Did not completed the PR stay obligation

[dpenabill]

Hi
Could you tell me which border were you reported ? If you traveled by road then which Point of entry was it ?
I am also in the same situation with not meeting RO and will be driving next month. Please suggest something from your experience which might help me in avoiding getting reported.

Thanks

The reply by @spyfy highlights why an answer to your question would NOT, and indeed CANNOT offer a reliable solution to the problems confronting a PR in breach of the PR Residency Obligation.

(Caveat: I have no idea how many a "bazillion" things is, but I do know the variables and their permutations cannot be practically calculated.)

You are asking a question that can't be answered. There is no magical border that doesn't report people. If you are reported or not depends on a bazillion things out of your control. Time of day, who is on duty, were they recently told by their superior officers to pay closer attention, is the border guard a fresh graduate of "border guard school" So even if the OP says that they were flagged at - say - Ambassador bridge that doesn't mean that you should now go anywhere but the Ambassador bridge. People get flagged all over the place.

I'm not saying that you can't get lucky but you can't really plan this.

Otherwise . . .

. . . as it is generally advised that cross through the US border on a private vehicle & most probably you will be through

Not really. DEPENDS. I am not sure how it will go at the PoE depends on a "bazillion things," but I am sure that there are so many variables it does depend on, that any such generalization is at best misleading. Moreover, for a PR who is in breach of the PR RO who has been outside Canada for more than two years, and more so by a lot if outside Canada for three or more years, it is most likely outright wrong . . . recognizing that a PR with a valid PR card has significantly better odds, but not quantifiable odds, and if the last absence has been three years, or even close to three years, those odds are most likely NOT GOOD.

While perhaps "luck" plays some role in how it goes, it is mostly a matter of the facts and circumstances, more than a few of which are unpredictable variables (example: what enforcement screening is elevated pursuant to the order-of-the-day, or week, however long particularly interdiction exercises are employed; another example: how strict or diligent the particular PIL Officer encountered happens to be, and if referred to Secondary, similarly as to how strict or diligent the Secondary Officer happens to be). Many predictable variables are nonetheless out of the PR's control by the time the PR approaches the PoE (examples: length of most recent absence; extent to which the PR is in breach of the PR RO; PR's overall history including extent of prior presence in Canada and extent of residential ties in Canada; even the PR's nationality . . . American citizens will typically have far better odds of minimal screening at the PoE than, say, a PR whose nationality is not that of a visa-exempt country).

There are some factors which tend to have a lot of influence on how it goes, recognizing however that how it will go for a particular individual PR will, again, DEPEND on multiple factors, not just any one in particular (other than those factors which will almost certainly triggered a PIL referral to Secondary, and a PR RO compliance inquiry in Secondary, like a PR absent for three plus years, not in possession of a PR card, and carrying a passport which is not visa-exempt). These factors include:
-- extent of breach of the PR RO
-- possession or not of a valid PR card (valid PR card improves odds)
-- duration of most recent absence (longer the last absence, the lower the odds)
-- -- absence for three plus years raises PR RO compliance issue on its face, since an absence of that length is automatically a breach of the PR RO UNLESS the PR is entitled to credit for time abroad
-- pattern of travel to and from Canada (pattern of coming and going relatively often can mask indicators of PR RO breach)
-- whether the PR has been previously identified as having potential PR RO compliance issues
-- particular factors illuminating or suggesting a life in Canada (plus factor) versus living outside Canada (negative factor)
-- -- a returning PR driving a vehicle the PR owns and which is registered in a Canadian province, big plus
-- -- a returning PR accompanying family who is well-settled in Canada, and better if in a vehicle owned by a family member and registered in a Canadian province

THE ABOVE IS MERELY A SMALL SAMPLE of factors, many but not all of the more influential factors, but way, way less than numerous other factors which can have a significant impact on how it goes at the PoE. The quantity and nature of the PR's baggage may have some influence. How the PR answers questions, including demeanor as much as the content, can have significant influence.

Which PoE is approached may have some influence, but that is a factor well down the list ordered by most-influential at the top, and moreover it is a largely unpredictable factor. Sure, smaller or relatively remote border crossing points tend to exercise more scrutiny, so generally one might say the major crossings are easier, BUT that is misleading to the extent it suggests this difference makes much of a difference.

And finally . . .

I Agree vensak with what you say. but now I am in a problem and asking for help/directions something which is not out of somebodies way. Any help/suggestion/comment helps people and adds value to this forum and its members.

To be clear, most participants in this forum (at least per my impression) ARE NOT keen to providing help to avoid, exploit, or abuse the Canadian immigration system.

There tends to be a lack of clarity regarding suggestions or aid for PRs who are technically in breach of the PR RO. Despite technically being in breach of the PR RO, many such PRs are NOT attempting to abuse or exploit or scam the Canadian immigration system. There are many, many scenarios and reasons WHY the PR has gotten into a jam with the PR RO. And for those who are otherwise (other than the PR RO breach for example) legitimate PRs who are genuinely pursuing a life in Canada, whatever the reason for the breach of the PR RO, participants in this forum are generally happy to offer helpful information and suggestions.

In particular, most of us will NOT judge a PR (unless a dishonest or nefarious motive or scheme is apparent). So many of us here will offer what we know about the process, about better practices in navigating the system, about risks and pitfalls and ways to avoid those, and generally many of us will, in essence, err on the side of being helpful.

BUT for most of us this does not mean we intend to help someone abuse or exploit the system. Indeed, for example, it would be inappropriate for a forum participant to overtly advise someone how to deceive or mislead border officers or otherwise violate immigration laws and regulations.

This is taking the long way round to explaining why the observations offered by @vensak, essentially emphasizing the importance of making a concerted effort to stay in compliance with the PR RO, really were a responsive answer to the question you posed, even though those observations may not be helpful in the way you hoped. The point, after all, is that there really is NO substitution for a PR actually coming to Canada and fully settling in Canada, and remaining settled in Canada, sufficient to meet the PR RO . . . unless and until citizenship is obtained.

 

[vensak]

the reason why I have commented that way is, because I was reading some stories (maybe way too offen). With as similar scenarios:

A) He became PR at date x. He found out that he could not support himself (all managerial jobs taken I guess). He returned to wherever he came from. He worked and or studied there for Y years (go married and what not). Now he realizes that he wants back (around the time where children need a good university in their resume).

B) He became PR at date X. Few month later something happened in the family (mild sickness of one of the family member). He returned on the spot (because he could not hit arrangement with any of those 20 people in the family). He stayed there for Y years (usually good after first issue is solved). In that time he might have married, taken care of adult siblings (to marry them and such stuff). And then he wants back (close to the retirement age).

C). He became PR at date X. He wanted another citizenship for him or for family. He stayed out until he got what he wanted (or a bit longer) and then he is trying to return.

I have no understanding for case A and C. All those are free personal decisions where you want to have a cake and eat it as well.
If you just wanted to have Canadian citizenship (or dual citizenship if your country does allow it), calculate around 5 years to get it. Then you will be free to go as you please (not that that is optimal, but at least it is according rules).
If for whatever economical reason you find out that you do not want to stay, why to return to Canada later? And how that is fair to all others that do meet their RO and they keep it that way?

Case B is a bit cultural specific. I have put in mild illness in order to distinguish the case.
But again if you wish to immigrate to Canada count that you will not be there to help for another 5 years and arrangement for milder situations shall be made in advance.
Yes you are the oldest son, but so what? And if the younger one is living with parents and getting some help from it, why would it be so difficult to be present during that time. He is no less child of the family then you are.
I guess here I just do not understand cultural difference. But at the end of the day your case will be judged according to the Canadian cultural standards (where people work until their mid 60 or up to 70 and where nobody needs his sibling to arrange his marriage).

One bottom note. There is one bill that is either about being passed or was passed already. According to that bill Canada should start collecting exit data (just like USA is doing). So all you need is another 3-4 years and this grey zone will be a history (with good database of the data system can easily do first calculation and flag anybody who was extensively abroad). And if you have a valid reason (business trips, living with your Canadian spouse), then the secondary review shall be cleared easily.

 

[Medmhn]

Can I renw my.pr urgent even I do not meet the residency requirements.bec I ve emergency back.home .my.wife need to do surgi.and I.need to be there to.take care about her and.my.2kids
To meet the residency requirements.I.need to.wait.until 20 jun2018.do.is only 45days I need to.wait to finish the 730
But im.forced to.leave canada bec.my emgergcy.so any chance if.I apaly they give me.my.pr.or no

 

[canuck_in_uk]

Can I renw my.pr urgent even I do not meet the residency requirements.bec I ve emergency back.home .my.wife need to do surgi.and I.need to be there to.take care about her and.my.2kids
To meet the residency requirements.I.need to.wait.until 20 jun2018.do.is only 45days I need to.wait to finish the 730
But im.forced to.leave canada bec.my emgergcy.so any chance if.I apaly they give me.my.pr.or no

No. If you apply now, you can expect to have your PR status revoked.

 

[Medmhn]

But is emergency

 

[canuck_in_uk]

But is emergency

A perfect example of why you should have complied with the Residency Obligation to start with.

 

[Rob_TO]

But is emergency

How does an emergency now, explain why you didn't spend at least 2 years in Canada to comply with the RO over the past 5 years?

Doesn't matter what the reason is today, if you apply to renew PR card without meeting RO you can expect it will end in your PR status being revoked. Or if you leave Canada without your PR card, you can expect your RO violation to be discovered when you try to return again leading to revoking of your PR status.

 

[May2014]

The reply by @spyfy highlights why an answer to your question would NOT, and indeed CANNOT offer a reliable solution to the problems confronting a PR in breach of the PR Residency Obligation.

(Caveat: I have no idea how many a "bazillion" things is, but I do know the variables and their permutations cannot be practically calculated.)



Otherwise . . .



Not really. DEPENDS. I am not sure how it will go at the PoE depends on a "bazillion things," but I am sure that there are so many variables it does depend on, that any such generalization is at best misleading. Moreover, for a PR who is in breach of the PR RO who has been outside Canada for more than two years, and more so by a lot if outside Canada for three or more years, it is most likely outright wrong . . . recognizing that a PR with a valid PR card has significantly better odds, but not quantifiable odds, and if the last absence has been three years, or even close to three years, those odds are most likely NOT GOOD.

While perhaps "luck" plays some role in how it goes, it is mostly a matter of the facts and circumstances, more than a few of which are unpredictable variables (example: what enforcement screening is elevated pursuant to the order-of-the-day, or week, however long particularly interdiction exercises are employed; another example: how strict or diligent the particular PIL Officer encountered happens to be, and if referred to Secondary, similarly as to how strict or diligent the Secondary Officer happens to be). Many predictable variables are nonetheless out of the PR's control by the time the PR approaches the PoE (examples: length of most recent absence; extent to which the PR is in breach of the PR RO; PR's overall history including extent of prior presence in Canada and extent of residential ties in Canada; even the PR's nationality . . . American citizens will typically have far better odds of minimal screening at the PoE than, say, a PR whose nationality is not that of a visa-exempt country).

There are some factors which tend to have a lot of influence on how it goes, recognizing however that how it will go for a particular individual PR will, again, DEPEND on multiple factors, not just any one in particular (other than those factors which will almost certainly triggered a PIL referral to Secondary, and a PR RO compliance inquiry in Secondary, like a PR absent for three plus years, not in possession of a PR card, and carrying a passport which is not visa-exempt). These factors include:
-- extent of breach of the PR RO
-- possession or not of a valid PR card (valid PR card improves odds)
-- duration of most recent absence (longer the last absence, the lower the odds)
-- -- absence for three plus years raises PR RO compliance issue on its face, since an absence of that length is automatically a breach of the PR RO UNLESS the PR is entitled to credit for time abroad
-- pattern of travel to and from Canada (pattern of coming and going relatively often can mask indicators of PR RO breach)
-- whether the PR has been previously identified as having potential PR RO compliance issues
-- particular factors illuminating or suggesting a life in Canada (plus factor) versus living outside Canada (negative factor)
-- -- a returning PR driving a vehicle the PR owns and which is registered in a Canadian province, big plus
-- -- a returning PR accompanying family who is well-settled in Canada, and better if in a vehicle owned by a family member and registered in a Canadian province

THE ABOVE IS MERELY A SMALL SAMPLE of factors, many but not all of the more influential factors, but way, way less than numerous other factors which can have a significant impact on how it goes at the PoE. The quantity and nature of the PR's baggage may have some influence. How the PR answers questions, including demeanor as much as the content, can have significant influence.

Which PoE is approached may have some influence, but that is a factor well down the list ordered by most-influential at the top, and moreover it is a largely unpredictable factor. Sure, smaller or relatively remote border crossing points tend to exercise more scrutiny, so generally one might say the major crossings are easier, BUT that is misleading to the extent it suggests this difference makes much of a difference.

And finally . . .



To be clear, most participants in this forum (at least per my impression) ARE NOT keen to providing help to avoid, exploit, or abuse the Canadian immigration system.

There tends to be a lack of clarity regarding suggestions or aid for PRs who are technically in breach of the PR RO. Despite technically being in breach of the PR RO, many such PRs are NOT attempting to abuse or exploit or scam the Canadian immigration system. There are many, many scenarios and reasons WHY the PR has gotten into a jam with the PR RO. And for those who are otherwise (other than the PR RO breach for example) legitimate PRs who are genuinely pursuing a life in Canada, whatever the reason for the breach of the PR RO, participants in this forum are generally happy to offer helpful information and suggestions.

In particular, most of us will NOT judge a PR (unless a dishonest or nefarious motive or scheme is apparent). So many of us here will offer what we know about the process, about better practices in navigating the system, about risks and pitfalls and ways to avoid those, and generally many of us will, in essence, err on the side of being helpful.

BUT for most of us this does not mean we intend to help someone abuse or exploit the system. Indeed, for example, it would be inappropriate for a forum participant to overtly advise someone how to deceive or mislead border officers or otherwise violate immigration laws and regulations.

This is taking the long way round to explaining why the observations offered by @vensak, essentially emphasizing the importance of making a concerted effort to stay in compliance with the PR RO, really were a responsive answer to the question you posed, even though those observations may not be helpful in the way you hoped. The point, after all, is that there really is NO substitution for a PR actually coming to Canada and fully settling in Canada, and remaining settled in Canada, sufficient to meet the PR RO . . . unless and until citizenship is obtained.

Hi dpenabill,

I have been following this forum for years , I did my all my papers and my sons through other people’s guidance and help untill today we are proud Canadians .
We are also Canadians that respect and hope to contribute to this wonderful country .
I am seeking your expert advice( and others if they would like to share their opinion ) as regards my husbands situation.
His PR has expired since 2015 ..with no residency compliance ( he spent the time with both of his elderly parents until both died ) however he came to join us in June 2018.. through the US Canadian border , he passed with no questions or referrals , we were lucky .
For 9 months he studied , integrated and even started working freelancer ... however he HAD to leave to secure us more financial resources from outside Canada .
His return after 2and half months through the border , we were referred to secondary , with all the evidence that he was living , trying hard to integrate , and honesty , the officer let him pass with off course some advice to apply to renew .
Now ... He has been in Canada and will remain till March 2020, where unfortunately, we have to return home for my sons wedding ( all 3 of us ) . ..
by the count of days , he will be eligible to apply for PR renewal by July 2020 .. taking in consideration that the time spent from March till July will be outside Canada accompanying myself as a Canadian citizen will be counted hopefully towards the remainder of his residency count .

The question is
1) do we hire a representative and apply from outside ? Is that possible or legal
2) if not .. do we risk crossing the border again but with a ready PR application filled out proving that this time around we have met the obligation and came to submit it bec we can’t from outside ?
3) do I just fly separately in and apply for him ? I know mb with a receipt that we applied we can pick him up from the border !

Note that a travel document will certainly start a revoke process ..,

Please let me know your thoughts , even your recommendations as regards a representative.


Thank you

 

[canuck78]

Hi dpenabill,

I have been following this forum for years , I did my all my papers and my sons through other people’s guidance and help untill today we are proud Canadians .
We are also Canadians that respect and hope to contribute to this wonderful country .
I am seeking your expert advice( and others if they would like to share their opinion ) as regards my husbands situation.
His PR has expired since 2015 ..with no residency compliance ( he spent the time with both of his elderly parents until both died ) however he came to join us in June 2018.. through the US Canadian border , he passed with no questions or referrals , we were lucky .
For 9 months he studied , integrated and even started working freelancer ... however he HAD to leave to secure us more financial resources from outside Canada .
His return after 2and half months through the border , we were referred to secondary , with all the evidence that he was living , trying hard to integrate , and honesty , the officer let him pass with off course some advice to apply to renew .
Now ... He has been in Canada and will remain till March 2020, where unfortunately, we have to return home for my sons wedding ( all 3 of us ) . ..
by the count of days , he will be eligible to apply for PR renewal by July 2020 .. taking in consideration that the time spent from March till July will be outside Canada accompanying myself as a Canadian citizen will be counted hopefully towards the remainder of his residency count .

The question is
1) do we hire a representative and apply from outside ? Is that possible or legal
2) if not .. do we risk crossing the border again but with a ready PR application filled out proving that this time around we have met the obligation and came to submit it bec we can’t from outside ?
3) do I just fly separately in and apply for him ? I know mb with a receipt that we applied we can pick him up from the border !

Note that a travel document will certainly start a revoke process ..,

Please let me know your thoughts , even your recommendations as regards a representative.


Thank you

Knowing that he would not meet his RO why did you set the wedding date for after he was compliant? Your husband has gotten lucky twice.

 

[May2014]

Knowing that he would not meet his RO why did you set the wedding date for after he was compliant? Your husband has gotten lucky twice.

Hi
You are definitely right , but unfortunately somethings just were impossible to do , already the wedding was postponed twice to accommodate us.
However , do you know of a way I can check if my husband is flagged on the system at the borders ? , Foss notes or officer notes ? Maybe that can give us an insight on what yo expect!?

Any guidance or advice is much appreciated .

Thank you

 

[dpenabill]

We are also Canadians that respect and hope to contribute to this wonderful country .
I am seeking your expert advice( and others if they would like to share their opinion ) as regards my husbands situation.
His PR has expired since 2015 ..with no residency compliance ( he spent the time with both of his elderly parents until both died ) however he came to join us in June 2018.. through the US Canadian border , he passed with no questions or referrals , we were lucky .

Lots and lots of issues. That said, and this is something I will repeat more than once, conventional wisdom offers the best advice available:

A PR IN Canada who is NOT in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation, should STAY IN Canada, and avoid transactions with IRCC or CBSA, and stay long enough to get into full compliance . . . thus, NOT make any applications to IRCC until AFTER the PR has stayed long enough to get into full compliance with the PR RO. Thus, NOT travel abroad until AFTER the PR has stayed long enough to get into full compliance with the PR RO.

For a PR who has priorities more important than keeping PR status, or which are important enough to take the RISK of losing PR status, no one can credibly advise the PR what to do. Best that can be offered is some information illuminating what we know about relative RISKS, and then the PR needs to decide for himself what RISKS to take based on the PR's own best grasp of what ALL the relevant facts are and how much RISK is acceptable, compared to the relative importance of competing priorities.

Note, in the circumstances you describe, there are some RISKS relying on credit toward RO compliance for time abroad accompanying a citizen spouse. In particular, there is a RISK IRCC could conclude you, the citizen, is the one accompanying the PR spouse abroad, which can be a basis for IRCC to conclude the credit does NOT apply. This part gets especially complicated.

In any event, first and foremost:

To obtain expert advice, see a LAWYER. In a PAID-for consultation.

For situations like yours, the emphasis is especially on consulting with a LAWYER. This is a situation in which you are seeking analytical expertise NOT representation. I do not know to what extent authorized representatives (definitely steer way, way wide of unauthorized representatives) will offer paid-for consultations and advice, but that is not their primary role. Lawyers are often paid to examine and evaluate a situation, and offer an opinion, "advice," without necessarily engaging in any actions with others on the client's behalf (that is, without "representing" the client in any transactions).

Note, so-called "free consultations" are worth about what you pay for them: nothing. They are really about determining whether or not to pay a lawyer for representation or at best to determine if there is a need to pay for a real personal consultation. (Generally it is difficult enough to find a lawyer whose services are worth what you pay for; meaning they tend to be overpriced. But when you need a doctor or a lawyer, you need a doctor or a lawyer, not some anonymous know-it-all on the Internet.)

Moreover, to be clear, this is NOT an appropriate venue for seeking or giving "expert advice." Even if there are "experts" participating and responding to questions here, that should NOT be considered to be "expert advice." And for sure, any "expert" should know that this is NOT an appropriate place to give personal advice, for many reasons . . . with obvious exceptions (of the sort readily figured out based on well-known and understood answers to FAQs).

I for sure am NOT an expert. And I do NOT (for many reasons) offer personal advice. With obvious exceptions (of the sort readily figured out based on well-known and understood answers to FAQs).

That said, this is a situation in which the best advice is actually rather obvious, no need for "expert" advice as such, no lawyer necessary, and it has been stated over and over again in this forum, not just by me but by many:

A PR IN Canada who is NOT in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation, should STAY IN Canada, and avoid transactions with IRCC or CBSA, and stay long enough to get into full compliance . . . thus, NOT make any applications to IRCC until AFTER the PR has stayed long enough to get into full compliance with the PR RO. Thus, NOT travel abroad until AFTER the PR has stayed long enough to get into full compliance with the PR RO.

To fully address your questions in your situation will require much more than can be included in a single post. Indeed, I can probably just scratch the surface of a couple issues in a single post . . . so another post will follow this one, and even then there may be more to address later.

 

[dpenabill]

Continuing . . .

He has been in Canada and will remain till March 2020 . . . we have to return home for my sons wedding . . . the time spent from March till July will be outside Canada . . .

As I previously observed, this is a situation in which the best advice is actually rather obvious, no need for "expert" advice as such, no lawyer necessary, and this advice has been stated over and over again in this forum, not just by me but by many:

A PR IN Canada who is NOT in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation, should STAY IN Canada, and . . . avoid transactions with IRCC or CBSA, and stay long enough to get into full compliance.

For some that is not possible. Or, even if possible, for some PRs other priorities compel travel abroad despite the RISK of losing PR status.

And then, such as you reference in your situation, there can be a wrinkle or two which can complicate matters. Such as whether or not, and even if so to what extent, could accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse abroad change the calculation.

I recognize that considering the latter, and hoping that will facilitate a safe path forward despite the non-compliant PR traveling abroad, is important to you. And I can offer quite a few observations which might assist YOU and YOUR spouse in evaluating the options. BUT I should NOT be relied on as an expert. I am NOT an expert. AND what I say should NOT be considered to be personal advice, but rather just some information you can consider in making these rather important decisions for yourselves. EXCEPT to repeat what is, again, the rather obvious best advice about STAYING in Canada.

BUT obviously, to STAY is NOT the advice you are seeking. And, it appears that is NOT what he is going to do.

SO assuming he is going to go abroad anyway. Are there options? What options?

Yes, there are various ways to go about this that can have an impact on what the RISKS will be. All of them involve some RISK, and while it is easy to recognize some will have a lot more RISK than others, it is very difficult if not impossible to precisely quantify the RISKS.

It is difficult to make even rough comparisons of the risks posed for different options.

For example, my sense (roughly) is the lowest risk option is to go abroad just long enough to attend the wedding and return to Canada ASAP, all of you returning together, traveling via the U.S. assuming that is again possible, and being prepared to fully explain history and circumstances at the PoE, anticipating the circumstances will result in being waived through without being reported. My GUESS is there a fair to good chance this works.

BUT there is still a risk he will be Issued a Departure Order at the PoE upon arrival. If the trip abroad was short, given the recent time in Canada and other circumstances, accompanying family well settled in Canada, there are fair odds that like before he will not be Reported . . . and even if Reported, he gets to stay and work in Canada pending an appeal, and in these circumstances, odds of the appeal succeeding seem good.

BUT even if the appeal fails, among the various options is another, a safety net of sorts: having a spouse who can sponsor the PR in the event the PR loses status. This really is a safety net of sorts. It allows a PR to take some RISKS which a PR who does not have this option might not take.

This fall back option should mitigate the RISKS for any of the options . . . noting, again, since it really is worth repeating, the only NO RISK option is clear: STAY in Canada until he is in full compliance.

How do the RISKS of being Reported after a short trip abroad compare to, say, a plan to rely on getting credit toward RO compliance based on "accompanying" his Canadian citizen abroad? Again, it is difficult to make even rough comparisons of the risks. But make no mistake, the latter is NOT risk free.

Regarding this, it gets complicated.

SO let's be clear about the situation: if he leaves BEFORE he is in compliance with the PR RO, relying on credit toward time counted as IN Canada for time abroad with his citizen spouse, will be EXPECTING IRCC to consider that a breach of the RO can be CURED by a PR being abroad with a citizen spouse. We have NOT seen cases which specifically address this situation. The question, of course, is whether or not this is a situation in which IRCC might take a close look at who-is-accompanying-whom, with a risk that IRCC might conclude the citizen spouse is accompanying the PR rather than the PR accompanying the citizen spouse (for which credit toward RO compliance can be denied). There are multiple topics here which address related questions. For example, see the topic "Who-accompanied-whom can matter for PRs living with citizen spouse abroad: UPDATE" at
https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/who-accompanied-whom-can-matter-for-prs-living-with-citizen-spouse-abroad-update.579860/

REMEMBER, regarding factors which influence how the rules are interpreted and especially in how they are applied, the PURPOSE for granting PR status is an important consideration. And the purpose for granting PR status is clearly, emphatically, so that the individual can come to Canada to LIVE in Canada PERMANENTLY. If it is apparent, or even obvious, a PR is NOT settled in Canada PERMANENTLY, that does NOT disqualify him from keeping PR status. BUT it is very likely to influence how IRCC applies the rules and especially influence what inferences IRCC makes based on the facts and circumstances. In a plan relying on credit toward RO compliance for time abroad accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse, the RISK (I do not know what decisions IRCC will likely make let alone actually make) is in whether the appearance of NOT being settled in Canada permanently will tip the scales toward concluding the citizen is accompanying the PR abroad, which could mean the PR does not qualify for credit based on the PR accompanying the citizen abroad.

Which brings this around to at least your first question: "do we hire a representative and apply from outside ? Is that possible or legal" . . . which needs to be considered in context with your observation "Note that a travel document will certainly start a revoke process .."

NOTE: There is little or no difference in the decision-making. If an application for a PR TD "will certainly" result in a negative decision (which does not just "start" the process but is in fact THE DECISION terminating PR status, subject to appeal), there is no reason to believe that an application for a new PR card will have a different result.

Longer explanation: IRCC's position is that an application for a new PR card must be made "IN" Canada. This in itself has some wrinkles and is NOT an absolute requirement BUT . . . well, this is a big subject itself and not worth the distraction here. Overall, NOT a good idea to apply for a new PR card when the PR is abroad, even if it can be done, and notwithstanding reports here of more than a few for whom this went OK. Just not a good idea, and in your spouse's situation my sense is that this is true in particular, but why is not worth getting bogged down in . . . EXCEPT . . . to clarify what is involved. Which again leads to "Note that a travel document will certainly start a revoke process .."

The RO decision a Visa Office makes (for a PR TD application) is based on precisely the same rules as IRCC will apply in processing an application for a new PR card. Despite indications that Visa Offices are somewhat more strict in their decision-making, the rules and decision-making are basically the same. Theoretically, for the exact same facts, there should be no more risk of a negative decision by a Visa Office than there is of a negative IRCC decision for a PR card application. (Technically there is a legal presumption that a PR abroad does not have valid PR status, but this does not change the decision-making calculations much.)

Moreover, a new PR card does not "extend" PR status. Even if a new card is issued, the PR can still be questioned about RO compliance the next time he arrives at a PoE, and need to show (credit for) 730 days IN Canada within the past five years.

The point being that apart from the logistics and various reasons why applying for a new PR card while abroad (using a representative or otherwise) is probably a bad idea, if the PR has a solid case for keeping PR status that is just as valid for purposes of a PR TD application as it is for a PR card application.

Which brings this to a question about your plans. It appears the plan is to go abroad in March and stay abroad until at least July. Or beyond that? Oddly enough, unless the plan is to specifically return to Canada in July, just plain living abroad together for a long while BEFORE making any application . . . either an application for a PR TD or an application to enter Canada (that is, coming to Canada via the U.S.) . . . may improve the appearance of things relative to qualifying for the accompanying-citizen-spouse-abroad credit . . . but NOT without RISKS still, depending on all the particulars. Gets complicated.

For now, best plan is to STAY in Canada. Second to that, is to only go abroad for as short a period of time as possible. Beyond that it gets complicated. And, indeed, complicated enough that even an expert probably should NOT advise what to do, but rather provide information you and your spouse can consider in making decisions for yourselves, taking into account your personal priorities and your personal thresholds for acceptable-risks.

 

[May2014]

Lots and lots of issues. That said, and this is something I will repeat more than once, conventional wisdom offers the best advice available:

A PR IN Canada who is NOT in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation, should STAY IN Canada, and avoid transactions with IRCC or CBSA, and stay long enough to get into full compliance . . . thus, NOT make any applications to IRCC until AFTER the PR has stayed long enough to get into full compliance with the PR RO. Thus, NOT travel abroad until AFTER the PR has stayed long enough to get into full compliance with the PR RO.

For a PR who has priorities more important than keeping PR status, or which are important enough to take the RISK of losing PR status, no one can credibly advise the PR what to do. Best that can be offered is some information illuminating what we know about relative RISKS, and then the PR needs to decide for himself what RISKS to take based on the PR's own best grasp of what ALL the relevant facts are and how much RISK is acceptable, compared to the relative importance of competing priorities.

Note, in the circumstances you describe, there are some RISKS relying on credit toward RO compliance for time abroad accompanying a citizen spouse. In particular, there is a RISK IRCC could conclude you, the citizen, is the one accompanying the PR spouse abroad, which can be a basis for IRCC to conclude the credit does NOT apply. This part gets especially complicated.

In any event, first and foremost:

To obtain expert advice, see a LAWYER. In a PAID-for consultation.

For situations like yours, the emphasis is especially on consulting with a LAWYER. This is a situation in which you are seeking analytical expertise NOT representation. I do not know to what extent authorized representatives (definitely steer way, way wide of unauthorized representatives) will offer paid-for consultations and advice, but that is not their primary role. Lawyers are often paid to examine and evaluate a situation, and offer an opinion, "advice," without necessarily engaging in any actions with others on the client's behalf (that is, without "representing" the client in any transactions).

Note, so-called "free consultations" are worth about what you pay for them: nothing. They are really about determining whether or not to pay a lawyer for representation or at best to determine if there is a need to pay for a real personal consultation. (Generally it is difficult enough to find a lawyer whose services are worth what you pay for; meaning they tend to be overpriced. But when you need a doctor or a lawyer, you need a doctor or a lawyer, not some anonymous know-it-all on the Internet.)

Moreover, to be clear, this is NOT an appropriate venue for seeking or giving "expert advice." Even if there are "experts" participating and responding to questions here, that should NOT be considered to be "expert advice." And for sure, any "expert" should know that this is NOT an appropriate place to give personal advice, for many reasons . . . with obvious exceptions (of the sort readily figured out based on well-known and understood answers to FAQs).

I for sure am NOT an expert. And I do NOT (for many reasons) offer personal advice. With obvious exceptions (of the sort readily figured out based on well-known and understood answers to FAQs).

That said, this is a situation in which the best advice is actually rather obvious, no need for "expert" advice as such, no lawyer necessary, and it has been stated over and over again in this forum, not just by me but by many:

A PR IN Canada who is NOT in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation, should STAY IN Canada, and avoid transactions with IRCC or CBSA, and stay long enough to get into full compliance . . . thus, NOT make any applications to IRCC until AFTER the PR has stayed long enough to get into full compliance with the PR RO. Thus, NOT travel abroad until AFTER the PR has stayed long enough to get into full compliance with the PR RO.

To fully address your questions in your situation will require much more than can be included in a single post. Indeed, I can probably just scratch the surface of a couple issues in a single post . . . so another post will follow this one, and even then there may be more to address later.

I can’t thank you enough .. your response is highly appreciated and valued .
I am already searching for a lawyer .. any recommendations I am open to !

 

[May2014]

I can’t thank you enough .. your response is highly appreciated and valued .
I am already searching for a lawyer .. any recommendations I am open to !

I will await your other posts .. thank you again

 

[May2014]

Continuing . . .



As I previously observed, this is a situation in which the best advice is actually rather obvious, no need for "expert" advice as such, no lawyer necessary, and this advice has been stated over and over again in this forum, not just by me but by many:

A PR IN Canada who is NOT in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation, should STAY IN Canada, and . . . avoid transactions with IRCC or CBSA, and stay long enough to get into full compliance.

For some that is not possible. Or, even if possible, for some PRs other priorities compel travel abroad despite the RISK of losing PR status.

And then, such as you reference in your situation, there can be a wrinkle or two which can complicate matters. Such as whether or not, and even if so to what extent, could accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse abroad change the calculation.

I recognize that considering the latter, and hoping that will facilitate a safe path forward despite the non-compliant PR traveling abroad, is important to you. And I can offer quite a few observations which might assist YOU and YOUR spouse in evaluating the options. BUT I should NOT be relied on as an expert. I am NOT an expert. AND what I say should NOT be considered to be personal advice, but rather just some information you can consider in making these rather important decisions for yourselves. EXCEPT to repeat what is, again, the rather obvious best advice about STAYING in Canada.

BUT obviously, to STAY is NOT the advice you are seeking. And, it appears that is NOT what he is going to do.

SO assuming he is going to go abroad anyway. Are there options? What options?

Yes, there are various ways to go about this that can have an impact on what the RISKS will be. All of them involve some RISK, and while it is easy to recognize some will have a lot more RISK than others, it is very difficult if not impossible to precisely quantify the RISKS.

It is difficult to make even rough comparisons of the risks posed for different options.

For example, my sense (roughly) is the lowest risk option is to go abroad just long enough to attend the wedding and return to Canada ASAP, all of you returning together, traveling via the U.S. assuming that is again possible, and being prepared to fully explain history and circumstances at the PoE, anticipating the circumstances will result in being waived through without being reported. My GUESS is there a fair to good chance this works.

BUT there is still a risk he will be Issued a Departure Order at the PoE upon arrival. If the trip abroad was short, given the recent time in Canada and other circumstances, accompanying family well settled in Canada, there are fair odds that like before he will not be Reported . . . and even if Reported, he gets to stay and work in Canada pending an appeal, and in these circumstances, odds of the appeal succeeding seem good.

BUT even if the appeal fails, among the various options is another, a safety net of sorts: having a spouse who can sponsor the PR in the event the PR loses status. This really is a safety net of sorts. It allows a PR to take some RISKS which a PR who does not have this option might not take.

This fall back option should mitigate the RISKS for any of the options . . . noting, again, since it really is worth repeating, the only NO RISK option is clear: STAY in Canada until he is in full compliance.

How do the RISKS of being Reported after a short trip abroad compare to, say, a plan to rely on getting credit toward RO compliance based on "accompanying" his Canadian citizen abroad? Again, it is difficult to make even rough comparisons of the risks. But make no mistake, the latter is NOT risk free.

Regarding this, it gets complicated.

SO let's be clear about the situation: if he leaves BEFORE he is in compliance with the PR RO, relying on credit toward time counted as IN Canada for time abroad with his citizen spouse, will be EXPECTING IRCC to consider that a breach of the RO can be CURED by a PR being abroad with a citizen spouse. We have NOT seen cases which specifically address this situation. The question, of course, is whether or not this is a situation in which IRCC might take a close look at who-is-accompanying-whom, with a risk that IRCC might conclude the citizen spouse is accompanying the PR rather than the PR accompanying the citizen spouse (for which credit toward RO compliance can be denied). There are multiple topics here which address related questions. For example, see the topic "Who-accompanied-whom can matter for PRs living with citizen spouse abroad: UPDATE" at
https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/who-accompanied-whom-can-matter-for-prs-living-with-citizen-spouse-abroad-update.579860/

REMEMBER, regarding factors which influence how the rules are interpreted and especially in how they are applied, the PURPOSE for granting PR status is an important consideration. And the purpose for granting PR status is clearly, emphatically, so that the individual can come to Canada to LIVE in Canada PERMANENTLY. If it is apparent, or even obvious, a PR is NOT settled in Canada PERMANENTLY, that does NOT disqualify him from keeping PR status. BUT it is very likely to influence how IRCC applies the rules and especially influence what inferences IRCC makes based on the facts and circumstances. In a plan relying on credit toward RO compliance for time abroad accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse, the RISK (I do not know what decisions IRCC will likely make let alone actually make) is in whether the appearance of NOT being settled in Canada permanently will tip the scales toward concluding the citizen is accompanying the PR abroad, which could mean the PR does not qualify for credit based on the PR accompanying the citizen abroad.

Which brings this around to at least your first question: "do we hire a representative and apply from outside ? Is that possible or legal" . . . which needs to be considered in context with your observation "Note that a travel document will certainly start a revoke process .."

NOTE: There is little or no difference in the decision-making. If an application for a PR TD "will certainly" result in a negative decision (which does not just "start" the process but is in fact THE DECISION terminating PR status, subject to appeal), there is no reason to believe that an application for a new PR card will have a different result.

Longer explanation: IRCC's position is that an application for a new PR card must be made "IN" Canada. This in itself has some wrinkles and is NOT an absolute requirement BUT . . . well, this is a big subject itself and not worth the distraction here. Overall, NOT a good idea to apply for a new PR card when the PR is abroad, even if it can be done, and notwithstanding reports here of more than a few for whom this went OK. Just not a good idea, and in your spouse's situation my sense is that this is true in particular, but why is not worth getting bogged down in . . . EXCEPT . . . to clarify what is involved. Which again leads to "Note that a travel document will certainly start a revoke process .."

The RO decision a Visa Office makes (for a PR TD application) is based on precisely the same rules as IRCC will apply in processing an application for a new PR card. Despite indications that Visa Offices are somewhat more strict in their decision-making, the rules and decision-making are basically the same. Theoretically, for the exact same facts, there should be no more risk of a negative decision by a Visa Office than there is of a negative IRCC decision for a PR card application. (Technically there is a legal presumption that a PR abroad does not have valid PR status, but this does not change the decision-making calculations much.)

Moreover, a new PR card does not "extend" PR status. Even if a new card is issued, the PR can still be questioned about RO compliance the next time he arrives at a PoE, and need to show (credit for) 730 days IN Canada within the past five years.

The point being that apart from the logistics and various reasons why applying for a new PR card while abroad (using a representative or otherwise) is probably a bad idea, if the PR has a solid case for keeping PR status that is just as valid for purposes of a PR TD application as it is for a PR card application.

Which brings this to a question about your plans. It appears the plan is to go abroad in March and stay abroad until at least July. Or beyond that? Oddly enough, unless the plan is to specifically return to Canada in July, just plain living abroad together for a long while BEFORE making any application . . . either an application for a PR TD or an application to enter Canada (that is, coming to Canada via the U.S.) . . . may improve the appearance of things relative to qualifying for the accompanying-citizen-spouse-abroad credit . . . but NOT without RISKS still, depending on all the particulars. Gets complicated.

For now, best plan is to STAY in Canada. Second to that, is to only go abroad for as short a period of time as possible. Beyond that it gets complicated. And, indeed, complicated enough that even an expert probably should NOT advise what to do, but rather provide information you and your spouse can consider in making decisions for yourselves, taking into account your personal priorities and your personal thresholds for acceptable-risks.

Thank you
Just saw this .. I apologize.. will read thoroughly first and carefully