+1(514) 937-9445 or Toll-free (Canada & US) +1 (888) 947-9445

October 11th 2017 - Citizenship Applicants under 3/5 rule

Nanny16

Full Member
Jul 5, 2011
34
0
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
Hello,

Can anyone help me with this question? In the past 6 years, I have spent more than 183 days in Italy. However, they are not consecutive days, I went for a period of 3 months each time. I have gone to study, and visit family. Do I still need to get a police check from Italy? Thank you so much in advance!
 

mreda13

Star Member
Nov 28, 2016
57
23
The observation by HamiltonApplicant is a well-known, well-understood, and commonly given suggestion or recommendation, for good and rather obvious reasons.

Any circumstance which corroborates residency ties in Canada tends to corroborate presence. The more the whole picture reflects a person whose life is well-settled and centralized in Canada, the more comfortable a total stranger bureaucrat is likely to be that the applicant's account of days in Canada does not need closer examination.

In contrast, any circumstance which indicates ties abroad or the possibility the applicant is not fully settled in Canada . . . such as one spouse applying when the other does not, suggesting the couple has not fully settled together in Canada . . . can lead to questions, can point to what CIC and IRCC have, at various times, referred to as risk indicators or reasons-to-question-residency (or question presence).

As for "the number of days in Canada," in particular, in the routine application the only direct evidence of the number of days actually spent in Canada is the applicant's signature on the presence calculator attesting (claiming) that all dates of entry into Canada and dates of exit from Canada are accurately listed. This calculation is thus dependent on an inference that the applicant remained in Canada on the days between the last reported date of entry and the next reported date of exit. All it takes is some doubt in a total stranger bureaucrats thinking to put that inference at risk.

After all, there is no requirement at all that a PR have been employed while in Canada, but not only must the applicant report all work history during the relevant time period, there must be NO gaps in that work history (thus, for example, periods of unemployment must be specifically reported). Full employment at a job in Canada corroborates (reinforces) the proposition the applicant was present in Canada during that time. And that is the biggest reason work history is required. (And the converse: any indication of employment abroad will raise questions about time spent in Canada.)

Risk indicators do not mean an application will fail. So it is not as if spouses applying separately will in itself cause a problem. But the vast majority of applicants prefer to avoid non-routine processing, and especially prefer to avoid RQ. Thus, most applicants prudently pay attention to more than just their accounting of the number of days when deciding the right time to apply. Waiting a little longer to apply together with a spouse is simply the more prudent approach since the respective residency and presence information will, as HamiltonApplicant has said, reinforce evidence of living a life together in Canada, thus reinforcing the declaration of days present in Canada.

If, however, one spouse has indeed spent many more days abroad, and especially if the spouse has continued to have employment abroad, or has other circumstances which might invite non-routine processing (that is, has other risk indicators), separate applications make sense. No reason bogging both applications down because one gets non-routine processing and elevated scrutiny.




In the presence calculator, in work history, and in address history, the applicant needs to cover the full period of time in the relevant time period. When the 3/5 and pre-PR credit rules take effect, this will probably be the last five years or since coming to Canada, whichever was more recent. (We need to wait to see actual language in form and presence calculator and instructions to know for sure how IRCC will describe the relevant time period.) NO gaps. And no gaps means no gaps.

How to describe, in the application, such as in the work history section, a settling-in period of time prior to starting a job or starting school, is a personal decision, recognizing again that the applicant should not leave any gaps in time, and otherwise the applicant needs to give his or her best, HONEST answer. "Settling-in" should work for some, "looking for work" might work from someone else, "waiting for xxx to start" might work, and for some simply "unemployed" or "between university sessions," might work. As long as there is no gap, what is stated is an honest answer and is otherwise consistent (a nine month settling-in period, in contrast, could raise questions), the details will ordinarily not be important.

No need to overthink things.

Likewise the tax filing obligation section. No need to overthink things. Here again, prospective applicants need to wait and see what the actual form and instructions say. And follow the instructions. But sure, like the current form it will probably ask for information about the preceding tax YEARS (six currently, five after the law changes). For an application filed in 2017, obviously (for most) the most recent TAX YEAR is 2016.
Thank you for your detailed answers as always!
 

ibry

Hero Member
Jul 25, 2010
660
86
Canada
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
LANDED..........
2011
What razerblade pointed out is really a valid point so according to it submission of Police Certificate is ridiculous and it should go away in new forms.
Amen and it will
 

ibry

Hero Member
Jul 25, 2010
660
86
Canada
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
LANDED..........
2011
Hello,

Can anyone help me with this question? In the past 6 years, I have spent more than 183 days in Italy. However, they are not consecutive days, I went for a period of 3 months each time. I have gone to study, and visit family. Do I still need to get a police check from Italy? Thank you so much in advance!
For the current rule prior to Oct 11. Yes you do
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nanny16

Toronto456

Star Member
Oct 6, 2017
63
14
The observation by HamiltonApplicant is a well-known, well-understood, and commonly given suggestion or recommendation, for good and rather obvious reasons.

Any circumstance which corroborates residency ties in Canada tends to corroborate presence. The more the whole picture reflects a person whose life is well-settled and centralized in Canada, the more comfortable a total stranger bureaucrat is likely to be that the applicant's account of days in Canada does not need closer examination.

In contrast, any circumstance which indicates ties abroad or the possibility the applicant is not fully settled in Canada . . . such as one spouse applying when the other does not, suggesting the couple has not fully settled together in Canada . . . can lead to questions, can point to what CIC and IRCC have, at various times, referred to as risk indicators or reasons-to-question-residency (or question presence).

As for "the number of days in Canada," in particular, in the routine application the only direct evidence of the number of days actually spent in Canada is the applicant's signature on the presence calculator attesting (claiming) that all dates of entry into Canada and dates of exit from Canada are accurately listed. This calculation is thus dependent on an inference that the applicant remained in Canada on the days between the last reported date of entry and the next reported date of exit. All it takes is some doubt in a total stranger bureaucrats thinking to put that inference at risk.

After all, there is no requirement at all that a PR have been employed while in Canada, but not only must the applicant report all work history during the relevant time period, there must be NO gaps in that work history (thus, for example, periods of unemployment must be specifically reported). Full employment at a job in Canada corroborates (reinforces) the proposition the applicant was present in Canada during that time. And that is the biggest reason work history is required. (And the converse: any indication of employment abroad will raise questions about time spent in Canada.)

Risk indicators do not mean an application will fail. So it is not as if spouses applying separately will in itself cause a problem. But the vast majority of applicants prefer to avoid non-routine processing, and especially prefer to avoid RQ. Thus, most applicants prudently pay attention to more than just their accounting of the number of days when deciding the right time to apply. Waiting a little longer to apply together with a spouse is simply the more prudent approach since the respective residency and presence information will, as HamiltonApplicant has said, reinforce evidence of living a life together in Canada, thus reinforcing the declaration of days present in Canada.

If, however, one spouse has indeed spent many more days abroad, and especially if the spouse has continued to have employment abroad, or has other circumstances which might invite non-routine processing (that is, has other risk indicators), separate applications make sense. No reason bogging both applications down because one gets non-routine processing and elevated scrutiny.




In the presence calculator, in work history, and in address history, the applicant needs to cover the full period of time in the relevant time period. When the 3/5 and pre-PR credit rules take effect, this will probably be the last five years or since coming to Canada, whichever was more recent. (We need to wait to see actual language in form and presence calculator and instructions to know for sure how IRCC will describe the relevant time period.) NO gaps. And no gaps means no gaps.

How to describe, in the application, such as in the work history section, a settling-in period of time prior to starting a job or starting school, is a personal decision, recognizing again that the applicant should not leave any gaps in time, and otherwise the applicant needs to give his or her best, HONEST answer. "Settling-in" should work for some, "looking for work" might work from someone else, "waiting for xxx to start" might work, and for some simply "unemployed" or "between university sessions," might work. As long as there is no gap, what is stated is an honest answer and is otherwise consistent (a nine month settling-in period, in contrast, could raise questions), the details will ordinarily not be important.

No need to overthink things.

Likewise the tax filing obligation section. No need to overthink things. Here again, prospective applicants need to wait and see what the actual form and instructions say. And follow the instructions. But sure, like the current form it will probably ask for information about the preceding tax YEARS (six currently, five after the law changes). For an application filed in 2017, obviously (for most) the most recent TAX YEAR is 2016.
Thanks a lot for detailed reply, really appreciate this.

Just to add further, my spouse is non working and she lived out of Canada for more than 183 days in 1 single country too in last 4 years. I have a daughter too she is 8 yrs old and I will apply for her in my application. But I am thinking to apply for my wife after 6 month as she is still short of 3 months and will need a police certificate too if we apply now.
 

aska-phd

Star Member
Oct 14, 2014
57
0
Please advise me if I need a police certificate :

In the last five years back from Oct. 11, 2017 to Oct. 11, 2012, my residency in Canada was as follows

entered July 1, 2012, left July 1, 2013 (stayed in another country from July 1,2013 till Jan. 10,2014).
entered again CANADA Jan. 10, 2014, STAYED UNTIL NOW Oct. 11, 2017 (Left a few days in different times during this period only
for conferences of a total of 1 month).
I became PR in May 6, 2015.

If we count back 4 years immediately from the date of application Oct. 11, 2017, it back to Oct. 11, 2013,
Do I need a police certificate for such long stay in the another country from July 1,2013 - Jan. 10, 2014?
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,183
Please advise me if I need a police certificate :

If we count back 4 years immediately from the date of application Oct. 11, 2017, it back to Oct. 11, 2013,
Do I need a police certificate for such long stay in the another country from July 1,2013 - Jan. 10, 2014?

For anyone foolish enough to not wait a few days
, to not wait long enough to be sure the rollout goes smoothly, to not wait long enough to avoid being among the very first applications which total-stranger-bureaucrats are processing in the steepest part of their learning curve (learning and applying new rules and new forms and new instructions), that is, for those who will apply on October 11, 2017, the relevant four year prohibitions period of time will be October 11, 2013 to October 10, 2017.

That will not change. That's statutory; that is prescribed by statutory provisions which are not changed by Bill C-6 (and for which there are no pending changes proposed in Parliament).

The form, however, will change. A new form with new instructions will become available, perhaps in time that day to actually make an application that day. It is crucial to read and follow the NEW instructions.

As to who must submit a police certificate, that is not likely to change but it could change. So applicants need to wait to see the new form and new instructions before they can know for sure whether they will be changes and if so what those will be. As previously noted, the changes could range from revising the threshold (currently total 183 days in a country, and this could go up or down, but most likely will stay the same) to removing the requirement altogether (the latter perhaps because the applicant's declarations as to prohibitions already covers the relevant qualification for citizenship, which is no convictions in a foreign country during the previous four years).

Assuming there is no change (which is the most likely scenario), that is that the current criteria applies (183 days total in preceding four years), the October 11, 2017 applicant will need to check "yes" and provide a police certificate if the applicant spent a total of 183 days or more in a particular country (other than Canada) between October 11, 2013 and October 10, 2017.

Nonetheless, be sure to read the instructions and respond according to what the new form actually requires.
 

applicant361

Star Member
Mar 19, 2015
165
21
Hello

Two quick questions:
1) when you file taxes jointly do both names appear on notice of assessment? our NoA only shows my husband's name and not mine and I wonder if we made a mistake.

2) should I send in notice of assessment or the Option C print out?

Thank you in advance
 

aska-phd

Star Member
Oct 14, 2014
57
0
''Write all your Canadian addresses for the six (6) years before the date of your application or since you became a permanent resident, whichever is more recent ("the relevant period"), including the postal codes.''

What does it mean, ''whichever is more recent''?
If I landed May 2015, which is more recent than six years before application date, I should consider only addresses since I landed.
Am I right?
 

CANADIANZ

Hero Member
Mar 30, 2017
386
199
Hello

Two quick questions:
1) when you file taxes jointly do both names appear on notice of assessment? our NoA only shows my husband's name and not mine and I wonder if we made a mistake.

2) should I send in notice of assessment or the Option C print out?

Thank you in advance
Hello,

1) You didn’t make any mistake, even if couples file their taxes together, notice of assessmemts is always for individuals separately.

2) You do not need to send any tax related documents like NOAs, T1 or Option C with your application.
 

AnkitaD

Full Member
Oct 6, 2017
31
2
Need help on below, Can someone please let me know

" You must include photo copies of the Biographical pages of any passports or travel documents "

Does it mean, all pages of pass ports or only first and last page of the passports
 

cynti

Member
May 20, 2012
16
1
Hello everyone,

Happy Sunday :). I have a question regarding the police certificate as I am a bit confused. I lived in the United States from 2006 to 2014 and landed as a PR on January 17th, 2014. If I decide to send my application on the first of November 2017, do I still need to provide a police certificate from the US?
The way I see things is that from January 17,2014 to November 1st 2017, it's 1384 days and from January 17,2014 to January 17,2014 it's 1461 days. So I technically stayed 77 days in another country during the four (4) years immediately before the date of your application SO I DON'T NEED a police certificate. Am I wrong or right? Or Should I just wait until next year to apply?
p.s: I dont wan to do the fbi background check as it takes between 10-12 weeks so if I do need a police certificate, I am better off waiting.
ANY input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you and have a nice day.
 

AnkitaD

Full Member
Oct 6, 2017
31
2
Also, I have a other question, I will be applying with my Husband, do I need to prepare two cover letter or only single cover letter ?