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Counting in days as a visitor pre-PR

RainbowRaccoon

Full Member
Mar 19, 2015
21
0
Hi everyone,

My wife was first a visitor (no visa needed) and then she extended her visitor status twice before becoming PR. I need help interpreting the following to calculate eligibility for citizenship application:

"Temporary resident status includes lawful authorization to enter or remain in Canada as a:

  • visitor,
  • student,
  • worker or,
  • temporary resident permit holder"
Do we count all the days she was a visitor or just the 2 extended periods?

Might be a silly question, but would rather clarify it with here.

TIA
 

Bs65

VIP Member
Mar 22, 2016
13,187
2,420
All days she was a legal visitor in Canada including extensions prior to becoming PR.

So for every complete day as a visitor pre PR within the 5 year application window can claim one half day to a max 1 year credit.

The key thing being only days pre and post PR can be claimed in the 5 years back from the application date, all days must be of course physical presence in Canada.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,437
3,183
My wife was first a visitor (no visa needed) and then she extended her visitor status twice before becoming PR. I need help interpreting the following to calculate eligibility for citizenship application:
I concur in the observations by @Bs65, in particular that so long as the individual has status to be in Canada and the days actually present in Canada are within the five year eligibility period, they count . . . half-day credit for those prior to day of landing and becoming a PR.

And I concur that DOCUMENTED visitor STATUS counts.

There is, however, MORE TO CONSIDER IN DECIDING WHEN IS THE RIGHT TIME TO APPLY. Especially if the prospective applicant aims to submit an application less likely to bump into delays or non-routine processing.

THUS, the longer explanation:

Be aware of the differences between:
-- days technically eligible for credit (days physically present and with status)
-- days readily recognized as during period applicant had status (documented status)
-- days readily recognized as days present in Canada
-- days readily PROVEN as days present in Canada​

And, take the above into consideration in assessing differences between:
-- technically meeting the presence requirement
-- proving the presence requirement has been met (if there is a need to do this)
-- submitting an application which is less likely to encounter questions or concerns about meeting the presence requirement (avoiding queries about let alone the need to overtly prove presence)​

There is a tendency to make the decision about when to apply based on reaching the threshold counting those days the prospective applicant is technically eligible for credit (days physically present and with status). Technically that works. And that USUALLY works UNLESS there is something about the applicant or application triggering non-routine processing.

HOWEVER, many times waiting longer to apply can mean actually taking the oath and becoming a citizen happens SOONER . . . that is, the actual date one becomes a citizen can be sooner by waiting to apply later. Really.

This forum is rife with tales of delayed processing (and more than a little whining to accompany those tales). Most tend to blame IRCC. My impression is that scores of those bogged down with slowly-progressing applications are those who made the decision about when to apply based on when they reached the threshold counting those days the prospective applicant is technically eligible for credit.

It warrants recognizing that there is NO way to guarantee the application will enjoy smooth, fast sailing, NO way to guarantee avoiding delays, non-routine processing, or even RQ-related processing.

IN CONTRAST, however, the best chance for smooth, fast sailing is to make a conscientious effort to submit an application which is less likely to encounter questions or concerns about meeting the presence requirement, thus taking into consideration the factors and distinctions I outline above.

For a prospective applicant relying on pre-PR credit, for example, it is better to rely on a calculation of days for which the individual has ACTUAL DOCUMENTATION of STATUS. If the individual has actual documentation (visa, permit, or Visitor Record, or such), IRCC's records should readily show the individual's status for that period of time.

Sure, a visa-exempt visitor waived into Canada TECHNICALLY is entitled to credit for those days. Similarly, a temporary resident with IMPLIED status for part of their pre-PR presence is TECHNICALLY is entitled to credit for those days. BUT if IRCC does not readily connect the client/applicant to status for a period of time, that is likely to trigger the need for additional inquiries, leading to non-routine processing AND DELAYS.

The applicant can and should include all such days in the calculation itself. They do count. The calculation should be an accurate accounting of all days actually in Canada. However, not relying on undocumented days for when to apply, for example, makes for building a good buffer and significantly improves the odds IRCC will not have concerns.

Thus, for example, if a person was waived into Canada as a visitor without specifically documenting status and entry date (without a Visitor Record for example), and less than six months later applied for an extension and then obtained a Visitor Record: waiting an additional three months to apply for citizenship overrides any doubt or concern about credit for that period prior to obtaining a VR. And there are good odds this can make the difference between a timeline (application-to-oath) of six or eight months, versus 11 to 14 months. No guarantees of course. BUT at the same time the applicant has the additional buffer, some insurance, just in case the application runs into more serious issues. Waiting is the good bet.

All that said, for the applicant who is the spouse of a long-term settled in Canada citizen of Canada, that is a very strong residential tie tending to solidly support the applicant's calculation of presence. Usually, but not always, such applicants have a more solid case on its face than, say, others relying on visitor days. Waiting to rely on well-documented days will still buy some insurance, and again is still the good bet.


(Note: there are of course additional factors related to the other distinctions identified, which would loom larger in other situations. A single applicant with no immediate family in Canada, for example, may want to focus (primarily rely) on days in Canada while employed full time (or at least attending school or engaged in some other readily documented activity) in calculating how long to wait to apply past the date he or she meets the technical threshold for qualifying.)
 

basstuk

Star Member
Jan 27, 2014
52
0
Sorry for my unknowledge. My wife come to Canada for a month as a tourist (from Portugal, no needed any visa) before She got her Work Permit. She only got a stamp in her passport.

Is tourist equal to visitor?
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,437
3,183
Sorry for my unknowledge. My wife come to Canada for a month as a tourist (from Portugal, no needed any visa) before She got her Work Permit. She only got a stamp in her passport.

Is tourist equal to visitor?
Yes.

But it would be prudent to review my previous long answer . . . and, in particular, to include those days in the calculation BUT be sure to have enough days over the minimum that they are PART of a buffer (better to have at least that number of days as a buffer over the minimum PLUS some additional buffer).

Again: the actual date one becomes a citizen can be sooner by waiting to apply later. Really.
 

basstuk

Star Member
Jan 27, 2014
52
0
Yes.

But it would be prudent to review my previous long answer . . . and, in particular, to include those days in the calculation BUT be sure to have enough days over the minimum that they are PART of a buffer (better to have at least that number of days as a buffer over the minimum PLUS some additional buffer).

Again: the actual date one becomes a citizen can be sooner by waiting to apply later. Really.
thank you very much
 

sajjad365

Member
Jan 21, 2015
14
0
Hi, my wife was is in a similar situation. She was a visitor before we got married and applied for an extension (TRV?) twice. I have one of the Visitor Records but cannot find the other. She never left Canada prior to getting her PR.

Do we simply put one record i.e. Visitor from the time she entered until PR, or do we document Visitor + the two extensions separately?

She has more than enough buffer. Many thanks!!
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,437
3,183
Hi, my wife was is in a similar situation. She was a visitor before we got married and applied for an extension (TRV?) twice. I have one of the Visitor Records but cannot find the other. She never left Canada prior to getting her PR.

Do we simply put one record i.e. Visitor from the time she entered until PR, or do we document Visitor + the two extensions separately?

She has more than enough buffer. Many thanks!!
While your partner's situation differs in detail from the above discussion, the main observations are largely the same. Take the time, make the effort, to read previous posts above.

I cannot tell you or your partner what to do in applying or WHEN to apply. And generally anyone who offers to do so probably should not be trusted or at least not relied on without independently determining what the best course of action is for oneself.

I can offer that the approach I described above should be safe, at least safe in terms of (1) the application passing the completeness check and thus processed, and (2) a sufficient showing that the actual physical presence requirement was met. (Assuming, of course, complete and accurate information is entered into the application and presence calculation, and the latter shows the presence requirement to be met with enough margin to FULLY cover any period for which status was not formally documented.)


For a prospective applicant relying on pre-PR credit, for example, it is better to rely on a calculation of days for which the individual has ACTUAL DOCUMENTATION of STATUS. If the individual has actual documentation (visa, permit, or Visitor Record, or such), IRCC's records should readily show the individual's status for that period of time.

. . . include those days [all days actually in Canada pursuant to legal status, including those for which there was NOT any formally documented grant of status] in the calculation BUT be sure to have enough days over the minimum that [days not covered by formally documented grants of status] . . . are PART of a buffer (better to have at least that number of days as a buffer over the minimum PLUS some additional buffer).
This does not answer the question about how to populate the chart in response to item 9.b. in the application; per the new form available since last month: CIT 0002 (06-2019) E . . . although I will further offer that my reading of the help provided in 9.b. suggests the applicant enter the first date of visitor status and the date that "ended" (not expired, but "ended," even though the chart itself uses the word "expired"), which would be the date the applicant became a PR UNLESS it ended earlier (such as a VR expiring without application for an extension . . . which is what I did, technically spending some days in Canada without status before I did a flag pole landing). And of course populate information in the online presence calculation accordingly, consistently, with the information posted in item 9.b.

THE TRICK, however, is to apply so that it does NOT matter if IRCC's records do not document some of this period of time. (That is, to have a margin bigger than any period of time that IRCC's records might not document.)

That said, any time covered by a formal Visitor's Record should be OK (IRCC's records should readily show the individual as having status during that time). Personally I would wait a very solid margin more than that, but that is largely about my personal risk avoidance preference (I personally waited so long that not even all my time in Canada after becoming a PR was within the relevant time period, now called the "eligibility period," but in significant part that had to do with other personal factors elevating my risk of RQ, which I was hoping to avoid and did avoid).


REMINDERS:

For pre-PR credit there is a big difference between dates the Foreign National was in Canada visiting but without any formal documentation of entry with status, and days visiting for which CBSA or IRCC formally documented status . . . which amounts to Temporary Resident Status.

TECHNICALLY BOTH SHOULD COUNT. PRACTICALLY, HOWEVER, WITHOUT A FORMALLY DOCUMENTED GRANT OF TEMPORARY RESIDENT STATUS, PROOF OF PRESENCE WITH STATUS CAN BE AN ISSUE. (And it seems quite likely to be an issue if meeting the requirement depends on it.)

But proof in this context is NOT so much about what proof the applicant has of status, and, rather, is mostly about what is of record in the client's GCMS records. Thus, for example, if you KNOW the dates the first Visitors Record was issued and expired, even if you personally do not have that document it is almost certainly of record in your partner's GCMS records, so there should NOT be a problem getting credit for it (so far as we know . . . recognizing there is often a gap between what many of might infer or conclude SHOULD be how things work, and how IRCC interprets and applies things).

FINAL NOTE: Ultimately WHEN to apply is a personal choice. Waiting longer is more about making total stranger bureaucrats comfortable approving the application to move from step to the next step without concerns about meeting the presence requirement. Many approach WHEN to apply based on what meets the qualification requirements. That works. But that does not necessarily mean smooth sailing. Of course waiting longer does NOT guarantee smooth sailing or a fast processing timeline. But it can improve the odds considerably.