expired. I can’t apply for a PRTD as I don’t meet the RO anymore
  • My family (wife and kids) live in Canada and I’m stuck in France. My wife works in Canada and has a good situation.
  • My family will spend Christmas in France and I plan to go back in Canada with them
  • I know that I could try to enter through the US but I want to be honest with Canada, I don’t meet the RO and that 100% my fault

The question is : what are my options ? I saw my wife and my kids only 2 times this year so I can’t wait no much longer my PR card renewal. Should I go to the embassy and explained my situation ? I know that I have a chance to lose my PR status but the most important for me is to join my family in Canada. My wife meet the RO so she could sponsor me.


Thanks for any advice
Note your fall back option: if you lose PR status (and it appears you may very well lose PR status), your spouse can sponsor you for PR again . . . of course your spouse will need to meet the eligibility requirements for sponsors, but for spousal sponsorship this is not onerous. Mostly needs to not be on public welfare (some social assistance is OK; others know better what the precise rules are).

Be aware that even if IRCC finally decides to issue a new PR card, and mails that to your family in Canada, who in turn send that to you abroad, YOU COULD STILL FACE A PR RESIDENCY OBLIGATION COMPLIANCE EXAMINATION WHEN YOU ARRIVE AT THE PoE INTO CANADA. A new PR card does NOT renew your PR status. (That is, even with a brand new PR card, if you are NOT in compliance with the RO when you arrive at a PoE, there is a real and substantial risk of being reported for inadmissibility and being issued a Departure Order.)

It is common for IRCC to hold up processing PR card applications when it appears the PR is staying abroad. While the internal machinations are not entirely clear, it appears IRCC often waits for the PR to return, or attempt to return to Canada, and see how that goes. Whether that involves an application for a PR Travel Document (regarding which, yes, there is an elevated RISK it will be denied, a decision that terminates your PR status but which can be appealed), or a PR RO compliance examination at a PoE upon your arrival in Canada (such as coming to Canada through a land border with the U.S.). Indeed, as others noted it is quite likely your PRC application is in Secondary Review, and it is further likely your GCMS is flagged to alert officials there may be a PR RO compliance issue IF and WHEN you apply for a PR TD or seek entry at a PoE.

There is nothing inherently deceptive, let alone wrong, about traveling to Canada via the U.S. As long as you are truthful and forthcoming in response to questions at the PoE, that is one of the ways things are designed to work. The advantages include (1) the chance the border officials will decide to NOT report you, which will give you an opportunity to stay and cure the breach of the RO, and (2) even if reported, you are allowed to enter Canada and you can appeal, and if you stay in Canada with your family pending an appeal that should significantly increase your odds of winning the appeal. And even if you lose the appeal, you and your spouse could then immediately commence an inland spousal sponsorship application which would allow you to continue staying in Canada (could be a gap during which it would be illegal to work, if anyone enforces it).

The latter depends on staying and settling PERMANENTLY in Canada. At this juncture there is little to be gained by trying to save your PR status UNLESS you are now or at least soon coming to Canada to stay.

Your scenario is actually a rather common one. Again, the fall back option, for when you are ready to come to Canada to stay, is to be sponsored for PR anew by your spouse.
 
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fred3230

Member
Oct 8, 2019
11
1
Thank you so much for your response, it is really clear. Really appreciated.

I plan to move definitely in Canada on January.

I’m going to apply for the PRDT this week. They will notice that I don’t meet the RO and they might start the process to revoke my PR status. I understand I can appeal.

During the revocation process, can I take a plane to Canada ? Or I have to enter through the US ? I plan to quit France with my kids on January 2020 (they will be in vacation in France) and I prefer take a direct flight.

Thanks for your valuable advice !
 

k.h.p.

VIP Member
Mar 1, 2019
8,801
2,250
Canada
If you are denied a PRTD you are not necessarily permitted to fly back to Canada, you may only get a limited permission to attend an appeal. Flying to the US and driving across the border at least means they cannot deny you entrance to the country.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
Thank you so much for your response, it is really clear. Really appreciated.

I plan to move definitely in Canada on January.

I’m going to apply for the PRDT this week. They will notice that I don’t meet the RO and they might start the process to revoke my PR status. I understand I can appeal.

During the revocation process, can I take a plane to Canada ? Or I have to enter through the US ? I plan to quit France with my kids on January 2020 (they will be in vacation in France) and I prefer take a direct flight.

Thanks for your valuable advice !
In regards to . . .
"I plan to move definitely in Canada on January.

I’m going to apply for the PRDT this week. They will notice that I don’t meet the RO and they might start the process to revoke my PR status. I understand I can appeal."​

Generally, as best I can, I steer from offering personal advice. With exceptions, such as suggesting approaches which are more or less obviously better.

This one is border line. But if you can travel via the U.S., and you are indeed planning to come to Canada this next January (in just over two months from now), to stay, it is probably better to NOT apply for a PR Travel Document . . . rather, to make the trip via the U.S.

I noted the advantages in my previous post; the chance of being allowed in without being Reported, after explaining your situation (honestly of course) and your intentions to now stay, is a big, big factor.

Additionally, it warrants observing, just the fact that you actually came to Canada intending to stay in Canada, can be a significant factor in the decision whether to allow you to keep PR status. This can influence the decision at the PoE, and influence the decision in the appeal (if necessary). We do not have hard statistics, but for a PR in basically the same circumstances, it appears the chances of relief (leniency) at the PoE are far better than the chances for being granted a PR TD.

As inconvenient as it might be to travel via the U.S. with your children, the fact you are accompanying family who are settled in Canada, especially a child who is a young Canadian citizen, could be the factor which tips the scales toward allowing you to enter Canada without being reported. That would be a big deal.

But another significant factor is that UNLESS you have been IN Canada within the previous year, you are NOT likely to be issued a special PR TD, so you would end up having to travel to Canada via the U.S. anyway (noting that if you do not come to Canada and stay pending an appeal, the odds of the appeal being successful go down dramatically).

Again, actually advising you to travel via the U.S., if possible, rather than applying for a PR TD, is something I ordinarily I do not do. I am not qualified to give personal advice. There are, undoubtedly, many facts and circumstances in your situation that may be relevant to your decision which I cannot possibly credibly weigh, and thus this is very much YOUR PERSONAL decision to make. But in general, the scales tend to tip rather distinctly toward coming via the U.S. rather than applying for a PR TD.

Final note: it would be different if there were more compelling H&C reasons justifying the delay in coming to Canada. A positive H&C decision in a PR TD application should lead to a relatively prompt issuance of a new PR card, which can make the logistics of living in Canada significantly simpler, easier. But the odds of being granted a PR TD seem rather dismal. This is not certain. Again, we have virtually no statistical information to rely on and thus must discern what we can from anecdotal reports in addition to what we can extrapolate from the published IAD decisions. But one salient indicator is that it appears very likely that the majority of PR RO cases seen in appeals derive far more often from denied PR TD applications than from 44(1) Reports issued at a PoE. There may be many explanations for this, but one of the more probable ones is that PR TD applications tend to be denied more than PRs are Reported at a PoE.
 
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fred3230

Member
Oct 8, 2019
11
1
Thanks again dpenabill ! My son, who is Canadian citizen, has been diagnosed with ASD. He receives a therapy in Toronto quite expensive. So we decided that I will move in Canada only when my wife get a job.

I just want to be honest, explain clearly my situation. As I plan to move in few weeks, enter via the US may be the best option. I have to think about it.

Thanks again for taking the time to give me advices !
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,663
13,544
Thanks again dpenabill ! My son, who is Canadian citizen, has been diagnosed with ASD. He receives a therapy in Toronto quite expensive. So we decided that I will move in Canada only when my wife get a job.

I just want to be honest, explain clearly my situation. As I plan to move in few weeks, enter via the US may be the best option. I have to think about it.

Thanks again for taking the time to give me advices !
Your previous post says your wife is working already.
 

fred3230

Member
Oct 8, 2019
11
1
Hi all, just a quick update as I crossed the border 30 minutes ago. Everything goes well, it was at 9 am a Sunday morning, I was alone. I crossed the bridge at Niagara Falls. When I arrived at PoE the agent asked me how many days I stayed in the US and if I had alcohol in my bag. And that’s it ! It took 15 seconds to cross the border. The agent didn’t ask me how long I was out of Canada. He didn’t say anything regarding my expired PR card. So maybe I was lucky but I wanted to share my experience with you. Thanks again for all yours advices !
 
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Copingwithlife

VIP Member
Jul 29, 2018
4,494
2,263
Earth
Hi all, just a quick update as I crossed the border 30 minutes ago. Everything goes well, it was at 9 am a Sunday morning, I was alone. I crossed the bridge at Niagara Falls. When I arrived at PoE the agent asked me how many days I stayed in the US and if I had alcohol in my bag. And that’s it ! It took 15 seconds to cross the border. The agent didn’t ask me how long I was out of Canada. He didn’t say anything regarding my expired PR card. So maybe I was lucky but I wanted to share my experience with you. Thanks again for all yours advices !
All that shows is that the CBSA was not doing his /her job, once again