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Applying Citizenship from living abroad

Ranbir4u

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Mar 6, 2012
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Hi friends, I am currently living Canada since June 2012 and got my PR since Feb 2014. I have fulfilled my residency obligations required for Citizenship per the Bill c6 rule and waiting for the rule to be implemented in fall to formally submit my application. Currently I am considering an employment abroad through secondment but need to make sure of the following before I make a decision:
1) I know that my stay outside Canada from now until my application date won't be counted towards my physical residency days even though I continue my payroll with Canadian company. Since I already fulfilled my residency obligation, once the law gets into effect, can I apply for our citizenship from Abroa using an authorized representative
2) if point 1 is possible, will this way of submission make my application as non-routine?
3) is it mandatory to keep my payroll with a candian company?
4) in case of any delay in getting citizenship, can I renew my PR from abroad either using an authorized representative or a friends address just to mail out the application?

Your valuable comments will help me to make an important career decision. Thanks in advance
 

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You're supposed to be in Canada when you submit a citizenship application. If you submit while living outside of Canada - you can expect the application to be non-routine and for CIC to examine your application more closely. The bill didn't really change anything with regards to that. It worked that way before intent to reside came along and anyone applying from outside of Canada typically ended up with a more complicated application. Note that you're typically given very little notice for the citizenship test and oath (and notifications go to your address in Canada). You'll need to be prepared to fly to Canada to take the test/oath with very little notice.
 

andrewmadrid

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Mar 31, 2013
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I am in the same situation. I just hit the new C6 3 year requirement last month as a PR. My wife and I are moving to the UK in August for 2 years for her to do a MS program. I understand that the 3 year residency requirement will go into effect in the fall (while we are in the UK).

So should I too be able to apply from the UK?

If I have to fly back at a moments notice for the test/oath I can make that work. At the moment we plan to move back to Canada after she finishes her MS program.
 

canvis2006

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In my 17 yrs so far in Canada, I've never heard or read about anyone having done the application and received citizenship from abroad.
So it seems pretty difficult to find someone on a forum with such experience.

Go ahead and try it, let us know how it goes......
 
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itsmyid

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In my 17 yrs so far in Canada, I've never heard or read about anyone having done the application and received citizenship from abroad.
So it seems pretty difficult to find someone on a forum with such experience.

Go ahead and try it, let us know how it goes......
Deep down they know it won't work, but they still want to find at least one example so they can tell themselves maybe they will get lucky too
 
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dpenabill

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Why won't it work?
The problem with applying while abroad has been discussed at length and often in this forum.

As others have observed, there is no reported experience (let alone credible report) of it ever having worked, going back to before there was any intent to reside requirement. Just leaving Canada to live abroad while an application is pending can be problematic, let alone attempting to apply while living abroad. For many reasons which, again, have been discussed in the forum at length and often.

And here again; for example:

In my 17 yrs so far in Canada, I've never heard or read about anyone having done the application and received citizenship from abroad.
So it seems pretty difficult to find someone on a forum with such experience.

Go ahead and try it, let us know how it goes......
And I tend to agree with this as well:

Deep down they know it won't work, but they still want to find at least one example so they can tell themselves maybe they will get lucky too
There are times when some participants in this forum request, or even demand, proof that the process will not work a certain way. And more than a few will insist that absent such proof, it is reasonable to assert that things can work that way. Like applying for citizenship while living abroad.

You have quibbled with what I believe to be obviously true, that applicants who do not appear to deserve citizenship are at a much higher risk not only for elevated scrutiny but a more skeptical assessment.

Most of us who participate here to share what we have learned and know and understand about the system and the process are not into engaging in arguments about these things. At any given time, the number of non-members accessing the forum, presumably in search of information, out-number the members online by three or five to one. So many of us here are trying to respond to queries as best we can, recognizing that for every question asked there are probably dozens more interested in learning the answer or more about similar questions.

Of course anything any one of us posts is For-What-It's-Worth, and no one should rely on what any of us posts without approaching it cautiously, critically, and considered in context with the information and instructions provided by IRCC, among other authoritative and official sources.

All that said, I anticipate that there have been some who have applied for citizenship while they are living abroad and succeeded. There are probably three groups of such applicants; yes, this part of my observations is based largely on extrapolation and some speculation:
-- applicants assisted by consultants
-- applicants who make misrepresentations, particularly as to address history and current address
-- applicants in particular, probably fairly rare situations, who on the face of things well appear to deserve citizenship

The first two groups probably overlap considerably, and probably some of the third group also have used a consultant. I anticipate that among the successful cases, the number who succeeded by fudging (misrepresenting) is the far larger group.

But as others have pointed out, the absence of any reported success doing this tends to weigh heavily for the proposition that, at the least, this is not a viable option.

Anyone who is seriously considering trying it would be wise to at least consult with a reputable, experienced immigration and citizenship lawyer, a good one. If it is possible, they will have a far better idea about if and when it should work. In any event, anyone who does attempt to do this should be sure to truthfully provide every detail of information, including, in particular, the disclosure of their actual residential address history based on where they have actually lived each month (not using an address they can say was their residential address). Such applicants can anticipate a high risk that their applications will be very carefully if not critically screened.

All that said, it is possible that this government will be more liberal than Canada has been in the past, when even the approach for a Liberal government tended to approach applicants with elevated scrutiny and skepticism if they were living abroad while the application was in process, let alone if they applied while living abroad. (It was under a Liberal government when, in 2005, CIC adopted indications of having returned to Canada to attend the test, or to attend the oath, as a reason to question the applicant's residency.)


Recognizing why the impending implementation of the 3/5 rule has increased interest in this:

I realize that there is increased interest in this, far more so than there was when the 3/4 residency rule was in effect (before there was an intent to reside requirement), because the change to a far more liberal presence-requirement will suddenly make many PRs eligible for citizenship who have not been eligible and who have, in the meantime, either already moved abroad (temporarily or otherwise) or already had plans to do so in the near future. Many of the latter are not eligible now and will not be until the 3/5 rule takes effect. By then they will be abroad. So obviously they have some interest in whether it will be possible.

Additionally it may be worth considering that persons who are abroad for clearly temporary reasons may have better odds of successfully doing this. In the past, CIC and IRCC have tended to approach some PRs and citizenship applicants more liberally, perhaps even overtly more favourably, when it was apparent the individual was abroad for an obviously temporary purpose, such as attending an advanced degree program or pursuant to a specific assignment abroad by a readily recognized Canadian employer (not self or family or friend owned businesses). This could possibly be filed under the category of who appears to deserve citizenship.



Note: I realize you quibble or otherwise decline to accept the way in which I use the word "deserves." I think the way I use it should be readily understood by and makes sense for the vast majority who are interested in these discussions. But, as a reminder, the way I use it is not about meeting the formal requirements for a grant of citizenship, but about the impression a real-life decision-maker is likely to have, and be influenced by, when examining and assessing the facts in an individual's application.
 

_MK_

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Let me chime in as well. I am in a similar situation as you. Dont qualify for current requirements but as soon as C6 is implemented I will be able to apply. Have been living in Canada for 10 years at this point (5 years as student, 3 years on post graduate work permit, 2 years and counting as PR and employed). I recently got an offer to work abroad. Financially and career-wise, it is almost impossible to say no to this opportunity which is why I am exploring the same question as you.

There are no easy answers that I could find. You are expected to be in Canada while your application for citizenship is in process. If you choose to apply and leave or apply through a representative while abroad, you would still be expected to come back to Canada at least twice with short notice (a week to a month) for the exam and oath. You would have to truthfully declare that your current job/address is outside Canada. This will likely result in a RQ or some other information request and will make your application non-routine.

If you, like me, have enough proof that you actually lived in Canada as you indicated in your application, such as mortgage/rent payments, bank statements showing numerous transactions, active phone bills showing calls made during your residency, etc, there is a good chance that the application will be approved while you are living/working outside Canada but the chances of it being routine is very slim and will take a long time to complete.

I suggest you talk to a good lawyer about this before you make your decision and if there is a chance to push your secondment by 6 months or more, perhaps explore that. Also when you are doing a secondment, depending on the length, you might technically be living in your Canada address as this is usually considered temporary. Obviously your physical presence days stop incrementing, but for tax purposes you could still be a resident. It might be helpful if you have to prove ties to Canada while living abroad.

If you do talk to a lawyer, let us know how it went.
 
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links18

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Note: I realize you quibble or otherwise decline to accept the way in which I use the word "deserves." I think the way I use it should be readily understood by and makes sense for the vast majority who are interested in these discussions. But, as a reminder, the way I use it is not about meeting the formal requirements for a grant of citizenship, but about the impression a real-life decision-maker is likely to have, and be influenced by, when examining and assessing the facts in an individual's application.
Dpenabill, please point to the legal basis for concluding that a person residing outside of Canada cannot be granted Canadian citizenship, which seems the conclusion of several posters in this thread. Is there one? I'd really like to know. I don't care about practical considerations bearing on how a trier of fact forms an impression about a particular applicant. I want to know if there is or is not a legal bar to this? This is a genuine question, not a statement that there is none. I can find no basis for discriminating against an applicant who resides outside of Canada in the Citizenship Act, but I don't know if perhaps IRCC has the regulatory authority to promulgate regulations that say it will only accept applications from persons in Canada and only process applications from those resident in Canada. I doubt that it does, but I don't have time in my life to do the legal research necessary to be certain. That's what people like you are for! ;)

I actually agree with you about the practical considerations involved and I have stated that multiple times all over this forum. I wouldn't recommend anyone try this if they don't actually have to, but what is an otherwise qualified applicant supposed to do? Not apply, because they are afraid? Commit misrepresentation, because they are afraid (a sin worse than applying from abroad)? Obviously, it makes sense to confer with a lawyer, but not all lawyers know what they are talking about; one can have even less confidence in the advice of "consultants."

My problem with making a distinction between people who are "qualified" for citizenship and those who "deserve" it is not "quibbling." I think this distinction is perilous as it leads to the outcome that some Canadians don't deserve to be Canadian even though they committed no offense. The law tells you what you can and cannot do and what outcomes you can expect for certain actions. If not for the sanction, or lack thereof, of the law these "undeserving Canadians" may have acted differently. If/When a future reactionary government comes to power that cares little for legal protections, these will be the first Canadians up for denaturalization under the idea that they committed some kind of "scam" when in fact they acted perfectly legally.

Sorry, anyone who qualified to be a Canadian under the law in place at the time deserves to be a Canadian. Period. Point Blank. "A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian," under the law. I can't stop people from having their own political views, but as far as I am concerned all Canadians who lawfully became Canadian under the law are equal and deserve to be Canadian and any law or belief that says otherwise is a violation of fundamental democratic principles and the rule of law. I have my own personal view that there are some people who probably deserve to be Canadian who the law says otherwise. That's unfortunate in my view, but the law can always be changed to become more inclusive. On the other hand, the threat of the law moving in the other direction, although remote, is real enough and it begins by making moral and political distinctions between otherwise equally lawful Canadians.
 
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dpenabill

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There are no easy answers that I could find. You are expected to be in Canada while your application for citizenship is in process. If you choose to apply and leave or apply through a representative while abroad, you would still be expected to come back to Canada at least twice with short notice (a week to a month) for the exam and oath. You would have to truthfully declare that your current job/address is outside Canada. This will likely result in a RQ or some other information request and will make your application non-routine.

If you, like me, have enough proof that you actually lived in Canada as you indicated in your application, such as mortgage/rent payments, bank statements showing numerous transactions, active phone bills showing calls made during your residency, etc, there is a good chance that the application will be approved while you are living/working outside Canada but the chances of it being routine is very slim and will take a long time to complete.

I suggest you talk to a good lawyer about this before you make your decision and if there is a chance to push your secondment by 6 months or more, perhaps explore that. Also when you are doing a secondment, depending on the length, you might technically be living in your Canada address as this is usually considered temporary. Obviously your physical presence days stop incrementing, but for tax purposes you could still be a resident. It might be helpful if you have to prove ties to Canada while living abroad.
Good observations.

While I do not know what the odds are, or the full extent of the risks, I would caution that the practical hurdles are probably daunting. In particular, if and when IRCC does not accept that presence is inferred for dates between the last reported entry and next reported exit, proof of actual presence for those periods of time can be more difficult than many surmise or anticipate. Obviously, it can and will also depend on just how skeptical an officer in IRCC (and if it comes to it, a Citizenship Judge) approaches the case, which in turn will depend on many factors, including whether the decision-maker has a more favourable or more negative impression of the applicant.

I absolutely and emphatically concur in the suggestion that anyone considering this should consult with a good lawyer.


Dpenabill, please point to the legal basis for concluding that a person residing outside of Canada cannot be granted Canadian citizenship, which seems the conclusion of several posters in this thread. Is there one? I'd really like to know. I don't care about practical considerations bearing on how a trier of fact forms an impression about a particular applicant. I want to know if there is or is not a legal bar to this?
This reminds me of frivolous arguments that the intent-to-reside requirement posed a risk of revocation proceedings for naturalized citizens if sometime after becoming a citizen they moved abroad. And unfortunately even a couple reputable lawyers (such as Lorne Waldman) advanced such arguments (albeit their activist motives for doing so were overtly apparent). Those arguments were based on very narrow and totally unlikely scenarios, requiring a tortured interpretation and essentially unfounded applications of the law (particularly as to law governing evidence and proof). They were a red herring, a distraction.

Since there have been no reports suggesting that applying for an ordinary grant of citizenship from abroad has been successful, it is readily apparent that even if it is possible, the circumstances in which it is possible are almost certainly very limited. (Note, the citizenship PDIs include instructions for making an application through an embassy abroad, but there is no indication this means that applications for an ordinary grant of citizenship will go far if made in this manner.)

Anyone sincerely interested in the prospect of doing this should see a qualified, reputable, experienced immigration and citizenship lawyer.

As I observed previously, a good lawyer should be able to give a better idea whether or not this is possible, a long-shot, or in what circumstances it might be a viable option.

Otherwise, the particular details in the individual case govern whether a specific applicant for citizenship meets the requirements and is entitled to a grant of citizenship pursuant to Section 5(1) in the Citizenship Act. The isolated fact that the applicant is living abroad at the time of making the application is just one detail. It is not nearly enough information to assess whether such an individual could have a qualified claim to grant citizenship.

I can readily think of scores of hypothetical situations in which such an individual will fail. I cannot identify any real-life situation in which success is likely.

To my view, it is not worth chasing this question into the rabbit warren of almost infinite possibilities based on an assumption that such an individual otherwise fully meets all the requirements and can meet the burden of proof. I doubt the efficacy of any such assumption in approaching this question.

As for your continued disputation about the influence of favourable versus negative impressions, I have made a concerted effort to focus on how the process actually works and to avoid conflating idealistic or moral perspectives about how things should work. There are two approaches for discussing how things should work. One is about making practical inferences based on how the process does work and extrapolating what, in practice, should happen given certain contingencies. I do a fair bit of this.

The other is about should in a more or less ideal sense. My references to the influence, in real-life stranger-bureaucrat decision-making, of favourable versus negative impressions, or more to the point, the appearance (or lack thereof) of deserving citizenship, have nothing to do with the latter, nothing to do with how the decision-making process should ideally work. As I have oft said, anyone who goes into the application process without acknowledging that impressions matter, that appearing to deserve citizenship matters, is a fool. That is simply recognizing there are intangible elements which can (and often do) influence a stranger-bureaucrat's decision-making, and that it would be foolish to ignore this.

I express many opinions. But (with some exceptions, usually prominently noted as such) I tend and try to steer clear of expressing opinions about how things should ideally work. To the extent I tend to drill deep into the weeds wrestling with somewhat abstract questions and nuances, the objective is not the exposition itself but to expose and illuminate the impact nuances and details can have in practical situations. How things actually work is subject to a wide, wide range of diverse and divergent variables. I endeavor to illuminate some of the more difficult aspects of how things do work in this regard. I hope and try to avoid slipping into this or that rabbit warren chasing frivolous hypotheticals.

Note, too, that the practical burden of actually proving physical presence in-between documented dates of entry and next exit should not be lightly glossed over. A legal requirement for obtaining a grant of citizenship is that the applicant sufficiently prove the facts establishing actual presence as prescribed. Here too, some caution needs to be exercised in making any assumptions about meeting this requirement. Remember, it is NOT enough to be physically present for the prescribed period of time. To actually meet the legal requirements the applicant must prove actual presence as prescribed. I will sometimes entertain the assumption that there is no issue meeting this legal requirement, but this assumption should not be entertained in scenarios clearly inviting questions about actual presence, and the mere fact of living abroad at the time an application is made will inherently invite such questions.

Edit to add observation: my observations are apart from those applicants who meet the presence requirements while abroad pursuant to provisions for certain government personnel. Perhaps it is for this group that the PDIs briefly, obliquely reference persons abroad making application through an embassy abroad.
 
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_MK_

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I would also point out that another reason why there arent too many documented cases is because this is an expensive idea to attain citizenship.
Even if you assume that the application is in order and it will get approved, you need to hire a lawyer which is not cheap. If by living abroad you mean living outside of North America, then just the cost of the flights are likely more than what most people can afford.
It is established already that the citizenship test and oath has to be done in Canada. If you are living somewhere in Europe/Asia/Africa while your application is ongoing, each flight back would set you back close to 2k or more.
So for each person:
~$500 application fee
~flights back twice $2k * 2 (could be as low as 1k if you are coming from the US and a lot more elsewhere especially since you have to buy them with short notice)
~$200-500 lawyer consultation fee. A lot more if they are your representative and handling the entire application.

So ballpark you are looking at about 5k minimum per person. Not every attainable if you are applying as a family. Most people on this forum wont be able to afford this and will never even consider it.
 

_MK_

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Good observations.

While I do not know what the odds are, or the full extent of the risks, I would caution that the practical hurdles are probably daunting. In particular, if and when IRCC does not accept that presence is inferred for dates between the last reported entry and next reported exit, proof of actual presence for those periods of time can be more difficult than many surmise or anticipate. Obviously, it can and will also depend on just how skeptical an officer in IRCC (and if it comes to it, a Citizenship Judge) approaches the case, which in turn will depend on many factors, including whether the decision-maker has a more favourable or more negative impression of the applicant.

I absolutely and emphatically concur in the suggestion that anyone considering this should consult with a good lawyer.
I agree that proving the reported dates could be challenging. In my opinion, if applicant has been employed in Canada, it should be possible to prove the physical presence without a lot of complication. A letter from employer, T4 from company for the 3 years, Notice of assessment showing Canadian sourced income, stamp on passport showing entry/exit and bills etc. For someone who has genuinely been living and working in Canada, this should be doable even if this ends up going all the way to a hearing with the judge.
 

notarookie007

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Oct 16, 2017
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Dear friends,
I am in the same boat, I took an academic position in Boston, MA in September and I am eligible to apply for citizenship under the new C-6 rules.

I personally know someone who applied (in late 2013), then immediately moved to San Fransisco for a postdoc position (and she clearly stated that in her app), and in 6 months she came back for the oath.

My situation is a bit more complex cause I am a US citizen, so I presume they can't really rely much on passport stamps because in many cases, there are none. I have proof of my trips however, not just in passport stamps, but also in airline tickets, employment verification, hotels, car rentals, etc. I have also documented proofs of addresses and employments.

Clearly I am going to apply, cause it's the only option I got.. it's either that or not do anything so I would rather roll the dice. Hence I am trying to improve my chances the best I can.

The CIC website clearly (to me at least) states that you can apply and then leave the country: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=911&top=5

My question is do I drive to Canada, send my application and then leave, or just send it from Boston?

Please advise...

It's the only choice I have, it's either that or not apply, so what am I to do?
 

CA17CA

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Mar 13, 2017
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Dear friends,
I am in the same boat, I took an academic position in Boston, MA in September and I am eligible to apply for citizenship under the new C-6 rules.

I personally know someone who applied (in late 2013), then immediately moved to San Fransisco for a postdoc position (and she clearly stated that in her app), and in 6 months she came back for the oath.

My situation is a bit more complex cause I am a US citizen, so I presume they can't really rely much on passport stamps because in many cases, there are none. I have proof of my trips however, not just in passport stamps, but also in airline tickets, employment verification, hotels, car rentals, etc. I have also documented proofs of addresses and employments.

Clearly I am going to apply, cause it's the only option I got.. it's either that or not do anything so I would rather roll the dice. Hence I am trying to improve my chances the best I can.

The CIC website clearly (to me at least) states that you can apply and then leave the country: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=911&top=5

My question is do I drive to Canada, send my application and then leave, or just send it from Boston?

Please advise...

It's the only choice I have, it's either that or not apply, so what am I to do?
-----
If I were you and no other options other than driving to Canada and apply, then do it. But I would do the following;
- I would try to spend 1-2 month in Canada before I apply (you mentioned you hold academic position so I believe your time is flexible and you can work remotely?)
- After 2 month being in Canada, then fill in the application and be clear on times and don't hide your current position or your movement to US.
- In your application, write your home address as the US address, and ensure the Mailing Address is a Canadian address. You can contact/arrange with any of your friends in Canada to put their address for your application. Once they receive anything for you in the mail, they can inform you right away.
- On paper, and as per the website, I do not see anything clearly or non-clearly mentions it is not possible to apply for Citizenship this way.

I am in your situation but a bit different. I applied already for Citizenship under the new roles. I am currently in Canada and will be for the next 4-5 month then move to US for a job. I have this thread already open for discussions.
http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/after-11-oct-2017-for-those-who-will-leave-canada-after-they-apply-discussion.523284/
 

notarookie007

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Oct 16, 2017
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unfortunately I am teaching a class this semester, and I can only go back to Canada for a prolonged period in May 2018. So it's a choice between sending the application from Boston, or driving to Montreal and sending it from there.
I have the feeling that it doesn't matter either way.