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Will implementation of bill C-6 open flood gates of applications?

HamiltonApplicant

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Hello all,

It looks like the bill c-6' most important feature, the restoration 3/5 rule, will come to effect in fall 2017! Do you think that will open flood gates of applications and delay the whole process and lengthen it to years as it was before?

I become PR in 2010 and moved to Canada in 2012. In 2015, I decided to apply for citizenship, thinking that 3/5 rule is place. To my surprise, I found out that a 4/6 rule was in place instead. Finally, I applied for citizenship in late 2016 and become a citizen in late spring 2017; six months in all! I personally feel six months paper work under 4/6 is as good as 24 month long paper work under 3/5 rule, any thoughts?

A lot of people are going to ask these questions till 3/5 rule is fully implemented, that's why I am asking this question...
 
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canvis2006

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It doesn't matter, people still have to qualify for citizenship whether its a year early or later. People still take trips out of Canada for various purposes.
Yes initially it may look like that but sooner or later everyone would qualify and send the app in.
Focus on getting it right and forget about terms such as "floodgates" etc this is nothing but causes panic and fearmongering.
I got mine when it was a 3/4 rule, and got it in 1yr 4 months back in 2010/2011.
 

HamiltonApplicant

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It doesn't matter, people still have to qualify for citizenship whether its a year early or later. People still take trips out of Canada for various purposes.
Yes initially it may look like that but sooner or later everyone would qualify and send the app in.
Focus on getting it right and forget about terms such as "floodgates" etc this is nothing but causes panic and fear mongering.
I got mine when it was a 3/4 rule, and got it in 1yr 4 months back in 2010/2011.
Let us consider a hypothetical situation:
A PR named X become eligible to apply for citizenship on the 31st of Oct 2017 under 4/6 rule. On the 1st of November 2017, the new 3/5 comes into effect. On the 2nd November, X decides to apply for the citizenship. The question is what date should X write as date of application: 31st Oct 2017 or 1st Nov 2017?
 
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dpenabill

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. . . bill c-6' most important feature, the restoration 3/5 rule,

I become PR in 2010 and moved to Canada in 2012. In 2015, I decided to apply for citizenship, thinking that 3/5 rule is place. To my surprise, I found out that a 4/6 rule was in place instead.

A lot of people are going to ask these questions till 3/5 rule is fully implemented . . .

On the 1st of November 2017, the new 3/4 comes into effect.
New rule will be a 3/5 years presence requirement. Pre-June 11, 2015 there was a 3/4 years residency requirement.

The new 3/5 presence rule is NOT the restoration of the prior rule except that pre-PR credit is restored.

The difference warrants emphasis. There was a confluence of factors which led to the growing backlog of citizenship applications, not the least of which was that the residency requirement was not only vague and variously interpreted, there was literally no way to predict which standard for assessing residency would be applied unless the applicant applied relying on meeting the strict 3/4 actual physical presence test. This meant a high percentage of applications were non-routine, taking up CIC resources and time, delaying the processing of all applications but especially resulting in extraordinary delays for many non-routine applications. During the same period of time CIC implemented multiple efforts to interdict and crack down on fraud, with the notorious April 2012 OB 407 looming large in that, the implementation of which nearly brought the processing of citizenship applications to a standstill. With more than 15,000 applications streaming into CIC every month, and only a trickle of applications reaching a conclusion for nearly a half year, the already ballooning backlog became massive.

Bill C-24 reversed the playing field. As of June 11, 2015 the pool of newly eligible applicants was suddenly reduced to a trickle, reducing new applications to a small percentage of the typical number before June 2015. In addition to the greatly reduced pool of potential new applicants, given the sudden increase by a year in the minimum presence required, the elimination of the pre-PR credit further reduced the pool of eligible applicants, with the net result of a dramatically smaller pool of eligible PRs for a full year and a significantly smaller pool for many months beyond that.

Combined with efficiencies gained from the easier to verify physical presence requirement in conjunction with a much smaller pool of potential applicants, and changes to procedure eliminating a referral to a Citizenship Judge except for residency or presence cases, CIC and then IRCC has been able to process the backlog and otherwise dramatically reduce processing time lines in general.

The change to a 3/5 rule, particularly in conjunction with the restoration of credit for pre-PR time, will of course have the opposite impact, and as of the day the new rules take effect the pool of eligible PRs will suddenly increase a quarter million or so. There is bound to be a large surge in new applications, by the thousands if not tens of thousands.

But that will be temporary. A one-time bump.

The stream of newly eligible applicants will immediately drop back to a number proportional to the stream of new immigrants coming to Canada. In the meantime, the efficiencies in procedure will remain intact. Improved screening capabilities have helped and will continue to help move applications forward more timely. Improved technology likewise. The main thing is that an actual physical presence test in conjunction with enhanced border crossing data means that IRCC can more efficiently process applications today.

So sure, there is bound to be a surge, perhaps a very large surge in new applications immediately following the change, directly due to the simple fact that a quarter million or so immigrants will become eligible overnight. And sure that will likely lead to longer processing times, but that should only last as long as it takes for IRCC to process the surge itself, and there is no reason to otherwise anticipate delays approaching anything like they were between 2010 and late 2013.

So yeah, a temporary and not too severe slowing down of processing times can be anticipated. Should not be a big deal.

Of course that is assuming IRCC makes the transition smoothly . . . unfortunately there is no guarantee of this, since as bureaucracies go, any large bureaucracy can struggle with changes, and as a bureaucracy Canadian immigration has historically tended to really struggle with changes . . . but nonetheless, my guess is there will be a slowdown but not a huge one and not one which will last beyond a year or so. (Caveat: back in 2012 I was way off in my guessing about the impact of OB 407, and I have been quite surprised by how much the processing time line has been reduced in the last two years, so I cannot exactly offer a track record instilling confidence in my time line forecasts.)
 

Bs65

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Let us consider a hypothetical situation:
A PR named X become eligible to apply for citizenship on the 31st of Oct 2017 under 4/6 rule. On the 1st of November 2017, the new 3/4 comes into effect. On the 2nd November, X decides to apply for the citizenship. The question is what date should X write as date of application: 31st Oct 2017 or 1st Nov 2017?
Assume 3/4 is a typo given the C6 rule is 3/5.

Anyway my answer and others can comment the date of application should be November 1 or later else any date before that would be subject to 4/6 based simply on the application date.
 

NewUser2018

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there will definately be slight 10-20% increase in apps but not many who qualify currently or even c24 can come up with $650, i know many people who qualify under c24 but cant cough up $650 especialy families and single immigrants working paychec to paychec. Thanks lord i already saved and will apply day 1 effective this fall.
 

HamiltonApplicant

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there will definately be slight 10-20% increase in apps but not many who qualify currently or even c24 can come up with $650, i know many people who qualify under c24 but cant cough up $650 especialy families and single immigrants working paychec to paychec. Thanks lord i already saved and will apply day 1 effective this fall.
Good to hear that! Also factor in that you might have to come with an additional $160+some for passport if you plan to travel....
 

Marooned2

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Its really hard to predict to what extend it may affect the processing delays. I don't think anyone can surely answer this, we just have to wait and see.
 

stalintouch

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there will definately be slight 10-20% increase in apps but not many who qualify currently or even c24 can come up with $650, i know many people who qualify under c24 but cant cough up $650 especialy families and single immigrants working paychec to paychec. Thanks lord i already saved and will apply day 1 effective this fall.
100% agree, I know many people who are eligible and have been eligible for a long time yet they just dont care that much, I'm one of the few ones in my circle of friends and pals who wants to apply as soon as becoming eligible
 

HamiltonApplicant

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100% agree, I know many people who are eligible and have been eligible for a long time yet they just dont care that much, I'm one of the few ones in my circle of friends and pals who wants to apply as soon as becoming eligible
If you don't travel much and/or don't care about voting or have a equally valuable passport, a PR is as good as citizenship; No need to apply for citizenship...
 
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HamiltonApplicant

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100% agree, I know many people who are eligible and have been eligible for a long time yet they just dont care that much, I'm one of the few ones in my circle of friends and pals who wants to apply as soon as becoming eligible
If you don't travel much and/or don't care about voting or have a equally valuable passport, a PR is as good as citizenship; No need to apply for citizenship...
 

Siar

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If you don't travel much and/or don't care about voting or have a equally valuable passport, a PR is as good as citizenship; No need to apply for citizenship...
Yes but even if you don't travel much, you still have to satisfy the residency requirement 2/5 if you are only PR whereas no need if you are canadian. I say that because you never know, especially if you have your parents abroad, and for whatever reason you have to travel to spend time with them. For exemple.
 

itsmyid

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Well, we will find out in a few months whether all these guesses or observations are true representation of the reality - if the $650 fee is a main reason of declining applications , then with c-6 the increase of applications would not be as significant as some predicted here , but I highly doubt that would be the case, there are probably some families that can't afford the $650, but they are most likely just a very small percentage of potential applicants and would not have much impact on the overall statistics
 

dpenabill

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Regardless of other factors, the number of eligible PRs will suddenly increase by a Quarter MILLION or more the day the 3/5 rule takes effect.

Whatever deterrent effect the fee has, the number of new applications will remain proportional to the pool of eligible applicants. Historically, overall more than four in five immigrants to Canada are naturalized (and long term, it is more than nine in ten).


The explanation:

The fee has been in this range for years now. Its impact on the number of new applications being made can be expected to remain relatively constant.

In particular, whatever effect the cost has, the incoming stream of new applications will nonetheless be proportional to how many PRs are eligible for citizenship. That number will suddenly increase by a Quarter MILLION or more the day the 3/5 rule takes effect. Thus, even if the high fee discourages applications from a significant percentage of eligible PRs, it is virtually certain that there will be a surge of new applications made following the restoration of credit for pre-PR time and implementation of the 3/5 rule.

While the stream of new applications being made annually has fluctuated some time to time (and of course big changes in the rules, like the 2015 change to the 4/6 rule, have had a direct impact resulting in larger than usual fluctuations), overall, historically, there is a relatively constant correlation between the number of immigrants (those becoming PRs) and the number becoming naturalized citizens. More than four in five actually. (See various tables of data provided by Statistics Canada starting at http://www.statcan.gc.ca/eng/start )

For those who actually look at the data, do not be thrown off by lower percentages for the most recent years. When you drill into the data there is a clear correlation between how long immigrants have been in Canada and becoming citizens -- obviously, historically for the previous quarter century the absolute minimum was three years (with some two as PR plus two pre-PR) -- but eventually (perhaps eight to ten years) the ratio approaches the previous decade's percentage, and thus exceeds the percentage for all immigrants (as of the 2011 census, more than 85% of all immigrants had become Canadian citizens).

The 2011 census, for example, showed only 36.7 percent of those who immigrated in 2006 and 2007 had become naturalized citizens, but this group had just barely passed the minimum time in Canada requirements for becoming a citizen. For the five years prior to that it was 77.2 percent, a clear correlation showing that the longer in Canada more became a citizen. For the three decades prior to that, the percentage for all three periods show that over 90 percent of those immigrants became citizens.

That is, overall, historically, nine out of ten immigrants to Canada become Canadian citizens (and this includes statistics for immigrants prior to 1977 when obtaining Canadian citizenship required losing home country citizenship, a significant deterrent for many, particularly UK, U.S., and some European citizens), with 85.6% overall (as of 2011; and again recognizing that the overall percentage is brought down by the fact that it takes about eight to ten years for the ratio to stabilize).

There are other statistics which, requiring more extrapolation, suggest that for immigrants within a year or so of becoming eligible for citizenship, the percentage applying for citizenship may be half or so of those becoming eligible, but at least a third.

We know that an additional quarter million or so immigrants will suddenly become eligible the day the 3/5 rule takes effect. Which means the pool of eligible applicants will suddenly increase by at least a quarter million. Whether one extrapolates from the overall percentage of immigrants-citizens (85.6%) to ascertain a forecast of new applications, which would point to 200,000+ new, additional applications (over the number currently applying) within months, or the more conservative one-in-three ratio, at least 80,000 additional applications, over and above the number currently being made month-to-month, can be anticipated in the months following the implementation of the new rules.

That will have at least some impact on processing times. Can anyone credibly estimate how much an impact? All I can forecast is that it is likely to be enough to encourage those who are eligible under current rules to make their application before the new rules take effect. And, overall my expectation is that while there will be longer processing times as a result of this, IRCC is in much better shape to handle a surge like this now than it has been in the past, so I do not anticipate a disaster. Moreover, while there will almost certainly be a substantial surge immediately, I'd anticipate it taking months for the increased pool of eligible applicants to actually make their applications, and the fee may indeed be a significant factor in this regard.

Relatively fast paced applications appear to be complete in around six months currently. Ten months to a year might be the norm for applications made after the new rules take effect, perhaps a little longer initially but then gradually reduced over time.

Some take-aways:
-- Anticipate a surge in applications.
-- Those eligible under current rules may want to apply before new rules take effect
-- Those who will suddenly become eligible may want to consider waiting to apply a bit, giving IRCC time to make the transition


The latter risks falling behind in a queue of increasing size. But big bureaucracies tend to struggle and stumble when there are major changes. So it may be a tough call: whether to be among the early new rule applicants and bear the risk of being a learning curve, adaptation curve victim. Or to wait awhile and risk falling behind in an abruptly growing queue.
 

dpenabill

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An additional take-away:

There is at least enough probability of a surge and resulting slowdown in processing times to warn that non-routine applications will have a much higher risk for falling into a backlog bog. For those who want to minimize the risk of falling into a dark hole of stalled processing, which tends to be a real risk during big transitions, be sure:
-- to take your time to carefully read and follow the instructions
-- do rough draft applications and be very careful when completing the final draft to be submitted
-- get the presence calculation dates right: be precisely accurate and complete
-- give yourself a good margin over the minimum
-- proof-read the application at least twice, carefully and thoroughly, paying special attention to all dates; if possible, have a trusted family member or friend proof-read the application as well
 
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dpenabill

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Reasons for becoming a citizen:

Some of us lead such righteous, law-abiding lives, certain all our business dealings are so above-board there is no chance of trumped-up criminal charges let alone there being a risk of being guilty of crimes for which six months or more of imprisonment might be imposed, there is no worry about potential inadmissibility and loss of PR status. But many of us, in contrast, are not so righteous, and almost all of us can slip at some point in our lives, a driving while impaired resulting in a serious injury accident for example, a dispute or conflict with someone leading to accusations, exaggerated or otherwise, for another.

But those who have children should be particularly cognizant of the risks of inadmissibility for criminality. The IAD decisions are rife with sad, sad tales. PR came to Canada as a young child with immigrating parent. For whatever reason, parents did not go through the process of getting the child citizenship. In his mid to late teens the child has some minor criminal entanglements, ends up on probation. Once on probation, a grant of citizenship is prohibited and the time does not count toward presence. Years pass before the PR becomes eligible for citizenship, and the PR slips again, still something minor, but if there is a period of probation of two years, that will mean the PR has to wait two more years before starting over for time to begin to count toward being eligible for citizenship. The number of PRs who end up perpetually prohibited from citizenship because of occasional, and often rather minor criminality, who came to Canada as a child, who have never really known any life other than that as a Canadian, is remarkably high. And then there is a more serious slip. Maybe it does not happen until they are in their 30s or even 40s, and in the published cases I have seen some older than 50. Sill not exactly a major crime. But with a history of minor offences, a medium-level offence can mean a formal sentence of six months or more. Then IRCC issues an inadmissibility report. There is a hearing. A real lot of these cases have very sad outcomes.

Unfortunately, those mostly affected tend to have some learning or mental health problems, autism appears all too often involved, and those suffering from bi-polar depression, or anxiety disorders.

Immigrants with non-citizen children should seriously take into account the risks their children could face long-term if they fail to take the steps toward getting them citizenship. In this regard, at least Bill C-6 has opened a path to citizenship for children which is not totally dependent on the eligibility of the child's parent.


Otherwise, there is the hassle of applying for a new PR card every five years:

Note that Canada has made the application for new PR cards almost as onerous as applying for citizenship. I am associated with some long, long term PRs (PRs for decades) who recently decided it was time to become a citizen because of the inconvenience involved in having to periodically re-apply for a new PR card. This has become an issue particularly with the eTA requirements making it more inconvenient for PRs with visa-exempt passports (the long term PRs I know are mostly UK and European passport holders).
 
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