Entering canada with expired PR card via land border

[deadinside]

Hello,

I am an Indian citizen curently in the USA. I am working here on H1b, my h1b status is valid, however, my current visa stamp expired. I have got an appointment at US consulate in Toronto to get it stamped in December 2024. Now my Canada PR card expired in 2023 and I have been unable to maintain RO.

Some background about my situation -

• - Got Canada PR in 2018, did a soft landing in 2018.
• - Have travelled to Canada in 2018, 2021, 2022, 2023. Have stayed there for a total of about 3-4 months as a PR. (I had to undergo a dental surgery last year and couldn't move during covid, before which I had many financial liabilities I had to take care of and couldn't find a job so couldn't leave my current US job and move to Canada permanently. Although I know these are probably not enough HC reasons.)
• - PR card expired in mid 2023.
• - Planning to travel to Canada in Dec 2024 via land border. This will be my final attempt to move to Canada permanently and If I'm admitted without being reported, I will quit my US job once I'm in Canada. I am preparing myself financially to be able to sustain without having a job and also trying hard to secure a job in Canada by then.

Given my history, I have few questions -

1. Will I be allowed to enter Canada with an expired PR card via a US land border? (Please note that my H1b visa stamp has expired, will this matter if I'm already in the US?)
2. If yes,
   a. what documents do I need to carry? I currently only have an expired PR card, I don't have the original PRTD.
   b. can I enter using a rental car?
   c. can I enter by walking (at the NGF border for example)?
3. What are the chances of being reported for not meeting RO?
4. If I'm allowed to enter and not reported, my plan is to permanently stay in Canada for 3 years until I meet the RO. Will having a lease agreement in place help to show my intent of moving to canada permanently when I enter Canada?

Thank you for any help.


Edit: For some reason, my previous post is hidden and not being shown in the forum. So I've recreated the post in this new thread and posted comments from @Besram and myself from the hidden thread -

1) Yes

2a) Passport & expired PR card

2b) Yes

2c) Yes

3) High chance of being referred to secondary inspection. Rest will depend on your H&C reasons. Working in US is generally not an accepted reason, but individual circumstances can vary.

4) Yes, anything showing clear intent to permanently relocate to Canada would be beneficial. Note you only need to live in Canada for two years to meet RO, not three.

In general, it appears you have done very little research for your situation. This forum is packed with answers to similar questions, so recommend you do a search to find out more.

Thanks Besram, I was wondering if I should carry all my luggage with me when I enter via land border to show my intent of permanently moving to Canada OR if I should cross the border with just a backpack and have my luggage shipped via ac courier once I'm in Canada.. do you think it will make any difference in the secondary inspection as far as showing my intent to move permanently is concerned? I know this totally depends on the discretion of the officer but, do you think the chances of being sent to secondary is lower if i just cross the border with my backpack so as to not raise undue suspicion at the border? I am going to be upfront about any questions that will be asked by CBSA so I have nothing to hide. It's just that it would be better if I'm not sent to secondary or shown liniency if I am indeed sent to secondary.

 

[Besram]

Thanks Besram, I was wondering if I should carry all my luggage with me when I enter via land border to show my intent of permanently moving to Canada OR if I should cross the border with just a backpack and have my luggage shipped via ac courier once I'm in Canada.. do you think it will make any difference in the secondary inspection as far as showing my intent to move permanently is concerned? I know this totally depends on the discretion of the officer but, do you think the chances of being sent to secondary is lower if i just cross the border with my backpack so as to not raise undue suspicion at the border? I am going to be upfront about any questions that will be asked by CBSA so I have nothing to hide. It's just that it would be better if I'm not sent to secondary or shown liniency if I am indeed sent to secondary.

You have a high risk of being sent to secondary no matter what because you don't have a valid PR card anymore. Don't think the amount of luggage will make a a difference for this consideration.

Once in secondary, any evidence you can show that you are permanently moving to Canada should be a benefit. That said, I think there are better things to show than having all your belongings with you. Usually, for secondary you have to go into a separate building at the border and the officer you talk to wouldn't necessarily look at your car and the stuff in it.

Consider the following evidence:
- End of lease in the US, or selling your property
- Selling belongings in the US
- Terminating your job in the US
- Job in Canada
- Long-term rental agreement in Canada

 

[canuck78]

Hello,

I am an Indian citizen curently in the USA. I am working here on H1b, my h1b status is valid, however, my current visa stamp expired. I have got an appointment at US consulate in Toronto to get it stamped in December 2024. Now my Canada PR card expired in 2023 and I have been unable to maintain RO.

Some background about my situation -

• - Got Canada PR in 2018, did a soft landing in 2018.
• - Have travelled to Canada in 2018, 2021, 2022, 2023. Have stayed there for a total of about 3-4 months as a PR. (I had to undergo a dental surgery last year and couldn't move during covid, before which I had many financial liabilities I had to take care of and couldn't find a job so couldn't leave my current US job and move to Canada permanently. Although I know these are probably not enough HC reasons.)
• - PR card expired in mid 2023.
• - Planning to travel to Canada in Dec 2024 via land border. This will be my final attempt to move to Canada permanently and If I'm admitted without being reported, I will quit my US job once I'm in Canada. I am preparing myself financially to be able to sustain without having a job and also trying hard to secure a job in Canada by then.

Given my history, I have few questions -

1. Will I be allowed to enter Canada with an expired PR card via a US land border? (Please note that my H1b visa stamp has expired, will this matter if I'm already in the US?)
2. If yes,
   a. what documents do I need to carry? I currently only have an expired PR card, I don't have the original PRTD.
   b. can I enter using a rental car?
   c. can I enter by walking (at the NGF border for example)?
3. What are the chances of being reported for not meeting RO?
4. If I'm allowed to enter and not reported, my plan is to permanently stay in Canada for 3 years until I meet the RO. Will having a lease agreement in place help to show my intent of moving to canada permanently when I enter Canada?

Thank you for any help.


Edit: For some reason, my previous post is hidden and not being shown in the forum. So I've recreated the post in this new thread and posted comments from @Besram and myself from the hidden thread -

You should be aware that even if you are able to enter Canada without being reported you will have difficulty getting a health card because you don’t have a valid PR card. You have never met the residency requirements to qualify for healthcare in Canada and need to reapply for a health card. Would suggest purchasing an emergency travel medicine policy so you have coverage for more expensive medical issues until you get a valid health card. Sponsoring someone until you are compliant with your RO is also not recommended so depending on your relationship status that may impact your decision. 2 years of residency is required to become compliant not 3.

 

[deadinside]

You have a high risk of being sent to secondary no matter what because you don't have a valid PR card anymore. Don't think the amount of luggage will make a a difference for this consideration.

Once in secondary, any evidence you can show that you are permanently moving to Canada should be a benefit. That said, I think there are better things to show than having all your belongings with you. Usually, for secondary you have to go into a separate building at the border and the officer you talk to wouldn't necessarily look at your car and the stuff in it.

Consider the following evidence:
- End of lease in the US, or selling your property
- Selling belongings in the US
- Terminating your job in the US
- Job in Canada
- Long-term rental agreement in Canada

Thanks for the inputs. Should I present this evidence only if and when I'm asked to present it by the officer or should I just preemptively present it even if they don't ask me during secondary? What is the most common question(s) that I should expect before and during secondary given my history of travel to Canada? Do the CBSA officers have a standard list of questions that I should prepare answers for (just to that I don't fumble under stress)? Assuming I travel in Dec 2024, if they ask me "How long have you been outside of Canada?", should I just answer 16 months and leave it at that? (my last entry was in June 2023).

 

[deadinside]

You should be aware that even if you are able to enter Canada without being reported you will have difficulty getting a health card because you don’t have a valid PR card. You have never met the residency requirements to qualify for healthcare in Canada and need to reapply for a health card. Would suggest purchasing an emergency travel medicine policy so you have coverage for more expensive medical issues until you get a valid health card. Sponsoring someone until you are compliant with your RO is also not recommended so depending on your relationship status that may impact your decision. 2 years of residency is required to become compliant not 3.

Thanks @canuck78 . I'll make sure to get a medical insurance before I travel. Also, will I be able to work, given that I already have a SIN number that I got in 2018? I know I won't be able to get a DL but if I have US DL (valid till 2028), will that work in canada for identification, domestic air travel and driving purposes?

 

[canuck78]

Thanks @canuck78 . I'll make sure to get a medical insurance before I travel. Also, will I be able to work, given that I already have a SIN number that I got in 2018? I know I won't be able to get a DL but if I have US DL (valid till 2028), will that work in canada for identification, domestic air travel and driving purposes?

You should be able to get a DL and will likely need one if you want to drive. Getting a DL is relatively easy. SIN# may have been put on hold because of inactivity but if that is the case there should be a way to take off the hold. You should be able to start working even with the hold. You or your employer could be contacted after the fact to ensure that someone is not using your SIN# fraudulently.

 

[Besram]

Thanks for the inputs. Should I present this evidence only if and when I'm asked to present it by the officer or should I just preemptively present it even if they don't ask me during secondary? What is the most common question(s) that I should expect before and during secondary given my history of travel to Canada? Do the CBSA officers have a standard list of questions that I should prepare answers for (just to that I don't fumble under stress)? Assuming I travel in Dec 2024, if they ask me "How long have you been outside of Canada?", should I just answer 16 months and leave it at that? (my last entry was in June 2023).

General principle is to only reveal information if asked, and only to the extent necessary to answer any questions. Be truthful, but don't reveal anything extra.

Having said that, when you get to secondary it will most likely be because of a suspicion that you do not meet the RO. Once they have established that you you do not meet the RO and ask you questions like, "Why did you not meet your residency obligation?", this is when you want to bring forward everything and anything to your advantage, including your intention to move to Canada permanently.

I generally recommend preparing a written document for this and including documents as evidence. They are required to read it if they are considering reporting you for failing to meet RO, and it means you can tell your story completely and structure it in advance.

Again, please do some more research in this forum. There is already a lot of information on this. Will leave it at this for now.

 

[Besram]

You should be able to get a DL and will likely need one if you want to drive. Getting a DL is relatively easy. SIN# may have been put on hold because of inactivity but if that is the case there should be a way to take off the hold. You should be able to start working even with the hold. You or your employer could be contacted after the fact to ensure that someone is not using your SIN# fraudulently.

In regards to DL, it depends on the province. In BC, you need the following primary ID to get one:

Bring one of the following:

Valid permanent resident card (must not be expired)

or

Canadian Record of Landing/Canadian Immigration Identification Record (Confirmation of Permanent Resident not accepted)

You can see this for yourself by completing this wizard:
https://apps.icbc.com/licensing/id_wizard/page1.asp

So no dice without a PR card.

You are not allowed to drive with your US license for more than 90 days after moving here.

See here for BC example, but the other provinces I am aware of have similar rules. Indeed, most countries do.

 

[deadinside]

You should be able to get a DL and will likely need one if you want to drive. Getting a DL is relatively easy. SIN# may have been put on hold because of inactivity but if that is the case there should be a way to take off the hold. You should be able to start working even with the hold. You or your employer could be contacted after the fact to ensure that someone is not using your SIN# fraudulently.

General principle is to only reveal information if asked, and only to the extent necessary to answer any questions. Be truthful, but don't reveal anything extra.

Having said that, when you get to secondary it will most likely be because of a suspicion that you do not meet the RO. Once they have established that you you do not meet the RO and ask you questions like, "Why did you not meet your residency obligation?", this is when you want to bring forward everything and anything to your advantage, including your intention to move to Canada permanently.

I generally recommend preparing a written document for this and including documents as evidence. They are required to read it if they are considering reporting you for failing to meet RO, and it means you can tell your story completely and structure it in advance.

Again, please do some more research in this forum. There is already a lot of information on this. Will leave it at this for now.

Thank you for your inputs. I really appreciate it. I will prepare a draft of my situation to bring along when I cross the border. I have searched on this forum and find quit a lot of useful information. However, one thing I have not really been able to determine is how to quantify the odds of being reported and the factors on which it depends. Somewhere in this forum, I read that it depends on things like when was your last visit to Canada, how frequently were you travelling in and out of canada, how much time have you spent inside the country, and other ties. I have admiteddly none of those in my favor except for maybe my frequent travel to canada, every year from 2018-2023, except during covid years of 2019 and 2020. I don't know whether this will work against me or in my favor me. One of the main reasons I've been unable to move is simply due to possible economic hardship due to my inablity to find a canadian job before moving which made me hesistant to leave my current job in US (which is also difficult to get, as I'm on H1b). With Canadian economy also not doing great since covid, it's a huge gamble for me, given that my current job is in public sector. Not sure if this is worth mentioning in the draft that I will prepare. Being an immigrant is real tough. That's the price immigrants pay for being born in poor/developing country and cannot really go back due to host of issues back home.

 

[Ponga]

Thank you for your inputs. I really appreciate it. I will prepare a draft of my situation to bring along when I cross the border. I have searched on this forum and find quit a lot of useful information. However, one thing I have not really been able to determine is how to quantify the odds of being reported and the factors on which it depends. Somewhere in this forum, I read that it depends on things like when was your last visit to Canada, how frequently were you travelling in and out of canada, how much time have you spent inside the country, and other ties. I have admiteddly none of those in my favor except for maybe my frequent travel to canada, every year from 2018-2023, except during covid years of 2019 and 2020. I don't know whether this will work against me or in my favor me. One of the main reasons I've been unable to move is simply due to possible economic hardship due to my inablity to find a canadian job before moving which made me hesistant to leave my current job in US (which is also difficult to get, as I'm on H1b). With Canadian economy also not doing great since covid, it's a huge gamble for me, given that my current job is in public sector. Not sure if this is worth mentioning in the draft that I will prepare. Being an immigrant is real tough. That's the price immigrants pay for being born in poor/developing country and cannot really go back due to host of issues back home.

Bingo! Sometimes, perhaps even the majority of the time, it's simply the mood of the CBSA officer. Full stop.

Your reasons for not complying with the Residency Obligation, may not be very compelling, IMHO.

Good luck!

 

[canuck78]

Thank you for your inputs. I really appreciate it. I will prepare a draft of my situation to bring along when I cross the border. I have searched on this forum and find quit a lot of useful information. However, one thing I have not really been able to determine is how to quantify the odds of being reported and the factors on which it depends. Somewhere in this forum, I read that it depends on things like when was your last visit to Canada, how frequently were you travelling in and out of canada, how much time have you spent inside the country, and other ties. I have admiteddly none of those in my favor except for maybe my frequent travel to canada, every year from 2018-2023, except during covid years of 2019 and 2020. I don't know whether this will work against me or in my favor me. One of the main reasons I've been unable to move is simply due to possible economic hardship due to my inablity to find a canadian job before moving which made me hesistant to leave my current job in US (which is also difficult to get, as I'm on H1b). With Canadian economy also not doing great since covid, it's a huge gamble for me, given that my current job is in public sector. Not sure if this is worth mentioning in the draft that I will prepare. Being an immigrant is real tough. That's the price immigrants pay for being born in poor/developing country and cannot really go back due to host of issues back home.

Economic reasons are usually not accepted H&C. Nobody is denying that immigration comes with huge risks and is often difficult but that doesn’t mean that you will be allowed to return to Canada permanently since Canada’s RO are very lenient. Whether it makes sense for you to return to Canada and try to retain your PR status is a personal choice. Depends on your tolerance for risk, your other options, your health, your relationship status, etc. There is also an element of luck involved in whether you will get reported or not. It is you life so only you can determine what is right for you. As you have noted the Canadian economy is not very strong at the moment so it is a tough time to move to Canada and the Canadian government has flooded the market with newcomers who have the ability to work plus COL is a huge issue so you need evaluate your situation and figure out whether it makes sense to try and move to Canada.

 

[Besram]

However, one thing I have not really been able to determine is how to quantify the odds of being reported and the factors on which it depends.

Impossible to quantify your chances. There is no meaningful data on these situations, and anecdotal evidence isn't useful.

If you want to understand better the reasoning that is applied to these cases, you can check the appeal cases on CanLii. Start here and click on cases that have "Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness" in the title, and read through the ones that have "Removal Order" or similar due to residency obligation.
https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/irb/nav/date/2024/

 

[deadinside]

Impossible to quantify your chances. There is no meaningful data on these situations, and anecdotal evidence isn't useful.

If you want to understand better the reasoning that is applied to these cases, you can check the appeal cases on CanLii. Start here and click on cases that have "Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness" in the title, and read through the ones that have "Removal Order" or similar due to residency obligation.
https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/irb/nav/date/2024/

Thanks Besram, I had a few follow up questions -

1. In the event that I'm reported at the border, will the officer confiscate and/or destroy my expired PR card, or do I get to keep it as is?
2. Can I be reported ONLY IF referred to secondary? Meaning that, I cannot be reported WITHOUT going through secondary inspection first?
3. Is it MANDATORY for the officer to give me a written slip/receipt/notice of being reported? Is it called 441g? Or can the officer merely inform me verbally?
4. In the event of being reported, I will have 30 days to appeal the decision, right? Currently such cases are taking anywhere between 1-2 years to reach hearing, correct?
5. If I decide to appeal within the 30 days of being reported, can I legally work in Canada?
6. If I decide to appeal within the 30 days of being reported, can exit Canada and come back using the old expired PR card?

 

[Besram]

Thanks Besram, I had a few follow up questions -

1. In the event that I'm reported at the border, will the officer confiscate and/or destroy my expired PR card, or do I get to keep it as is?
2. Can I be reported ONLY IF referred to secondary? Meaning that, I cannot be reported WITHOUT going through secondary inspection first?
3. Is it MANDATORY for the officer to give me a written slip/receipt/notice of being reported? Is it called 441g? Or can the officer merely inform me verbally?
4. In the event of being reported, I will have 30 days to appeal the decision, right? Currently such cases are taking anywhere between 1-2 years to reach hearing, correct?
5. If I decide to appeal within the 30 days of being reported, can I legally work in Canada?
6. If I decide to appeal within the 30 days of being reported, can exit Canada and come back using the old expired PR card?

1. Unsure, but I have not heard of a case where it was taken so would suspect you can keep it
2. Well yeah, but you don't get to decide if you are referred to secondary. The officer at the car booth will do that, and they will do so in all likelihood because your PR card is expired.
3. Typically yes, but I will note there are a few edge cases in this forum where people claim they never received written notice. But hard to tell who messed up.
4. I believe so. Check the CanLii cases to see how long appeals take. Look at the latest decisions and when people were reported.
5. Yes, since you already have a SIN. But any time spent in Canada will not count against your RO until and unless your appeal is heard and decided positively. You will not be able to use this Canadian work experience for a fresh PR application (e.g. under CEC) in case your appeal is denied.
6. Not sure about this one, will let others comment. In general, it's not a good idea to leave Canada with an appeal pending, because you could be seen as undermining your commitment to stay in Canada, which could be detrimental to your appeal. But that doesn't mean it's not possible.

 

[Ponga]

Thanks Besram, I had a few follow up questions -

1. In the event that I'm reported at the border, will the officer confiscate and/or destroy my expired PR card, or do I get to keep it as is?
2. Can I be reported ONLY IF referred to secondary? Meaning that, I cannot be reported WITHOUT going through secondary inspection first?
3. Is it MANDATORY for the officer to give me a written slip/receipt/notice of being reported? Is it called 441g? Or can the officer merely inform me verbally?
4. In the event of being reported, I will have 30 days to appeal the decision, right? Currently such cases are taking anywhere between 1-2 years to reach hearing, correct?
5. If I decide to appeal within the 30 days of being reported, can I legally work in Canada?
6. If I decide to appeal within the 30 days of being reported, can exit Canada and come back using the old expired PR card?

Regarding question 1, I recall seeing something, in one of the CBSA manuals, that indicates that the officer should normally NOT retain the expired PR Card, but can't say with certainty that this included a PR that had been issued the 44(1).