Thank you so much , very informative , eye opening and very logical , i didn’t think of returning immediately , but definitely will do so .. it seems to be our best option not without risks but mb the least of them ....we can even return maximum a week from the wedding date ( me and my husband) .. by that time my son would have returned from his honeymoon to Canada ...drive and pick us up from the border ..
May I ask .. is there a way to obtain any notes regarding his last entry with secondary on the system .. like if he is flagged at p.o.e ..
Are these called the Foss notes or officer notes from act of access of personal information ?
Do you have any knowledge about them ?
Kindly also if you may recommend a lawyer .. as you described .. that also will be of immense help .. as you know it’s really hard to choose one that has such expertise .
dpenabill ... God bless you .. I am very grateful for your time and effort . Thank you again
REMINDER: I really am NOT an expert. I am just sharing a narrow slice of detailed information which might seem like expertise but it really is NOT. It just means I have obsessively followed this or that narrow issue far more intensely than a reasonable person will. I realize my hobbies are a bit strange. Hobbies should never be confused with what it takes to be a professional or an expert. And anonymous internet sources should never be relied upon for expertise. Including, emphatically, me. (If what I offer makes sense and helps, and I hope it does, that is good, about as good as I can do anyway.)
Obtaining Personal Records:
The ATIP process allows a Canadian (by the way, your spouse is also a "Canadian," since both citizens and PRs are "Canadians" under our legal system) to request and obtain personal information from government agencies.
For immigration related information, IRCC does not, however, make it easy to do so except to obtain rather generic copies of GCMS notes attendant a pending application, which are typically not informative, not particularly useful. For example, a PR with either a citizenship application or a PR card application can use the generic form provided by IRCC for requesting a "copy" of the application file. But again, that is rarely of much use (and it is well shy of being a complete copy).
Customized requests can be made, and a carefully composed request could potentially provide a PR with some detailed information about what information there is in the PR's records more broadly, potentially including notes from PoE examinations (if any) that would formerly have been characterized as FOSS entries. I have yet to see anyone with much experience let alone expertise in doing this. My impression is that this is NOT something lawyers ordinarily do. I am not even sure whether the ATIP request should go to CBSA or IRCC. Might take doing both.
The legal apparatus is there. How to practically do this in a way that will generate useful information, that is beyond what I know and probably requires doing a good deal of homework to figure out how. (Some engaged in academic research and some journalists have significant experience with the ATI process, and even I have done a little of that, which is somewhat similar except the object is general information NOT an individual's personal information; but it is real work, not easy, and not readily translated for use in the ATIP process.)
I do not mean to discourage you or your spouse from pursuing the ATIP procedure to obtain information in the records. The point is that doing so demands a concerted effort, and more so if one expects to obtain any real information. That said, one source of readily obtained ATIP information is to request a copy of the CBSA travel history, which should show a record of all dates of entry for the individual. PRs should have a complete and precise record of all this information without obtaining the CBSA history, but for those who have not kept good records, this information can be helpful in assessing the relevant facts.
In the meantime, though, your spouse knows his own history. He was there during any PoE examinations. He should have a good idea what the records might reveal. Probably worse case scenario is simply a note to the file in the nature of an alert about potential PR RO compliance issues. Regarding this, when he next arrives, his mostly staying in Canada for 16 or 17 months out of the last 20, or so, and traveling WITH family, and returning to Canada after a SHORT trip abroad for a very easily understood reason . . . mostly appearing to now be settled into a PERMANENT life in Canada . . . should improve his chances at the border rather significantly. That said, I was NOT there the last time, and I do not know what was represented, and I do not know all the relevant facts, so my sense about the chances are very general. Overall, the more he has been IN Canada the better. Overall, the more honest, the more credible he appears to the border officials, the better. Overall, the more it appears he is simply RETURNING to a life being lived in Canada, the better. And being ready to again explain why it took so long to come to settle in Canada permanently.
Leading to . . .
IS IT TIME TO LAWYER-UP?
There probably is NOT much a lawyer can do for you at this juncture. As I noted, with much emphasis, the safe advice is NOT complicated. STAY until in compliance.
If you want EXPERT advice. Yes, lawyer-up. But you appear to still be in the range of decision-making for which expert advice is not necessary. A lawyer will not be able to FOR-SURE forecast how this or that will go. A lawyer's advice is likely to be as simple as the conventional wisdom: stay IN Canada until in compliance. Otherwise, minimize the time abroad and return to Canada as soon as possible. (And be prepared to honestly detail history of time in Canada and to explain all the circumstances, frankly, honestly, straight-forwardly.)
A lawyer might more thoroughly address the prospects of saving PR if your spouse stays abroad and you are living together abroad, as to whether or not that will satisfy RO rules. I am not familiar with what immigration lawyers are saying about this these days. My sense is that this is an issue more complex than what most lawyers deal with day-to-day in their practices and they would be a better resource about this
IF and WHEN an appeal is necessary, whether that is in appealing a PR TD denial or appealing a Report & Departure Order issued at a PoE. That is, I am confident some lawyers could competently advocate the case for the time together counting . . . but that would happen in the context of an appeal.
That is a bridge you hope to not reach.
If, for example, you make the trip and he is Reported and issued a Departure Order when you return to Canada, there is time to appeal (30 days), he is still a Canadian pending appeal (gets to keep PR status pending the appeal), and he gets to enter and stay in Canada pending the appeal. And you would have time then to find and hire a lawyer to help in the appeal.
But hopefully there is one more reprieve, one more lenient PoE examination, and no need to appeal.
RECOMMENDING A LAWYER:
Sorry, I am not personally acquainted with any lawyers I know to be actively engaged in immigration law . . . I was a client of one Canadian immigration lawyer more than a decade ago, but she left the firm many years ago and I am not familiar with her current practice, and I suspect that even if she is still engaged in immigration matters, she is a long, long way from your location (this place is NOT in one of Canada's larger urban areas, but rather a long way from any of them).
I know it can be difficult to find a good lawyer. A quarter century ago I needed a lawyer (not in Canada at the time, and not about immigration) with real expertise in a certain area of law, and, after doing a lot of my own homework, it took a lot of phone calls and consultations to find one . . . and I eventually went with one who appeared to have solid experience and expertise GENERALLY in that area of law but who readily acknowledged he did NOT know the answers to my particular questions and issues BUT was willing to do the research to figure things out (which I was prepared to help with). Just his acknowledging what he did not know was crucially important to me (I did enough research to know answers to some difficult questions, and did my best to ask prospective lawyers questions in a way they would not realize I was testing them . . . and, frankly, at least three out of five were outright wrong, and none were entirely right but at least one in ten, or so, would overtly acknowledge what they knew and did not know, and acknowledged the questions were something they would need to research further). Together we solved my problems then, for which I was and still am grateful.
But yeah, I understand the problem. I'd dread needing a lawyer for a really, really important matter about as much as I dread needing a brain or heart surgeon, and perhaps more because my general sense is that a higher percentage of physicians engaged in brain or cardiac surgery are going to do enough research to know what they are doing if I need them to operate on me (or a family member), and in any event that is an area of knowledge I could not help myself much with anyway, so I'd just have to go with what Ontario health services has to offer.
In any event, one way to find the names of lawyers, and some representative work by them related to immigration, is to research PR RO cases in Federal Court and IAD decisions, which ordinarily include the lawyer's names in published decisions. See
https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/ or
https://decisions.fct-cf.gc.ca/fc-cf/en/0/ann.do
