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nofrills

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We call murderers criminals. Tax evaders and speeders also get jail time if deemed serious enough. What do you want people to call illegal border crossers? Like undocumented immigrants? That'll make you happy, right?
ZingyDNA - If you want to discuss this then fine, but let's keep it civil and this isn't about me and what makes me happy - i'm just stating a different opinion to yours and actually it is not one that was made up by me and it is shared by others. But I'll bite:

This needs to be considered in the context of the thread - random replies stating that people wanting to seek asylum need to follow the law and that their actions are illegal are fine and they make sense. But the way the term illegal refugees is being use in this conversation needs context, here:

This thread is about people's applications taking longer than we all want and creating frustration - I think we all agree on that.

The conversation then turns into refugees and the problems they are creating with this process.

Except that in this case, refugees aren't having a bearing on our applications. Why? Because two key things are ignored 1) Bill C-6 triggered a deluge of citizenship applications which went up five times in October 2017 and continued through the year it seems, but more importantly 2) they are not even processed by the IRCC.

Now the way this discussion was triggered is that the "fake illegal" refugees should ultimately be waiting their turn- rather than the above being pointed out and that these people are ineligible applicants and are not refugees.

To me, even if it is not being purposefully used in a way that is meant to denigrate refugees as a whole (for you, I don't think you are using it purposefully in this way, but I think others do) than I believe it is a loaded term.
 

nofrills

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Don’t waste your time, you will just invite more irritating nonsense from that guy, I gave up already lol
From now on just don’t call that illegal, think of a different one that would sound good, for example, stealing should be called “unauthorized withdrawal “, murder should be called “life removal procedure “, human smuggling should be called “low budget transit”, if you call them anything else you are racist and bigot
I'm sorry that you find opinions irritating because they don't agree with you - good luck with that.
 

nofrills

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Not sure you are aware of this information which is sourced from a CBC article and quoting the minister

"Asylum seekers are processed in a separate queue at the IRB and all the other regular immigration programs are processed by IRCC
Our delay is due to the additional load that resulted from C-6 not because of refugees. I'm also frustrated by non genuine asylum seekers who casually cross over in a day and get PR while I had to wait 4 years to immigrate here.
Thank you - this is an inconvenient truth for some it seems.
 

screech339

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Thank you - this is an inconvenient truth for some it seems.
Are you for 100% certain that even though IRB and IRCC are both under Federal Jurisdiction, that the Fed absolutely 100% won't divert resources from IRCC to IRB to resolve refugees? We have seen this done in the past. I would be very naïve to believe that the Fed won't move resources to IRB to get this problem to go away before election. They already made up a new never before "Border Security Ministry" to deal with "Irregular" refugees. They know it is an issue that can affect their chances of re-election, so they are trying to make it look like that are dealing with it. If they really dealt with it in the first place, there wouldn't be any need for a new "Border Security Minister" at all. Now the Border Security Ministry is pretty much the middle man between IRCC (border enforcement, along with other related responsiblities) and IRB (refugees).
 
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nofrills

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Are you for 100% certain that even though IRB and IRCC are both under Federal Jurisdiction, that the Fed absolutely 100% won't divert resources from IRCC to IRB to resolve refugees?
Well, nobody can say with any certainty what the government will or will not do, it's speculation - but I will give you that it is possible that the feds will want to demonstrate their willingness to make changes following the removal of the backlog of influx of citizenship applications, or prior to the election for political purposes.

But given it is a hypothetical and hasn't happened yet, it is a moot point as it relates to citizenship applications currently in process. Hopefully you will have the chance to vote at the ballot to express your democratic right at that point.


If they really dealt with it in the first place, there wouldn't be any need for a new "Border Security Minister" at all.
Let me guess, it's that tweet and nothing else that generated the large number of refugees.. huh, for a second I thought you were leaving the partisan politics out of it ;-)
 

screech339

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Let me guess, it's that tweet and nothing else that generated the large number of refugees.. huh, for a second I thought you were leaving the partisan politics out of it ;-)
Are you saying it is just purely 100% a coincidence that the surge of illegal refugees jumped up after Justin's tweet? I think NOT. It is called cause and effect. If Justin never tweeted any "welcome to Canada", the surge of refugees would never occurred. It may jumped a little but not to the point of numbers we are having now. This is because Justin's tweet has been passed around by the thousands to others.
 

nofrills

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C'mon screech - we are going in circles here - either way, it has no bearing on applications today.
 

screech339

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C'mon screech - we are going in circles here - either way, it has no bearing on applications today.
Yes, we are going in circles until you admit that Trudeau's tweet has cause the surge of "illegal" immigrants coming in whether they are bonafide or fake refugees.
 

dpenabill

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The repeated MISINFORMATION cited to justify erroneously and derisively labeling asylum seekers "illegals" illustrates the malicious intent with which this label is employed. The thing about bigotry is it tends to be as obvious as it is odious.

NOT one person posting here has so much as hinted let alone cited which law it is the asylum seekers have allegedly violated. They can't because the asylum seekers are NOT in fact illegally in Canada. Again, this is NOT the U.S.

(Yeah, the U.S., as S*hole countries are wont to do, has criminalized all sorts mere regulatory breaches, including the mere act of entering that country in pursuit of asylum; it is the kind of place where many states still have laws which prescribe crimes punishable by years of imprisonment for engaging in sexual acts with a member of the same sex, which for now cannot be enforced due to a 2003 U.S. Supreme Court ruling (Lawrence v Texas) that such laws are unconstitutional, which is among many rulings very much at risk going forward with recent changes to that Court, and indeed numerous states continue to carry these crimes on their books, ready to enforce when Alito, Thomas, Gorsuch, and their new comrade (probably Kavanaugh) nudge Roberts to concur in turning back the clock; as their orange buffoon-in-chief is wont to say, "we'll see what happens.")

Not only have the vast, vast majority of asylum seekers in Canada, that is refugee claimants, fully complied with the legal requirements to make their claims, as I have repeated (and no one has cited any actual authority otherwise), NO MATTER THE MEANS for which a person seeking asylum in Canada has arrived in Canada, the fact they have duly made an application for asylum, that is for refugee status, means THEY ARE NOT ILLEGALLY in Canada. This is the law. (Again, this is NOT the U.S.) They are NOT ILLEGALS.

Moreover, they are specifically excluded from being prosecuted for any border crossing violations. The OPPOSITE of the situation in the U.S.

Let's be clear: THERE IS NO Canadian statute particularly prescribing a violation of law for stepping across the border without going through a PoE. Not in the Criminal Code. Not in the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.

There is a statute prescribing a generic "offence" for contravening any provision of IRPA for which a penalty is not specifically provided (Section 124(1) IRPA), which includes the failure to comply with a condition or obligation. While on its face this may be interpreted by non-jurists rather broadly, it should be noted, for example, it is NOT an offence for a PR to breach the Residency Obligation and indeed there are many conditions and obligations which are in the vein of prescribing eligibility for obtaining or continuing status, for which a failure to comply does NOT constitute an offence under Section 124(1) even though a layperson might, erroneously applying common usage of terms, think Subsection 124(1) makes them an offence.

There is, however, NO NEED to speculate or interpret whether a person crossing the border to seek asylum is guilty of an offence for even the most broad interpretation of Section 124(1) since, in fact, to make sure there is no confusion about this, it is EXPLICITLY prescribed by statute that this provision is NOT to be enforced against persons who make a refugee claim. This is in Section 133 IRPA which explicitly excludes from any enforcement of this provision those who make a claim for refugee protection, "and who came to Canada directly or indirectly" (emphasis added) to Canada (thus specifically including those who have transited the U.S. and arrived in Canada from the U.S.). See http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/page-23.html#docCont

Thus, even assuming that the Canadian government interprets crossing the border outside properly seeking entry at a PoE to be an act in contravention of Section 18(1) IRPA (http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/page-5.html#docCont) which is subject to prosecution as an offence under Section 124(1), those persons who are making a refugee claim CANNOT be so prosecuted. Their presence in Canada is explicitly, as a matter of law, LEGAL. NOT ILLEGAL.

In contrast, there are indeed more than a few PRs who periodically look for ways to slip into Canada undetected or otherwise concealing their status as a PR, because they are in breach of the PR Residency Obligation and want to avoid being the subject of a 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility.

See, for example, a topic in the PR Obligations conference here titled "Entering Canada via Hot air balloon ?"
The whole question about the balloon travelling was in order to avoid to be reported because of the breach of RO.
Obviously the particular means of getting into Canada entertained in that topic is hyperbolic, but it is just one among scores of topics in which queries about how to skirt enforcement of the PR RO, or to otherwise evade examination, are posed with minimal restraint.



"What do you want people to call illegal border crossers?"

Assuming there is such a thing as an "illegal border crosser" (assuming Subsection 124(1) IRPA applies to make an act contrary to Subsection 18(1) IRPA "illegal"), generally people should be referred to by their name.

While PRs and some FNs may indeed be illegal border crossers (again, assuming Subsection 124(1) IRPA applies to make an act contrary to Subsection 18(1) IRPA "illegal"), subject to prosecution for their "illegal" act, persons with a refugee claim in process are specifically EXCLUDED from this group.

Otherwise . . . sure, we commonly use labels to reference certain groups of people, referring to PRs applying for citizenship as "applicants" for example, or more specifically if not otherwise clear in context, "citizenship applicants." Such labels are useful groupings to facilitate discussions particularly relevant to this group of individuals and matters related to them as a group, the label allowing discussion or debate about those matters specifically applicable to this group, the label aptly applying to all members of the relevant grouping, and the label is NOT employed to denigrate or disparage a class of persons.

We are all well familiar with labels used derisively. Such labels are NOT used to advance our understanding or expand our knowledge or to otherwise facilitate a discussion. This is particularly common when certain persons deliberately employ a term to cast aspersions on a class of people.

Recognizing that the labeling of "illegal border crossers" as illegals has NOTHING in particular to do with which class of immigration a person has applied or qualified for, particularly since numerically it is apparent that many more PRs and FNs other than asylum seekers have evaded or skirted or otherwise acted in contravention of not only Section 18(1) IRPA but other border examination requirements as well, it is abundantly clear that using "illegals" to specially label asylum seekers is intended to denigrate, to demean and deride, NOT to use the term as a means of facilitating discussion about asylum seekers but rather to put them down. That is, as previously observed, the DEFINITION of BIGOTRY, and as previously observed should be confronted for what it is.

In the meantime, there are indeed many labels which can be used which are not derogatory (except perhaps to Americans who associate any refugee with being an undesirable) which apply to all those making refugee claims, and which readily suffice for facilitating discussion about matters related to them, be that "asylum seekers," "refugee claimants," "applicants for protected person status," or simply "refugees."

Again, this is NOT the U.S. Discussions about refugee class immigrants can be and should be approached with some basic common decency and respect for other people, without the use of labels which are not only essentially offensive but which (like the use of "illegals" being advocated here) intended to demean and deride.
 

dpenabill

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Regarding Additional Misinformation In Efforts to Justify Expressions of Bigotry:


The assertion that a FN or a PR arriving at a PoE "without a valid passport and visa or PR card" would be turned back for "attempting to enter illegally" is blatantly NOT true. Utter misinformation. And typical of the dissembling employed by those trying to excuse or justify their deliberately labeling people to denigrate them as a class (which again should be confronted for what it is: at the least bigotry).

To be clear, non-Canadians (FNs) who do not have documentation sufficiently showing authorization to enter Canada face being "turned back" at a PoE because they do not establish their authorization to enter Canada. No "illegality" in play. Entry is denied for lack of establishing authorization to enter. (Also recognizing that in various circumstances a traveler can request, upon arrival at a PoE, and in many situations then be issued authorization to enter Canada; also note, in particular, Section 23 IRPA allows officers to authorize entry for the purpose of further examination. And of course visa-exempt travelers do NOT need to present either a visa or PR card to request and be allowed entry when arriving by private transportation. Remember too there is a difference between authorization to enter Canada, which the vast majority of visa-exempt passport holders automatically have, and actual permission to enter, which for all FNs is a discretionary decision made by CBSA at the PoE . . . scores of FNs with authorization to enter Canada are denied actual entry for a wide range of reasons, no illegality necessary. To be clear, BOTH authorization to enter and actual permission to enter are required.)

Canadians (including PRs) do NOT need any particular documents upon arrival at a PoE. It is NOT illegal for a Canadian to show up at the border seeking entry to Canada without any documentation at all, let alone to show up "without a valid passport and visa or PR card." In contrast, if a PoE CBSA officer determines the traveler is a Canadian, be that a Canadian citizen or a Canadian PR, the traveler MUST BE ALLOWED ENTRY. For Canadians who are a citizen, entry is guaranteed by the Charter of Rights and also specifically prescribed in Subsection 19(1) IRPA (see http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/page-5.html#h-17). For Canadians who are a PR, entry is a statutory privilege or entitlement, and also specifically prescribed in Subsection 19(2) IRPA. No particular documentation required. Of course just claiming to be a Canadian does not prove one is a Canadian. So it would be foolish for a Canadian to arrive at the PoE without some evidence of identity (generally proof of identity will suffice, at the least after some inquiries are made to verify the individual's identity and status as a Canadian), that is if he or she is expecting to proceed timely without encountering a long delay while identity and status are determined.


It is rather remarkable the extent to which some will outright lie to excuse using an unjustified label which is so obviously intended to cast aspersions on a class of people. It is what it is. Denials do not change what it is. How common the usage is does not so much as mitigate let alone excuse it for what it is.

Again, this is NOT the U.S. Discussions about refugee class immigrants can be and should be approached with some basic common decency and respect for other people, without the use of labels which are not only essentially offensive but which (like the use of "illegals" being advocated here) intended to demean and deride.
 

ChippyBoy

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Are you for 100% certain that even though IRB and IRCC are both under Federal Jurisdiction, that the Fed absolutely 100% won't divert resources from IRCC to IRB to resolve refugees? We have seen this done in the past. I would be very naïve to believe that the Fed won't move resources to IRB to get this problem to go away before election. They already made up a new never before "Border Security Ministry" to deal with "Irregular" refugees. They know it is an issue that can affect their chances of re-election, so they are trying to make it look like that are dealing with it. If they really dealt with it in the first place, there wouldn't be any need for a new "Border Security Minister" at all. Now the Border Security Ministry is pretty much the middle man between IRCC (border enforcement, along with other related responsiblities) and IRB (refugees).
(A.) Yes, indeed it seems highly likely that the Government will have seconded IRCC officers with various expertises over to assist the IRB with the current irregular entried border-crossed refugee-claimant crisis. He wouldn't mention any such re-allocation of resources, of course, as such an admission wouldn't help him avert criticism.

(B.) The Minister's pronouncement as to the queueing protocols makes absolutely zero comment on his Department's or upon CSIS's prioritising of refugee claimants' versus legal immigrants' background checkings, as these seem to be currently stalling-out many citizenship applicants' case-files; whereas, of course, it's highly likely from a national security stance to be hugely prioritised in favour of the former, at the time-expense of the already essentially known-quantity latter.

(C.) I think, at this stage, that the Trudeau Government should just reveal its true colours by chartering a 747 at taxpayers' expense, and having it painted it in the PM's 'You're welcome to come to Canada' tweet livery, and then we can just fly it continuously to airports across the globe, inviting all and sundry aboard for a free flight to Toronto Pearson, free celebratory drinks and food en route, and with IRCC/IRB/CBSA/RCMP/CRA/etc. officers aboard to help the new refugee claimants fill-in their initial paperwork for PR, for free healthcare, for public welfare benefits, for free housing, for free child benefits, etc. Let's just do it. A Liberal Utopia, and happily ever after; so long as your old friend the Canadian taxpayer can be duped to go on footing the bill, of course.
 
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oomuchi

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nofrills

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Agree - the majority of the comments are now made up pure speculation; armchair experts of government protocols and process; and a strong sense of "me-first" entitlement.

A sincere good luck to all applicants - I hope you get through the next few months unscathed.
 

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To bring this thread a bit back on topic, my wife's application was in IP for 159 days before she got an e-mail with her test invite. So hang in there everyone!
 

amitdi

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