PR Renewal - Time Spent Outside when working for a canadian company

[dpenabill]

Into the Weeds Re Pre-assignment-abroad Circumstances in getting WA4CB Credit for RO:

If you were settled IN Canada before being assigned to work outside Canada, the odds would be good. And the longer and more well-established you were in Canada, the better the odds would be. Indeed, if you were well established in a residence in Canada before being assigned abroad, and there is no doubt the business qualifies as a Canadian business, and a company official confirms the nature of the employment meeting the temporary assignment criteria, that would meet or be close to what I have referenced as an easy to call case, a case in which we could say that being allowed the credit is very likely.

Otherwise it can be tricky.

It can be tricky because there are so many factors which can influence how it goes. Which brings this to a big factor that has nothing to do with whether this employment actually should qualify for the WA4CB credit, but which can have a huge impact on how it goes: the context for the Residency Determination. That is, whether your compliance with the PR RO is being calculated in the context of a Port-of-Entry (PoE) examination, a PR card application, or a PR Travel Document application.

Even though all the facts are precisely the same, the outcome, whether the respective official concludes you meet the RO based on allowing the WA4CB credit, can be different depending on the context in which the Residency Determination (the RO compliance calculation) is done. In particular, assuming precisely the same facts in all these scenarios, there is significant variability in the likely outcome depending on the context for the RO determination:

-- PoE: odds are considerably better the credit is allowed by CBSA officers during a PoE examination, at least to the extent there is no 44(1) Report prepared (or if there is a Report, the possibly that it is set aside, no Removal Order issued by the officer who reviews the Report)​

---- if you have returned to Canada since you passed the threshold for being outside Canada more than 1095 days, you have already experienced such leniency to some extent; obviously, when you next arrive here, there is some risk of being more closely scrutinized about your RO compliance and potentially needing to make the case that you meet the RO based on the WA4CB credit​

-- PR card application, situation 1: if at the time of the PR card application the PR is settled in Canada, and stays IN Canada after applying (except for quite short trips), odds are probably good the credit is allowed as long as a reasonably strong case for the credit is made​

-- PR card application, situation 2: if at the time of the PR card application the PR is only temporarily in Canada and returns to live outside Canada, there is a substantial risk of elevated scrutiny attendant a referral to the Domestic Network, in which case the details will be more closely examined with a higher risk of problems; as long as the supporting documentation reasonably makes a case for the WA4CB credit, the risk of a 44(1) Report at this stage is probably low, BUT there is a significant risk of a lengthy delay and then an in-person pick-up is required​

-- -- in this scenario in which an in-person pickup is required, if the PR is outside Canada and due to the delay in processing the PR card application their PR card has expired, the PR will need to apply for a PR Travel Document . . . in regards to which it warrants noting that even if a new PR card is issued, a PR abroad without a valid PR card will need a PR TD to fly to Canada, which leads to the other, not-so-good odds scenario . . .​

-- PR Travel Document application: A PR outside Canada without a valid PR card is PRESUMED to NOT have PR status; the nature and scope of scrutiny is significantly greater in this context, and a significantly more strict approach is typically applied; while the odds of being allowed the WA4CB credit will depend mostly on the extent to which the facts show the PR meets the criteria, the odds of getting the credit are significantly lower in this decision-making process . . . degree of establishment IN Canada before going abroad to work could be a very big factor​

-- -- as noted above, there is a significant risk that a PR card application decision is delayed such that the PR who continues to live outside Canada will need to apply for a PR TD in order to return to Canada, REGARDLESS of the decision made in regards to the PR card application (unless a new card is issued and mailed, and that is to an address where a trusted family, friend, or associate can collect the PR card and then courier it to the PR abroad)​

​

This is NOT to suggest there is a lot of risk for you that the WA4CB credit will not be allowed. I am NOT evaluating your risks in particular. I cannot forecast the outcome for you.

This is to note that if you were not settled in Canada before getting so "assigned" there is some risk and the extent of that risk is very difficult to predict because there are so many factors which can influence how it goes.

Noting one more example: the nature and scope of inquiry, and skepticism, can be very different if the total number of days actually IN Canada is in the hundreds versus, say, less than fifty, and yeah the latter is likely to make it more difficult.​

I have not come close to wrestling with a lot of details that can have influence. This is not a good venue for engaging in such an assessment of a particular individual's case. You need to rely on using your best personal judgment, and that includes deciding whether to obtain the assistance of a lawyer to help you determine the best way to proceed from here.

Note, too, that there is a significantly different risk for as long as you have a valid PR card, and can return to Canada to stay, compared to continuing to be outside Canada if your PR card expires before a new one is issued, and obviously the risk of a negative outcome is significantly greater in the latter scenario.

​

 

[deehat]

Note: the following observations are NOT intended to evaluate whether YOU will be allowed the working-abroad-for-Canadian-business credit (lets refer to this as the WA4CB credit). There are some situations in which it is more or less obvious that the odds are very good, or not at all good, and it is an easy call one way or the other.

Otherwise, and this is rather common, and appears to apply in your situation, I cannot opine what decision IRCC or CBSA will make. I can say and do say with emphasis that any opinions expressed in a forum like this, as to what IRCC or CBSA will decide, should NOT be relied on.

My observations are intended to illuminate what we know about relevant factors that can influence IRCC and CBSA decision-making. For someone in your situation this is to help YOU make decisions about how to best proceed based on YOUR own best judgment, including whether or not to obtain the assistance of a reputable, competent Canadian immigration lawyer to help you decide how to proceed, and in particular whether to rely on being allowed the WA4CB credit toward meeting the Residency Obligation.

@canuck78's question about how long you worked for the Canadian business IN Canada before being sent/transferred/assigned outside Canada is indeed one of the more pertinent questions referencing circumstances/factors that can indeed have a big influence in how it goes.

This is especially relevant in assessing whether the PR was in fact employed in a position in Canada and then temporarily assigned to work outside Canada or, for one example, was employed to work at a position outside Canada, that is, employment akin to a local hire (as in, were you hired by the business to do the work outside Canada, which would not qualify, or hired for a job in Canada but then assigned to work outside Canada).

How this factor influences the overall determination as to whether the PR gets the working-abroad-for-Canadian-business credit can be complicated and very difficult to forecast if there is any cause to question it. This is where a range of evidentiary factors have influence. Did I mention that qualifying for this credit can be quite tricky? (Yes, I did, with emphasis.)

Some (just some) relevant factors (assuming there is no reason to doubt the business itself meets all the criteria to qualify as a Canadian business for this specific purpose) include:

-- was the PR clearly settled IN Canada BEFORE being assigned to work outside Canada​

-- was the PR clearly established as an employee of the Canadian business BEFORE being assigned to work outside Canada​

-- was this employment arranged to support a claim for the WA4CB credit in order to allow the PR to meet the RO (note, if the business itself is determined to be for such a purpose that conclusively precludes credit; but even if that exception to what qualifies as a Canadian business does not apply, the more it appears this employment might be about allowing the PR to live outside Canada the more it can have a negative influence in the decision-making)​

-- a wide range of factors involving the nature of the employment itself, including but not limited to whether the employment relationship is such that the PR will continue in it upon the PR's return to Canada, among other factors such as those related to whether the PR is employed full time by the Canadian business​

As you note, in at least one case (and sure, perhaps in more) the fact the PR did not first work IN Canada did NOT definitively preclude getting the WA4CB credit. But BEWARE it is nonetheless still a factor and it can be a key factor (and in more than a few other cases has been) tending to push the needle in the direction of not allowing the WA4CB credit.

While again I cannot forecast how this will go for you, assuming there is no reason to at all doubt that the business itself qualifies, this may be the key factor for you in determining whether you are, in effect, a local hire (hired by the business for the position outside Canada) or hired to work for a position IN Canada but temporarily assigned to work in the position outside Canada. If the former, no WA4CB credit; if the latter, credit likely allowed.



This suggests you have a strong case documenting your work outside Canada is pursuant to a temporary ("temporary" is the more applicable term, not "temporal") assignment likely meeting the WA4CB criteria.

But that does NOT preclude IRCC or CBSA scrutiny of the underlying facts and circumstances. If you were well-settled IN Canada before being assigned to work outside Canada, what you describe would likely make this an easy to call case, one that those of us in the forum could credibly say is very likely to qualify for the WA4CB credit.

I cannot say, because I do not know, to what extent IRCC, or potentially CBSA in the Port-of-Entry (PoE) when you are arriving here, might approach your case more skeptically if in contrast you were not actually settled IN Canada before getting assigned to the position outside Canada. Note that there are what appear to be, what may be seen to be, some incongruities in the underlying details (this is not the place to get into those weeds and the facts are what they are: these are things that will not determine if you are allowed WA4CB credit, but they could trigger questions elevating how strict the scrutiny is).

I can say the odds are probably quite good there will not be a problem at the PoE, at least not a serious problem, when you next arrive here. But again there is some risk otherwise. It warrants noting that the risks involved can vary depending on many factors, including factors that do not directly involve WA4CB credit criteria. Can make a big difference, for example, in whether Residency Obligation credit is being assessed attendant a PoE examination, or a PR card application, or an application for a PR Travel Document.

I will address the latter in another post. To illustrate how even non-relevant factors can nonetheless influence how things go. Did I mention that getting this credit can be tricky. Yeah, I have, a lot, with emphasis.

Thank you @dpenabill for your comments. All your concerns are noted. As I previously mentioned, I am consulting with an immigration lawyer prior to submitting my PR renewal application. I will update as things progress. Thanks again.

 

[varma116]

@deehat, any updates on your pr renewal card?

 

[deehat]

@deehat, any updates on your pr renewal card?

Hi @varma116,

Yes I picked up my PR Card from a local office today.

In summary:

• I applied for my PR card in Sep. 2024. In addition to the standard docs (passport, checklist, photographs, payment receipt etc.), I also submitted a letter from my HR confirming that the time I spent outside Canada was because I was working for the company on a temporary assignment overseas for a specified time, after which I would return permanently to Canada. This letter also confirmed that my salary and all relating to my employment was domiciled in Canada and paid in CAD. This was supported with the company Aritcle of Inc., Business License, a document detailing my assignment outside Canada, and my emplyment contract. So essentially, the letter just followed the template provided here:
  https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/guide-5445-applying-permanent-resident-card-card-first-application-replacement-renewal-change-gender-identifier.html#appendixA
  Under the section, 'Time Spent Outside Canada', and subsection Situation A: Employment Outside Canada.
  Also, I included my payslips covering the period I've been with the company, my notice of assessments for all my tax filings since becoming PR, and my performance reviews from work to show that my role was managed from Canada although I was overseas. I also have a Canadian drivers license, so I uploaded this and my tenancy/lease agreement under the proof of residence section on the PR portal. I also provided a letter of explanation and docs to prove the reasons for all of my other absences from Canada because I had been absent for an extended period for other reasons for eg. pursuing education overseas.
• I had to leave Canada due to the same work overseas shortly after submitting my application. But I returned permanently in Nov. 2024.
• I was unable to get any updates about my application. I never received an acknowledgement email. I had to call IRCC to get my application number. I was also unable to link the application to my IRCC secure account. I called several times, reached out to Technical Support etc, still didn't help.
• In late Nov. 2024 I was informed during a call that my application was in its final stages. One month after in late Dec. 2024, I was told the application required additional verification. I was not sure if this was for security screening or about my presence in Canada or my eligibility as a whole.
• In Jan. 2025, my previous PR card expired.
• In mid Jan. 2025, I found out that the PR card processing times for renewals had dropped drastically (it is 17 days as I type this). So I decided to reach out to my MP to help me find out what the delay/verification was all about. The MP assistant asked that I fill out an enquiry form and said they had a weekly call with IRCC and that they would add my enquiry to the queue and it may not be till several weeks before I hear back. Surprisingly, about a week later, I got feedback from the MPs office. On the same day, I got an email from the officer reviewing my application asking me to confirm if I am in Canada, and requesting additional information. I was asked to provide evidence from the last 5 years up to the date of the request, showing that I meet the Residency Obligation including completion of a specific IRCC questionnaire, providing a list of my absences, etc. I was given the option to take the docs to a local office, submit via email, or via my IRCC account. I chose to submit via email. So I provided all the information including an updated letter from my HR.
• About one week later I got another email to appear at a local office to pickup my card. It was the boiler plate email asking me to bring all the docs I submitted as part of my application, and some more. I had printed all the docs, and had all the originals ready. But it was merely a counter interview, I was only asked to confirm my identity and provide my expired PR card. I showed my passport, and got my new card. I was in and out in about 15 minutes.

I drafted my letter of explanation, and listed out the docs I wanted to submit as part of the application and then spoke to a lawyer to review if there were any things I had missed. They advised me to include clearly in my LOE that I was in Canada at the time of the application given that I travel frequently and had an overseas assignment, so as to clear any doubts the visa officer might have. They also advised I submit additional photos as part of the 'Others' section in document uploads, so that if the uploaded PR card photo is rejected, a visa officer can manually crop/use those extra photos instead of rejecting the application as incomplete. I then completed the application on the portal and submitted it myself, I didn't use a representative.

Also, I didn't first work for the company in Canada before moving overseas. I was schooling overseas and was applying to roles in Canada towards the completion of my programme. My physical days in Canada at the time of application was just above 100 days. When I was made this offer, the company offered that I stay back overseas and support a key customer for a specific period of time before returning to Canada. So I resumed while still overseas even though I visited our Canadian office regularly.

I hope I've answered any potential questions and that my summary is enough to help someone else who might be in a similar situation.

Thank you @dpenabill (especially for the links and other posts you have made on this topic. I read through a lot of them and all the court cases you linked to helped me get an idea of what areas to cover, for any avoidance of doubt) and @canuck78 for your insights.

 

[dpenabill]

I picked up my PR Card from a local office today.

In summary: . . . .

The detailed description is appreciated. Worth bookmarking for reference for others inquiring about RO credit for days working outside Canada.

However, that would mostly be as an example of how tricky it can be, especially when relying on credit for employment that was not well established IN Canada before the temporary assignment outside Canada, particularly for a rather long temporary period.

It is worth taking note, in particular, of the extra scrutiny you encountered, the extent to which additional information and supporting documents were requested, the emphasis the lawyer gave to clearly documenting you were IN Canada at the time you made the PR card application, and the in-person PR card pick-up.

And looming large is the fact that before a positive decision was made you were settled here IN Canada.

Clearly this was no slam-dunk.

Perhaps this would have still gone OK if you were not here and settled in Canada now, before a determination was made, but absent your settling here at the very least the risk was quite high the application would have been bogged down significantly longer. And there was a real risk this could have gone the other way.

From how well and long established in Canada the employer's business was, to the employment not being in the country of your nationality, there were also a number of other factors which likely played a significant part in how this turned out.

Which is to say, for others making decisions related to employment outside Canada, the risks, and particularly the potential tripping points, should not be underestimated. In a sense you threaded a needle, and it worked.

I emphasize the risks for others, particularly as to taking employment outside Canada without first being settled in the job here in Canada, because of what is at stake: status to live and work in Canada (for some this may not have a high value, but for many it is among their most important priorities). There is no way to get upfront clearance. The PR who accepts employment taking them outside Canada for such a long period they cannot satisfy the RO based on days in Canada, without being first well established in Canada, is taking chances with keeping their PR status.

An aside: a thousand word "summary" eh. Working my alley a bit. But to be clear, the detail really is appreciated . . . way, way, way better than what we too often see: "Hey, I did that (such as got RO credit for a job working outside Canada that I was not established in before the assignment abroad), so it's OK." So, yeah, thank you for the detailed update.

A By-the-Way: The processing times change, a remarkably shorter processing time, is mostly about online applications meeting the criteria for automated processing. Any complexity in the application will preclude automated processing, which currently (it appears) means around two months for routine (but not automated) processing. Easy to conclude that applications relying on the working-abroad credit toward RO will not get automated processing, and in many such cases will probably involve significant non-routine processing. Here too my sense is your presence in Canada in the later stage of processing quite likely helped considerably.

 

[canuck78]

Hi @varma116,

Yes I picked up my PR Card from a local office today.

In summary:

• I applied for my PR card in Sep. 2024. In addition to the standard docs (passport, checklist, photographs, payment receipt etc.), I also submitted a letter from my HR confirming that the time I spent outside Canada was because I was working for the company on a temporary assignment overseas for a specified time, after which I would return permanently to Canada. This letter also confirmed that my salary and all relating to my employment was domiciled in Canada and paid in CAD. This was supported with the company Aritcle of Inc., Business License, a document detailing my assignment outside Canada, and my emplyment contract. So essentially, the letter just followed the template provided here:
  https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/guide-5445-applying-permanent-resident-card-card-first-application-replacement-renewal-change-gender-identifier.html#appendixA
  Under the section, 'Time Spent Outside Canada', and subsection Situation A: Employment Outside Canada.
  Also, I included my payslips covering the period I've been with the company, my notice of assessments for all my tax filings since becoming PR, and my performance reviews from work to show that my role was managed from Canada although I was overseas. I also have a Canadian drivers license, so I uploaded this and my tenancy/lease agreement under the proof of residence section on the PR portal. I also provided a letter of explanation and docs to prove the reasons for all of my other absences from Canada because I had been absent for an extended period for other reasons for eg. pursuing education overseas.
• I had to leave Canada due to the same work overseas shortly after submitting my application. But I returned permanently in Nov. 2024.
• I was unable to get any updates about my application. I never received an acknowledgement email. I had to call IRCC to get my application number. I was also unable to link the application to my IRCC secure account. I called several times, reached out to Technical Support etc, still didn't help.
• In late Nov. 2024 I was informed during a call that my application was in its final stages. One month after in late Dec. 2024, I was told the application required additional verification. I was not sure if this was for security screening or about my presence in Canada or my eligibility as a whole.
• In Jan. 2025, my previous PR card expired.
• In mid Jan. 2025, I found out that the PR card processing times for renewals had dropped drastically (it is 17 days as I type this). So I decided to reach out to my MP to help me find out what the delay/verification was all about. The MP assistant asked that I fill out an enquiry form and said they had a weekly call with IRCC and that they would add my enquiry to the queue and it may not be till several weeks before I hear back. Surprisingly, about a week later, I got feedback from the MPs office. On the same day, I got an email from the officer reviewing my application asking me to confirm if I am in Canada, and requesting additional information. I was asked to provide evidence from the last 5 years up to the date of the request, showing that I meet the Residency Obligation including completion of a specific IRCC questionnaire, providing a list of my absences, etc. I was given the option to take the docs to a local office, submit via email, or via my IRCC account. I chose to submit via email. So I provided all the information including an updated letter from my HR.
• About one week later I got another email to appear at a local office to pickup my card. It was the boiler plate email asking me to bring all the docs I submitted as part of my application, and some more. I had printed all the docs, and had all the originals ready. But it was merely a counter interview, I was only asked to confirm my identity and provide my expired PR card. I showed my passport, and got my new card. I was in and out in about 15 minutes.

I drafted my letter of explanation, and listed out the docs I wanted to submit as part of the application and then spoke to a lawyer to review if there were any things I had missed. They advised me to include clearly in my LOE that I was in Canada at the time of the application given that I travel frequently and had an overseas assignment, so as to clear any doubts the visa officer might have. They also advised I submit additional photos as part of the 'Others' section in document uploads, so that if the uploaded PR card photo is rejected, a visa officer can manually crop/use those extra photos instead of rejecting the application as incomplete. I then completed the application on the portal and submitted it myself, I didn't use a representative.

Also, I didn't first work for the company in Canada before moving overseas. I was schooling overseas and was applying to roles in Canada towards the completion of my programme. My physical days in Canada at the time of application was just above 100 days. When I was made this offer, the company offered that I stay back overseas and support a key customer for a specific period of time before returning to Canada. So I resumed while still overseas even though I visited our Canadian office regularly.

I hope I've answered any potential questions and that my summary is enough to help someone else who might be in a similar situation.

Thank you @dpenabill (especially for the links and other posts you have made on this topic. I read through a lot of them and all the court cases you linked to helped me get an idea of what areas to cover, for any avoidance of doubt) and @canuck78 for your insights.

I many ways you got quite lucky. This could have gone either way. I would strongly encourage you to have much more clear establishment in Canada for the next 5 years because a pattern of similar time spent mostly abroad may not be given the benefit of the doubt a 2nd time.