PGP 2020

[nayr69sg]

https://fr.april-international.com/en/healthcare-expatriates/which-countries-have-best-healthcare-systems

http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian-health-care-information/world-health-organizations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/

Actually canada isn't too bad on the rankings list.

In any case they ranked UK the best. Really? It's NHS?

You go to any of these so called top ranked countries and talk to their people. They will tell you their health care is horrible for different reasons.

It is precisely because I am in health care and not only been exposed to the Canadian system but also the Singapore public and private systems that I can tell you I have a good understanding of the various wheels in healthcare.

In general the Singapore public system works because they under pay the doctors and nurses. Do you know that Singapore tries to keep nurses at diploma level and not graduates to keep wages low? Dirt low.

Also singapore has a bond system where they "subsidize" young medical students and bond them for 5 years. They pay pittance during those 5 years. Also Singapore readily accepts doctors from 3rd world countries to keep costs low as well.

Singapore has a two tier system so they have private health care as well which is what some people dream of in Canada. At your peril opening pandora's box.

Over charging. Selling hope instead of practicing proper medicine. Costs through the roof. Unscrupulous doctors. Patients dictating medicine. And then the jealousy. Second guessing. Suspicion. Patients who cannot afford private accusing doctors of not treating them because they have no money. And rich patients accusing doctors in private of being greedy and money minded which is why they are in private.

Loss of trust between patients and doctors.

Every test is questioned by patients. How much? Oh I cant pay for that. Doctor isnt going to pay for you either.

Oh then you go queue at the public hospital!

It is horrible! Your society will fracture. Rich get seen right away. Poor get thrown to the queue. Poor angry with rich.

Does Canada want that? I do not as a patient and as a doctor.

Health care is the one commodity that is best dealt with socialist.

A sick rich person and sick poor person with the same condition should be treated the same.

How we afford such a system is the problem. And it is about economics.

Canada can go the way of USA or Singapore. But I will guarantee that it will destroy our society.

 

[nayr69sg]

Just remember that in health care systems there is a spectrum of wait times.

Articles that have agenda will choose to focus on the worst or the best and compare according to how it makes the optics work for their message.

Not all doctors work as efficiently. Some are more some are less.

Some are more hardworking. Some are less.

Some can see 50 patients in a day. Some say that is too many. Some will say I can see 100 patients a day.

It is highly variable.

Which is why as a doctor working in healthcare I will tell you that you can find situations where you can have shorter wait times than reported.

Have you never experienced going to see the doctor and sometimes find a really good one and sometimes a bad one? We are not cut from the same cloth.

Get a good family doctor in Canada they can help you access specialist care faster and better.

It isn't going to be zero wait time but certainly not 3 years for a diagnostic colonoscopy. That is medical negligence.

 

[nayr69sg]

This whole talk about how elderly take up resources....

If your life expectancy is longer it is reflective of a good healthcare system.

But the longer you live and not die the more likely you get diseases like cancer and dementia.

For cancer I would say the universal system is good. We treat the cancer based on consensus. If it is worthwhile trying for a cure we do it. If not we recommend palliation. With private systems some doctors will say let's try this chemo. If we try there is a chance. If we dont then it is zero. So many hail mary type treatments. Waste of money and resources but as a child how do you live with the guilt of "not trying"?

With dementia places like Singapore have live in domestic maids who also double as care givers. $800 a month salary. They are not trained at all. Quality of care varies.

Cost is high in canada because there is minimum wage.

You cannot just look at things from one point of view.

Canada has many things right and I support it.

PGP is 10k a year. Yes is burdens the system but alone it does not break it.

If the Federal govt wants go continue with PGP then they should continue to support healthcare as well.

There is no use complaining. We do our part. If you dont like PGP then dont pretend to help immigrants sponsor parents here and then cough up all these statistics. Go talk to your MP and say please end PGP. Because I sure know no immigrant is going to say no to sponsoring their parents as long as there is PGP.

On the other hand if it became an election issue and enough Canadians said no to PGP I bet you it will end.

Just saying that they will have PGP to buy votes is ridiculous. Are there more immigrant votes than Canadian born citizen votes?

It just means Canadians aren't making themselves heard enough or more likely canadians are indifferent as they tend to be on many things related to finance and economy.

 

[nayr69sg]

https://ulinkassist.com/singapore-ranked-2nd-in-healthcare-outcomes-by-eiu/

Healthcare is not all about outcomes either

There is the soft touch. Compassion. How you treat patients as individuals. Communicate.

Hey you can have doctor say nothing to you and you just measure who lives who dies who gets complications. You want that? No.

Look at how Singapore media reports about Singapore healthcare

https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/spores-healthcare-system-best-value-and-satisfaction-falls-behind-providing-access-study

Lags in providing access! When it is the 2nd ranked most efficient in the world!

Like I said you cannot please everyone!

The media is the last place I would look at with regards to assessing health care.

You can find studies and statistics that will contradict each other.

 

[babybenz]

“PGP is very important for the good sound morale of the Immigrants (Citizens and PRs) who are already contributing to the Canadian Economy.”

Was replying to this comment. Many of the countries where people immigrate don’t have parent sponsorship programs yet people move there and not every person can sponsor their parents so I see no reason why PGP exists for morale of immigrants. Most immigrants move to Canada because the quality of life is better, free speech, education for their children,etc. Canada offers citizenship in 3 years so people don’t need to stay in Canada if PGP is the only thing keeping them going in Canada.

I shouldn't have forgotten another paragraph from you: "Many of the countries where people immigrate don't have parent sponsorship programs yet people move there and not every person can sponsor their parents..." Man... you're kicking hard for what?

Could I just take a moment to gently remind you that, this sub-forum is called "FAMILY-CLASS SPONSORSHIP - PARENTS/GRANDPARENTS" and it looks like you are in a wrong place!

We are NOT here to argue about Canadian healthcare, "Many other countries" healthcare (hell who care?); Burden on healthcare; Liberal party; Conservative party; Free speech; Wait time for replacement of your jaws, or who the hell care about economical benefits to Canada, etc... all that kind of stuff! Do you really get it?

We are in this sub-forum for the information that help us to sponsor our parents/grandparents to come to Canada legally and successfully

Please think about it, if you have burning "kick-ass" ideas to tackle the public wellness and/or "many other countries" problem of not accepting parents sponsorship, please take your arguments to an appropriate sub-forum (there are many in here, many more on the Internet) and fight your ways out there with other people who already have their parents/grandparents sponsored!!! LOL

So please, if you still possess a speck of an awakening-intellectual-property, could you please select a correct sub-forum to even start with, before allowing a word (or any word for that matter) coming out of your output channel(s)? I am not sure about a lot of other "Express of Interest" people in this sub-forum but for sure I, would very dearly, respectfully, fondly, happily and kindly appreciate your thoughtfulness and resourcefulness toward to Family Class Sponsorship/Parents and Grandparents

God bless you
Amen!

 

[Dainik]

Just a shot in the dark , but they probably don’t help the situation

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5271281

https://torontosun.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-canadas-medical-wait-times-are-unacceptable/amp

https://ipolitics.ca/2019/11/28/emergency-department-wait-times-on-the-rise-in-canada-cihi-data/

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/categories/health-care-wait-times

.....but maybe , just maybe all the above news reports on medical wait times was just all fake news, if that’s the case let’s bring in more and more , hell , let’s not even have a cap , 100k applied, let’s approve all 100k
Good grief

Yeah! That's a good idea. Approve all 100k and make everyone happy.

 

[Dainik]

You work in healthcare. You know this system is beyond it’s capacity. If you don’t you should get more involved in healthcare in your area and the country. Yes seniors are a burden on the healthcare system. That is a fact. Well proven that in general you spend the most money on healthcare in the last 3 years of life. When people get old they tend to get sick. Things wear out in their bodies and they need new joints, pacemakers, etc. Canada’s ageing demographic is also a fact. Most parents arriving through PGP will never pay taxes. The financial responsibility clause was implemented because most parents claimed welfare on arrival. When it was raised to 10 years it still happened at 10 years so the federal government raised it to 20 years. I have no doubt that the parents who arrived through PGP will still claim OAS and GIC when they can. No economist would ever say this program is not a burden. The program is looked at as primarily a compassionate program. There may be slight increase of productivity for ,primarily women, if parents are able to provide some childcare and some parents are able to go back to work but that is a very small benefit to the overall economy. There is certainly a personal benefit for the families selected. Simple economics. Nothing personal. Countries do have to make decision primarily on economics plus a mixture of a whole lot of things. If bringing parents to many countries wasn’t a burden why wouldn’t all of them allow it? Yes I am concerned about the families currently waiting for a doctor, waiting for an operation or waiting for longterm care. I would like to prevent the situation from getting worse because it is looking pretty bleak if you ask anyone working in healthcare or the ministry of health.

You are in the wrong forum bud.

 

[screech339]

again.....you would prefer PGP canceled altogether. It is not good for Canada at all in your eyes.

Correct?

Knock it off repeating the same "You want PGP cancelled" mantra over and over to Canuck78. It's getting tiring. It is a compassionate program. It is not a venue that every immigrants have a right to bring their parents / grandparents over. Immigrants chose to immigrate to Canada usually for better life than the life they left behind. Otherwise why did they come to Canada in the first place?

Canuck78 is giving advice on PGP because people asked for advice on this forum. Whatever opinion canuck has on PGP has no bearing on the advice he is giving. His opinion on PGP that it can be a drain on health care is no different from somebody who says high taxes / regulations is a drain on Canada's economy. Does it means according to you, taxes should be removed completely like PGP? No. Lowering taxes / regulations would boost economy much like lowering number of PGP cap would alleviate their impact on health care.

 

[nayr69sg]

Knock it off repeating the same "You want PGP cancelled" mantra over and over to Canuck78. It's getting tiring. It is a compassionate program. It is not a venue that every immigrants have a right to bring their parents / grandparents over. Immigrants chose to immigrate to Canada usually for better life than the life they left behind. Otherwise why did they come to Canada in the first place?

Canuck78 is giving advice on PGP because people asked for advice on this forum. Whatever opinion canuck has on PGP has no bearing on the advice he is giving. His opinion on PGP that it can be a drain on health care is no different from somebody who says high taxes / regulations is a drain on Canada's economy. Does it means according to you, taxes should be removed completely like PGP? No. Lowering taxes / regulations would boost economy much like lowering number of PGP cap would alleviate their impact on health care.

If you refer to @canuck78 as a he and his. You haven't followed her posts enough.

I dont bitch about high taxes.

I also disagree that Canada's health care system is in the doldrums. It is not. In fact it is ranked among some of the worlds best. Will it be burdened because of PGP. Yes it would. To what extent? It depends.

This forum is about immigration and the PGP. NOT about healthcare.

The only reason why discussions keep going in that direction is because @canuck78 takes it upon herself to constantly remind us about it

Want me to knock it off repeating the same? Then ask @canuck78 to knock it off too.

I am no hypocrite. You dont say one thing and do the other. It is like the doctor who is pro life attends rallies and tells people how wrong it is to terminate pregnancies and then performs abortions every day herself. And then she complains that there are too many abortions in Canada. No bearing? Really ?

 

[screech339]

If you refer to @canuck78 as a he and his. You haven't followed her posts enough.

I dont bitch about high taxes.

I also disagree that Canada's health care system is in the doldrums. It is not.

This forum is about immigration and the PGP. NOT about healthcare.

The only reason why discussions keep going in that direction is because @canuck78 takes it upon herself to constantly remind us about it

Want me to knock it off repeating the same? Then ask @canuck78 to knock it off too.

I am no hypocrite. You dont say one thing and do the other. It is like the doctor who is pro life attends rallies and tells people how wrong it is to terminate pregnancies and then performs abortions every day herself. No bearing? Really ?

Guess you never heard or seen hallway medicine in hospitals then. If healthcare was not in trouble why did the liberal government introduced health care premium tax to Ontario. They wouldn't need it, if health care had it so good. Canuck78 is not wrong about Canada's health care situation. If Canada healthcare is so good why is health care in Europe vastly superior to ours in terms of care quality and expenses. Personally myself I would like Canada to emulate European's medical care model, a mix of public / private care. When you have a system whereby no one has to pay for medical care, it is so easy for people to abuse the system.

As for my opinion, I rather swap PGP for sibling sponsorship. At least the siblings can at least contribute to the tax / social system by working. We all know the vast majority of parents / grandparents will not be able to work and pay taxes in Canada. Anyone believing that PGP parents / grandparents are paying income taxes are seriously kidding themselves.

 

[parvisingh]

Just in this time of the year people get so concerned about the "Canadian healthcare". I wish I could tell Canadians to look out of the box and go to my home country to get treated. Quicker, cheaper and sometimes life-saving. People will happily treat them there at a fraction of cost USA will charge them.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/if-i-were-still-in-b-c-i-would-be-dead-canadian-man-saved-by-liver-transplant-in-hong-kong

 

[nayr69sg]

Guess you never heard or seen hallway treatments in hospitals then. If healthcare was not in trouble why did the liberal government introduced health care premium tax to Ontario. They wouldn't need it, if health care had it so good. Canuck78 is not wrong about Canada's health care situation. If Canada healthcare is so good why is health care in Europe vastly superior to ours in terms of care quality and expenses. Personally myself I would like Canada to emulate European's medical care model, a mix of public / private care.

As for my opinion, I rather swap PGP for sibling sponsorship. At least the siblings can at least contribute to the tax / social system by working.

There will always be room for improvement for healthcare anywhere.

As I have tried to explain even the most efficient systems with the best outcomes and the lowest cost system have detractors.

Ask the people in those countries and they will tell you how unhappy they are too. Spend more on healthcare then. Hire cheaper doctors. Increase the number of beds.

$$$$$.

This is not the forum to discuss healthcare. Let's stop hijacking the topic. @screech339 did you come here to discuss healthcare too?

 

[screech339]

There will always be room for improvement for healthcare anywhere.

As I have tried to explain even the most efficient systems with the best outcomes and the lowest cost system have detractors.

Ask the people in those countries and they will tell you how unhappy they are too. Spend more on healthcare then. Hire cheaper doctors. Increase the number of beds.

$$$$$.

This is not the forum to discuss healthcare. Let's stop hijacking the topic. @screech339 did you come here to discuss healthcare too?

We have been trying to improve the system for years with no improvement. Throwing more money won't fix it. As long as people don't pay for care people will abuse it. If user fees were allowed, ER would not be overcrowded with non-life threatening sick patients that a doctor at clinic can look at. The constitution needs to be changed to allow private care. Unless the constitution is changed, our health care will never get fixed.

A lot of people outside this forum on the social media have all believed that PGP can be a drain on healthcare. Are you saying all the people of social media are all wrong? There is a element of truth to their arguments against PGP.

Yes this is a forum about PGP, but putting blinders on without seeing / understanding the impact of PGP, not only the good impact but also the negative impact it has on Canada. Only see the "good impact" only without acknowledging the negative impact it has is wilful ignorance on your part.

 

[parvisingh]

Healthcare is rigged with crooks. Have you heard about the access to information filed by Toronto Star in 2014 to the Ministry of Health to find out the major billing physicians? The Ontario Medical Association fought hard on this to fight tooth and nail to not have this information disclosed to the public. The OMA lost in various court of appeals and the information was available only in 2019. OMA said "general public will not be able to understand that the amount billed by the physicians is not their take home income" and that they be exempted from getting their information disclosed in public. Secondly, if OMA will decide who gets the licence to practice etc. in Ontario then they will do everything to limit their doctors so as to extort any money they want from the government.

If we will have to wait for the Canadian healthcare system to get fixed first before getting Parents and Grandparents from abroad then sorry to say they will never come here. BTW, for people that are earning this much that they can meet LICO and I can say about my home country India if my parents or grandparents are given 6-8 months waiting for something I will send my loved ones home to get treated. Another "life long time tax payer Canadian" can take the bed that my loved ones may have taken up. My interest to bring my parents here is not to get free healthcare but to unite with them.

 

[screech339]

Healthcare is rigged with crooks. Have you heard about the access to information filed by Toronto Star in 2014 to the Ministry of Health to find out the major billing physicians? The Ontario Medical Association fought hard on this to fight tooth and nail to not have this information disclosed to the public. The OMA lost in various court of appeals and the information was available only in 2019. OMA said "general public will not be able to understand that the amount billed by the physicians is not their take home income" and that they be exempted from getting their information disclosed in public. Secondly, if OMA will decide who gets the licence to practice etc. in Ontario then they will do everything to limit their doctors so as to extort any money they want from the government.

If we will have to wait for the Canadian healthcare system to get fixed first before getting Parents and Grandparents from abroad then sorry to say they will never come here. BTW, for people that are earning this much that they can meet LICO and I can say about my home country India if my parents or grandparents are given 6-8 months waiting for something I will send my loved ones home to get treated. Another "life long time tax payer Canadian" can take the bed that my loved ones may have taken up. My interest to bring my parents here is not to get free healthcare but to unite with them.

I agree with you. Both patients and doctors both have abused the system. Patients are not the only ones but there are a lot more patients than there are doctors. While I don't excuse the doctors for abusing it, however their numbers are far far fewer of them than patients abusing it.