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PRTD

bhargav51

Member
Apr 19, 2023
14
0
applied for renewal of my PR card on H&C ground in August 21.I had not met my Residency obligation in last 5 years preceding that due to manyreason. I gave a detailed explanation and proof for the reason I could not meet the RO.On March 23 i got an email from IRCC that my H&C application has been approved and that I should come to Ottawa office in six months to collect my card .I was asked to apply for PRTD as I was out of Canada.
I applied for PRTD in Embassy of Canada Abu Dhabi .However my PRTD application was rejected as I did not meet RO.I had submitted the letter I received from IRCC Ottawa.
The officer advised to apply for an appeal as my PRTD is rejected.
I do not understand if the officer in Abu Dhabi can cancel the approval given by IRCC Ottawa.
I cannot call the embassy or seek an appointment to discuss this issue.
Please advise what I should do.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,594
13,524
applied for renewal of my PR card on H&C ground in August 21.I had not met my Residency obligation in last 5 years preceding that due to manyreason. I gave a detailed explanation and proof for the reason I could not meet the RO.On March 23 i got an email from IRCC that my H&C application has been approved and that I should come to Ottawa office in six months to collect my card .I was asked to apply for PRTD as I was out of Canada.
I applied for PRTD in Embassy of Canada Abu Dhabi .However my PRTD application was rejected as I did not meet RO.I had submitted the letter I received from IRCC Ottawa.
The officer advised to apply for an appeal as my PRTD is rejected.
I do not understand if the officer in Abu Dhabi can cancel the approval given by IRCC Ottawa.
I cannot call the embassy or seek an appointment to discuss this issue.
Please advise what I should do.

Your PR card renewal based on H&C is not associated with PRTD. Being approved for PR card renewal doesn’t guarantee that you will be approved for PRTD. Had you applied for PRTD based on H&C and provided the same evidence?
 

bhargav51

Member
Apr 19, 2023
14
0
i had attached my approval letter from CIC ottawa and also written in brief about my PR card renewal details but I did not written in detail or attached all the papers I did with PR card renewal.
You mean to say the papers are again assessed for PR card at PRTD office.
Than what is point in applying an application for PR card renewal on H&C basis.I was advised by my attorney that if I get approval for PR Card renewal I will be issued PRTD.
Can I again apply with all the documents.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,594
13,524
i had attached my approval letter from CIC ottawa and also written in brief about my PR card renewal details but I did not written in detail or attached all the papers I did with PR card renewal.
You mean to say the papers are again assessed for PR card at PRTD office.
Than what is point in applying an application for PR card renewal on H&C basis.I was advised by my attorney that if I get approval for PR Card renewal I will be issued PRTD.
Can I again apply with all the documents.
You have to apply forPRTD based on H&C like it is a new application. You have to prove your H&C reasons. Receiving PR card approval doesn’t guarantee PRTD.
 

Ponga

VIP Member
Oct 22, 2013
10,416
1,468
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
applied for renewal of my PR card on H&C ground in August 21.I had not met my Residency obligation in last 5 years preceding that due to manyreason. I gave a detailed explanation and proof for the reason I could not meet the RO.On March 23 i got an email from IRCC that my H&C application has been approved and that I should come to Ottawa office in six months to collect my card .I was asked to apply for PRTD as I was out of Canada.
I applied for PRTD in Embassy of Canada Abu Dhabi .However my PRTD application was rejected as I did not meet RO.I had submitted the letter I received from IRCC Ottawa.
The officer advised to apply for an appeal as my PRTD is rejected.
I do not understand if the officer in Abu Dhabi can cancel the approval given by IRCC Ottawa.
I cannot call the embassy or seek an appointment to discuss this issue.
Please advise what I should do.
Are you able to fly to the U.S.? If so, you could then enter Canada via a land PoE either by car (but not a taxi or bus), or on foot. A valid PR Card or PRTD is required if you are traveling back to Canada on a commercial carrier. It's not requred if returning via a land PoE.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,183
I applied for PRTD in Embassy of Canada Abu Dhabi .However my PRTD application was rejected as I did not meet RO.
Can I apply again with all the documents
My best shot at a short response:

A denied application for a PR Travel Document is a decision, by the visa office, TERMINATING your PR status. It will take effect in 60 days UNLESS you file an appeal.

Since it has now been determined you are INADMISSIBLE, for a failure to comply with the PR Residency Obligation, to save PR status your only option is to appeal.

So, no, you cannot successfully apply again. You can apply but it will be denied because there is already a decision terminating your PR status.

So, again, your only option to save your PR status now is to appeal the visa office decision denying the PR TD application.

It is correct that you would be able to still enter Canada as a PR if you were able to travel via the U.S. within sixty days of the visa office decision, as noted by @Ponga. Nonetheless, to try to save your PR status it is important to make the appeal within sixty days. But no, if you are able to come to Canada and go to the local office to try picking up a new PR card that is not going to work; at best, if you file an appeal, you might be issued a one-year PR card pending the appeal.

The Long Read, Longer Explanation:

You might ask: If the decision denying the PR TD application has such conclusive effect, why didn't the decision to approve your application for a PR card have a conclusive effect? And you do sort of ask this:
I do not understand if the officer in Abu Dhabi can cancel the approval given by IRCC Ottawa.
. . . Please advise what I should do.
. . . what is point in applying an application for PR card renewal on H&C basis. I was advised by my attorney that if I get approval for PR Card renewal I will be issued PRTD.
I am NOT qualified to advise what you should do. Ordinarily I would defer to a lawyer for advice. However, not all lawyers are created equal.

Regarding this "I was advised by my attorney that if I get approval for PR Card renewal I will be issued PRTD." That is NOT how it necessarily works. Might. Sometimes. Might not. A lot of times.

I disagree with @canuck78 regarding this:
Your PR card renewal based on H&C is not associated with PRTD.

But I agree with the more important part of what @canuck78 stated:
Being approved for PR card renewal doesn’t guarantee that you will be approved for PRTD.

I rarely disagree with lawyers. But if your lawyer said, in effect, that the decision to approve your PR card application more or less guaranteed a PR TD application would be granted, it is past time to get a different lawyer. At the very least the lawyer should have known and advised you that a PR outside Canada who does not possess a valid PR card is PRESUMED to NOT have valid PR status (see Section 31(2)(b) IRPA here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/page-5.html#h-274660 ), and been aware that a decision to approve and issue a PR card can be tentative subject to actual delivery of the card, and aware in particular that when IRCC approves a PR card application but requires an in-person pick-up, that is often (if not usually) intended to trigger a strict residency determination either in processing an application for a PR TD (which in your case appears to be what happened) or attendant screening at a Port-of-Entry (if the PR is able to travel to Canada without obtaining a PR TD, such as through the U.S.), more or less anticipating in some (or even many) cases the application for a PR TD will be denied or a 44(1) Report and Removal Order issued by border officials when the PR arrives at the PoE.

Moreover, not all pick-up card in-person notices are the same. At the least, the in-person pick-up will require a counter-interview; while this is largely perfunctory, it does involve verification of certain information about the PR, not the least of course is that the PR is physically present in Canada, but it can also include questioning to verify the PR is admissible before delivering the new PR card. Other in-person pick-up notices can involve a more extensive interview and specifically include a Residency Determination examination. The latter often indicate that either a five year or one year PR card might be delivered.

This is basic stuff. This is stuff any experienced immigration lawyer should be fairly well familiar with, and understand that when an in-person pick-up is required, many times there is NOT yet a final decision to actually deliver a new PR card.

So, you asked: "I do not understand if the officer in Abu Dhabi can cancel the approval given by IRCC Ottawa." The visa office decision denying a PR TD does not necessarily "cancel" the Ottawa decision, as it is more likely that the Ottawa office decision was tentative, contingent on your personal presence and further verification of your PR status.

But, Maybe, Ottawa Office Did Make A Definitive H&C Decision:

It is possible that the Ottawa office did in fact make an affirmative decision in regards to allowing you to retain PR status. Your account suggests the possibility it did. You say you "got an email from IRCC that my H&C application has been approved."

I suspect your notice said that your application for a PR card has been approved and did not specifically state it was approved for H&C reasons. That is (and yeah I am speculating a bit here), my guess is that you inferred the application was approved for H&C reasons because otherwise you did not meet the RO and you applied relying on H&C relief.

Which one it is makes a difference. An important difference. This is part of why I disagree with @canuck78's comment that the "PR card renewal based on H&C is not associated with PRTD" (apart from the fact that processing the PR TD application would obviously and necessarily include review and consideration of the PR's GCMS records including processing of the PR card application). If in fact the Ottawa office made a formal Residency Determination that specifically granted H&C relief, the visa office would be required to give that decision a lot of weight in deciding whether to grant the application for a PR TD.
Note: the credit due a Residency Determination allowing H&C relief is itself a complex subject. This is a tangent that would be too much a distraction here, for now. Short version: such a decision cannot be "cancelled" and carries a lot of weight, but it is not absolutely binding in a subsequent Residency Determination.

My wording can be clumsy, so I will try to make this clear. There are two distinct possibilities in regards to the decision made in processing your PR card application:
(1) The IRCC office in Ottawa made a Residency Determination concluding that you would be allowed to retain PR status, despite the RO breach, based on H&C reasons, or​
(2) The IRCC office in Ottawa made a tentative decision to issue a PR card contingent on your presence in Canada and appearance in-person to pick up a new PR card​

The latter, number (2), is by far the more likely case. That is, indeed, a very common scenario.

But the first is a possibility. Caution: this is not at all a likely possibility, especially if part of the notice to you instructed you to obtain a PR TD.

If the Ottawa decision did affirmatively make a Residency Determination allowing H&C relief, the good news is this indicates the odds of successfully appealing the decision to deny the PR TD are probably good, perhaps very good.

Side note: It appears you made the PR card application while abroad. This raises other issues. And if so, that makes it all the more likely the Ottawa office did NOT make an affirmative Residency Determination allowing H&C relief.

applied for renewal of my PR card on H&C ground in August 21.I had not met my Residency obligation in last 5 years preceding that due to manyreason. I gave a detailed explanation and proof for the reason I could not meet the RO.On March 23 i got an email from IRCC that my H&C application has been approved and that I should come to Ottawa office in six months to collect my card .I was asked to apply for PRTD as I was out of Canada.
I applied for PRTD in Embassy of Canada Abu Dhabi .However my PRTD application was rejected as I did not meet RO.I had submitted the letter I received from IRCC Ottawa.
The officer advised to apply for an appeal as my PRTD is rejected.
I do not understand if the officer in Abu Dhabi can cancel the approval given by IRCC Ottawa.
I cannot call the embassy or seek an appointment to discuss this issue.
Please advise what I should do.
 

bhargav51

Member
Apr 19, 2023
14
0
I made the application when I was in Ottawa Canada in August 2021.
So if I make an appeal will all the approval i got from IRCC and CIC stands cancelled and the decision of the IAD will be final.
Since I did not have a valid PR card after February 2022 I did not travel to Canada.
Will I get a PRTD from IAD or not.
In case I have to do an online appeal is it advisable to hire an lawyer.
Is IAD appeal only an interview or we have to submit documents also.
 

bricksonly

Hero Member
Mar 18, 2018
434
54
I made the application when I was in Ottawa Canada in August 2021.
So if I make an appeal will all the approval i got from IRCC and CIC stands cancelled and the decision of the IAD will be final.
Since I did not have a valid PR card after February 2022 I did not travel to Canada.
Will I get a PRTD from IAD or not.
In case I have to do an online appeal is it advisable to hire an lawyer.
Is IAD appeal only an interview or we have to submit documents also.
After you applied for PR card renewal, you left Canada AGAIN. This make the PRTD review very bad. So a decision made based on your PR card renewal, doesn't help your PRTD application. Your lawyer is not professional. Your current status shows you are not really want to comply with RO. Appeal is the only way if you want to keep your PR status.
A US visa is very important for Canadian PR. At anytime, if PR card is expired or lost, enter Canada by land entry. Never touch PRTD. My two cents.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,183
I have a USA visa should I give it a try or of no use now
If you intend to appeal, traveling via the U.S. to Canada TO STAY (as long as you can, depending on whether the appeal is successful or not) could have a significant positive influence in how things go.

Frankly, however, if you are not prepared to come to Canada TO STAY, there may not be much point pursuing an appeal.

After all, even if you were granted the PR TD, made the trip to Canada, and got a new five year PR card, but then left Canada for an extended period of time, you would be in continuing breach of the RO with a significant risk that the next time you tried to come to Canada would result in a Removal Order anyway (even if you have a valid PR card). There is not much point to pursuing H&C relief unless and not until the PR is prepared to come to Canada TO STAY.


I made the application when I was in Ottawa Canada in August 2021.
So if I make an appeal will all the approval i got from IRCC and CIC stands cancelled and the decision of the IAD will be final.
Since I did not have a valid PR card after February 2022 I did not travel to Canada.
Will I get a PRTD from IAD or not.
In case I have to do an online appeal is it advisable to hire an lawyer.
Is IAD appeal only an interview or we have to submit documents also.
Clarification that the application was made when you were in Canada helps eliminate some of the contingencies. But the extent of your absence after making the PR card application, as @bricksonly observed, makes your case much harder . . . much, much harder. This warrants further comments below.

From your other posts I understood you already had a lawyer assisting you. If what you reported about a lawyer's advice was attendant a consultation, remember that in a free consultation you rarely get any more than what you pay for. Yeah, basically nothing.

You can, and if you intend to appeal you should obtain the help of a lawyer. You can, and if you intend to appeal you should start the appeal process yourself, wasting no time to make the appeal. But then, in going forward with the appeal, the burden is on you to make the case (so yes, there is more to it than merely participating in an interview), and for that a lawyer's help can make a big difference (especially if there are any technical issues, which would include making the case that approval of the PR card application should have led to a different result for the PR TD application).

As noted above, if you can come to Canada pending the appeal, that could help. Might not be enough, probably will not make a big difference, but it could help. Actually, it is not so much that being here would help, it is that NOT being here will almost certainly hurt.

The appeal is de novo. It is like a new trial. It is up to you to make the case that your H&C reasons are sufficient to warrant keeping PR status despite the breach of the RO. Moreover, since there is no question you were in breach of the RO at the time of the PR TD application, not only will the extent of your absence up to the date you made the PR TD application be a further negative factor, but unless you can return to Canada pending the appeal, as already noted your continued absence will also be a negative factor.

As I previously described, it makes a big difference if the Ottawa office made an affirmative Residency Determination to allow you to retain PR status based on H&C reasons. If so, this could be crucial in making a successful appeal. But it might not be at all easy to navigate documenting the Ottawa office did make such a decision. (Note: I doubt they did. If you know or believe otherwise, and you have further questions, it would be helpful to explain why you believe there was a definitive Residency Determination based on H&C reasons.)

But knowing this could also be important in deciding whether or not to pursue an appeal, or at least whether or not to incur the expense of a lawyer in pursuing an appeal. Unless there was an affirmative decision by the Ottawa office to allow H&C relief, the odds are probably against a successful appeal. Again, as @bricksonly observed, leaving Canada after making the PR card application makes your case much harder . . . much, much harder.

Generally a PR relying on H&C relief should pursue that ONLY when the PR is prepared to actually settle and STAY in Canada long-term. So leaving for an extended period of time after making an application based on H&C almost always has a big NEGATIVE impact.

And, likewise, leaving for an extended period of time can make the difference when a visa office abroad is processing a PR TD application. After all, a big part of the H&C case in the PR card application is whether the reasons for not returning to Canada sooner justify keeping PR status, based on when the PR actually returns or is seeking to return to Canada. So for the PR card application, that would have been based on the extent of your absence, and the reasons for it, as of August 2021. It appears, for purposes of your PR TD application, you added more than an additional year of absence (your absence after applying for the PR card). Remember that the extent of the breach (the number of days outside Canada) is generally the BIGGEST H&C factor. The bigger the breach, the more compelling the reasons for being outside Canada need to be in order to get H&C relief.


"So if I make an appeal will all the approval i got from IRCC and CIC stands cancelled and the decision of the IAD will be final."​

A decision by IAD will be final unless there is an application for leave to obtain further review by the Federal Court and that is granted (which is not at all common in such cases as this).

The IAD decision will either:
-- dismiss the appeal, which would mean the visa office decision denying the PR TD takes effect and you would then be a Foreign National, no longer a PR, OR​
-- allow the appeal and rule that you are still a Permanent Resident​

If the IAD allows the appeal, and rules that you are still a PR, it is still up to the visa office to issue a PR TD (after all, most PRs that win appeal in these cases are IN Canada pending the outcome of the appeal). That does not immediately happen. I am not certain, but if you are outside Canada I believe you will need to make a new application for a PR TD, but that should be readily granted and the PR TD issued based on the IAD's decision.

Thus . . .
Will I get a PRTD from IAD or not?

No. Only a visa office can issue a PR TD. But if you win the appeal, you will be entitled to a PR TD from the visa office. I think you need to apply for this, but it should be simple.
 
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canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,594
13,524
Can I apply again with all the documents
When you file your appeal you should include the H&C information that you had included in your PR card renewal application in addition to the other suggestions made. Entering Canada via the US land border doesn’t eliminate the need to appeal so it is important to appeal the PRTD no matter what
 

bricksonly

Hero Member
Mar 18, 2018
434
54
When you file your appeal you should include the H&C information that you had included in your PR card renewal application in addition to the other suggestions made. Entering Canada via the US land border doesn’t eliminate the need to appeal so it is important to appeal the PRTD no matter what
As OP applied PRTD and got rejected, appeal is the only option for him to save PR status.
And as the applicant is NOT IN Canada, the appeal can be easily rejected again, even with all the H/C reasons. That's why I prefer all PRs with RO compliance problem NOT to apply PRTD if they have access to US but entering Canada first. The worst thing is CBSA will fill a report, but you can fight it INSIDE Canada with many resource to help.
The time spending in Canada to appeal itself adds your weight on your intension to LIVE IN Canada, thus make a great difference.
I totally agree with @dpenabill on this.
 

bhargav51

Member
Apr 19, 2023
14
0
How long does it take IAD to give a date for appeal and how long do they take to give their decision.
How much lawyers charge per person to appeal on your behalf.
If I want to appeal without a lawyer will IAD give me PRTD to come to Canada.
Wil I be able to apply for a Visitor visa till my appeal is pending.
 

Ponga

VIP Member
Oct 22, 2013
10,416
1,468
Job Offer........
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How long does it take IAD to give a date for appeal and how long do they take to give their decision.
How much lawyers charge per person to appeal on your behalf.
If I want to appeal without a lawyer will IAD give me PRTD to come to Canada.
Wil I be able to apply for a Visitor visa till my appeal is pending.
I would tend to agree with @bricksonly that returning via the U.S. across a land PoE is probably the best option. The question from @dpenabill regarding whether or not you plan to actually STAY in Canada for [much] more than a minute...is priceless. Don't even bother with this if you have no plans to stay for long enough to get back into compliance.