FSW WORLDWIDE

[GandiBaat]

Yes, IT or not, I want to study. I have a shitty Bachelor's with not that decent grades so I really want to study further and improve myself.

If you are from the IT field, do you have suggestions from me? I have devoured hours of youtube videos but they all of them seem click baity.

What was your bachelor field?

I will say, "IT" is not what it was. It is less and less of operations thing these days. And it will be even lesser as time will go by. It is being abstracted away. Lemme give you an example. Some times back build engineering used to be a thing. So was deployment engineering. How you convert your source code into usable binary, resolve their dependencies and validate the generated binaries. There used to be build experts for this. And there was deployment experts who knew every nook and crany of likes of "WebShpere" ie the software that "ran" those binaries and "made" websites out of it.

What changed? Well it all mostly got automated. Those positions are gone. Some of it merged into what is called as "DevOps" now. Automation of "development operations". Even that has its limit once all the tasks will be automated and standard tools will be there.

Does it mean "IT" is a shrinking field removing jobs left right and centre? Not till now atleast. It is more top heavy these days. It demands you to be more comfortable with fundamentals so you can break down a seemingly magically complex system to its fundamental blocks. Those blocks are not going to change easily. For that you need to take up a course that teaches you those. Then only things will fit in. Here is an example :

Are you seeing the latest chatGPT-3 craze? People are going NUTS about it! Everyone wants a piece of it! Give it some days and investors will be putting money in really STUPID products just because it uses "chatGPT technology". Without even knowing what the hell it is. As an engineer you will be expected to find out if a problem can be solved by this model or not? Or how much will it cost?

If I were to approach this (I am not a NLP person), I will go back to RNNs that I learnt back in 2003-04 for processing (ie doing things like translation, prediction, query answering) sequential data like natural language, time series etc, upgrade to more specialized RNNs like LSTMs then to Transformer models which process entire input at once and finally GPT-2/3 which is a massive transformer. You need to have this base otherwise everytime a new "tech" comes you will feel obsolete.

So, take the longish path, build the base of knowledge. It is not going to be easy. But it will last. Find a course that build up you from basics of CS: Programming, algo, DB, Theory of computation, Networks and communication, OS, Computer Arch/Organization, Software engineering, compiler design. Find a condensed one to save time. Go for well known universities.

That being said, if your current situation does not allow it, there is no harm or shame in delaying this "pivot" or even not doing it at all. "CS" and "IT" are means to an end and not ends in itself.

 

[Deleted member 1083629]

You are right, and most of us are expecting this fate to befall us, but I don't know how else he can break into IT without having to go back to undergrad. Perhaps taking a course in Data Analysis or modelling? I dunno...

Start building side projects. Start going to hackathons. Start networking. Start being more active on LinkedIn (no, not dumb posts like I helped a homeless and he ended up being CEO but more of technical posts). Start grinding leetcode and system design.

Undegrad in CS is nothing more than bunch of theoretical classes that is taught by out-of-touch professors. Nothing a good book cannot teach. It's harder and takes more self discipline but possible.

 

[GandiBaat]

The only flame war left on this thread was "which programming language is the worst?"

No need for any flame war. Everyone knows its perl A language so bad that not even the original author of program can read it once he/she/they/it/ze/hir are done writing code.

 

[televisionenthusiast289]

No draw today

 

[Deleted member 1083629]

So Canadian bank increased interest rate again, huh? Damn, things are getting tough AF up in here.

 

[wonderbly]

So Canadian bank increased interest rate again, huh? Damn, things are getting tough AF up in here.

Yep, my mortgage repayment have gone up by about $1,500 in the last few months...

 

[Deleted member 1083629]

Yep, my mortgage repayment have gone up by about $1,500 in the last few months...

Damn… I feel bad for you and I feel super bad for those who just moving to Canada. Rent in ON will increase again. I am sure we will see 1 bdr for 2700 in Toronto by the end of the first quarter. Doubt anywhere else in ON would be much better.

 

[imransyed]

Yes. Quant traders, consultants, anything with investments. Get ready to live at work (my friend makes 300K+ and constantly takes Aderall to cope with work) and have no life. To get in, you need to get masters in financial engineering, know your math very well and be able to pass several tough exams. Starting salary is in 100Ks. Oh yes, one mistake will ruin your career (jk, not that bad but it's very high stress job).

Quant traders, consultants, anything with investments- require a brilliant AF student with straight As i think. I don't have these but I think I know how to get there. Thank you, I will be looking at these seriously. Doing some basic research after reading this, I also discovered that Management Consultancies also have a Sourcing & Procurement Division.

Its a good choice that you want to study. Go for MS instead of PGDM if you want to get real exposure. As a PR, its fairly easy to get admit and fees are super low. If you want to get into IT, definetly get skilled in few tools. You don’t necessarily need to everything. Focus on one area. Research a lot before pursuing the study route.

So these PGDMs have not a value in terms of exposure or adding value to my resume? I know some colleges are degree mills but now it sounds like in the real world, ALL colleges are degree mills. Will be focusing on MS from a university now, I was focusing on PGDM from a "reputed" college till now.

Assuming you don't have any experience in tech and if you really want to switch, then complete some fulltime course and try to get a job through placements and get some experience, after that you can switch jobs frequently for better pay. If you don't have much interest in programming, then try to get into stuff like cloud, devops etc., but developers are more in demand in general.

This is what I have heard everywhere. Its not that I dont have an interest in programming. I just dont know anything about it right now! Gandibaat has touched on this in a later post also.

You need to pat yourself on the back and take this win. A lot of people end up doing survival jobs and you have managed to find a job in your field.


Yep it is and how much ever one may read about it outside Canada the true extent doesn't hit you unless you move. So, it is natural to feel this way.


You just started in Canada so it is understandable you are feeling overwhelmed. But you are quite young and will be better off in few years. Although IT may feel very lucrative (and it is) but unless you have some sort of background breaking in to Canadian market without experience will be mighty tough. And this will be further exacerbated by the flood of more experienced people vying for jobs after the massive layoffs that have happened just now.
If you are good with physical sort of work and have decent handyman skills; I would say do explore trades. Canada has massive shortage of trades people and long wait times for contractors. If you are good, you will be able to establish a business down the line and you can write off a lot of expenses as a business. I know contractors who have luxury cars on business names and writing off the cost to the business.

Thank you Cansha. I was very happy that I managed to get a job till the reality of rents hit me. Then it all fizzled out but I am still optimistic as I know I am willing to put in the hours and the hard work, mental or physical, to improve my life forever.

This is also why I am researching Trades very seriously, but here is the thing and i don't want to sound pompous or pretentious, I have no plans to live in Canada after the passport. I will likely move back to GCC countries, where I was born and have lived my whole life. The reason for coming here is because my native country's prime minister Mr Modi and his intentions of persecuting people of my faith are very clear. Sorry, I digress. So this is why trades is not very appealing to me right now, because GCC countries, Trades people are plentiful. and earn really low wages and there is no scope of becoming a Small trades contractor and making the big bucks like in Canada.
Hope this was not TMI. I will stay longer to complete an education though.

What was your bachelor field?

I will say, "IT" is not what it was. It is less and less of operations thing these days. And it will be even lesser as time will go by. It is being abstracted away. Lemme give you an example. Some times back build engineering used to be a thing. So was deployment engineering. How you convert your source code into usable binary, resolve their dependencies and validate the generated binaries. There used to be build experts for this. And there was deployment experts who knew every nook and crany of likes of "WebShpere" ie the software that "ran" those binaries and "made" websites out of it.

What changed? Well it all mostly got automated. Those positions are gone. Some of it merged into what is called as "DevOps" now. Automation of "development operations". Even that has its limit once all the tasks will be automated and standard tools will be there.

Does it mean "IT" is a shrinking field removing jobs left right and centre? Not till now atleast. It is more top heavy these days. It demands you to be more comfortable with fundamentals so you can break down a seemingly magically complex system to its fundamental blocks. Those blocks are not going to change easily. For that you need to take up a course that teaches you those. Then only things will fit in. Here is an example :

Are you seeing the latest chatGPT-3 craze? People are going NUTS about it! Everyone wants a piece of it! Give it some days and investors will be putting money in really STUPID products just because it uses "chatGPT technology". Without even knowing what the hell it is. As an engineer you will be expected to find out if a problem can be solved by this model or not? Or how much will it cost?

If I were to approach this (I am not a NLP person), I will go back to RNNs that I learnt back in 2003-04 for processing (ie doing things like translation, prediction, query answering) sequential data like natural language, time series etc, upgrade to more specialized RNNs like LSTMs then to Transformer models which process entire input at once and finally GPT-2/3 which is a massive transformer. You need to have this base otherwise everytime a new "tech" comes you will feel obsolete.

So, take the longish path, build the base of knowledge. It is not going to be easy. But it will last. Find a course that build up you from basics of CS: Programming, algo, DB, Theory of computation, Networks and communication, OS, Computer Arch/Organization, Software engineering, compiler design. Find a condensed one to save time. Go for well known universities.

That being said, if your current situation does not allow it, there is no harm or shame in delaying this "pivot" or even not doing it at all. "CS" and "IT" are means to an end and not ends in itself.

I have a BBA from India, and Phy,Chem,Bio in HSC. I still kick myself for running away from Maths growing up. I loved Organic Chem because of a great teacher I had in HSC, otherwise I have been a pretty low scorer due to laziness, really bad teachers. The only meaningful way my degree has helped me is by getting me in the door for the first job and this PR
I was looking at Post Baccs to get into chemistry or chemical engineering but I know less about that field than even IT.

I have read your post thrice so far and I will be doing a lot of IT related research using pointers from it. Thank you.

 

[Deleted member 1083629]

Quant traders, consultants, anything with investments- require a brilliant AF student with straight As i think. I don't have these but I think I know how to get there

Well, kind of. Your best bet is to get into a good Masters in Canada, get good grades, etc. If you cannot get into a good school because of grades, take some classes at postbac level and As them.

Other than that, you don't need education to get into coding. Start building side projects, start attending hackathons, networking.

 

[seadrag0n]

Yep, my mortgage repayment have gone up by about $1,500 in the last few months...

That's insane. Looks like the situation will remain this way for a long time, good luck to you.

 

[Deleted member 1083629]

That's insane. Looks like the situation will remain this way for a long time, good luck to you.

US increased their rates last month, I think. Canada always follows what the US is doing.

Yeah, we are in for tough times. That's why I am suggesting everyone not to come to Canada right now. Wait it out for as long as possible. Do soft landing but don't move permanently until you get a job.

 

[seadrag0n]

US increased their rates last month, I think. Canada always follows what the US is doing.

Yeah, we are in for tough times. That's why I am suggesting everyone not to come to Canada right now. Wait it out for as long as possible. Do soft landing but don't move permanently until you get a job.

That sucks but you are correct, right now seems to be the worst time to move to Canada. This year is supposed to give a good picture of what the next few years will be like, lets see what happens.

 

[GandiBaat]

I have a BBA from India, and Phy,Chem,Bio in HSC. I still kick myself for running away from Maths growing up. I loved Organic Chem because of a great teacher I had in HSC, otherwise I have been a pretty low scorer due to laziness, really bad teachers. The only meaningful way my degree has helped me is by getting me in the door for the first job and this PR

May I suggest, sit and think about it. Think if this is something you will want to do, not just something you will need to do. If you are sure that either you want to do or need is so dire that there is no other way then take the difficult path. You will be starting from fairly low, a masters is not really going to fix your missing exposure or bachelor level training in basic CS. You will be committing to this career fully.

Now if you want to do it half and half kind of way, the issue I see is that you may be back to this question in few years again either with a stagnant career or you will be in the situation where your job is being eliminated due to automation and you will be again doing some other qualification to move in another role in the industry.

If you want to do it fully, you will need to build your base knowledge like any undergrad does. It can be through a full time qualification or through a bunch of projects. Issue with projects is that it does not cover the breadth of knowledge you need because you will learn what you need for project. I would have never done functional programming in 2004 if my language/computation course work did not make do it. A lot of progress in modern and industry useful languages that has happened in last 10-15 years find base in that concept and knowledge. Think modern Javascript (the so called "good parts"), functional extensions to Java and C# are all rooted in basics of functional programming that I learnt in 2004.

If you find committing to CS fully hard, it will only lead to frustration later. This industry is getting better at removing routine work faster than anything I have seen.

 

[Deleted member 1006777]

Quant traders, consultants, anything with investments- require a brilliant AF student with straight As i think. I don't have these but I think I know how to get there. Thank you, I will be looking at these seriously. Doing some basic research after reading this, I also discovered that Management Consultancies also have a Sourcing & Procurement Division.


So these PGDMs have not a value in terms of exposure or adding value to my resume? I know some colleges are degree mills but now it sounds like in the real world, ALL colleges are degree mills. Will be focusing on MS from a university now, I was focusing on PGDM from a "reputed" college till now.


This is what I have heard everywhere. Its not that I dont have an interest in programming. I just dont know anything about it right now! Gandibaat has touched on this in a later post also.



Thank you Cansha. I was very happy that I managed to get a job till the reality of rents hit me. Then it all fizzled out but I am still optimistic as I know I am willing to put in the hours and the hard work, mental or physical, to improve my life forever.

This is also why I am researching Trades very seriously, but here is the thing and i don't want to sound pompous or pretentious, I have no plans to live in Canada after the passport. I will likely move back to GCC countries, where I was born and have lived my whole life. The reason for coming here is because my native country's prime minister Mr Modi and his intentions of persecuting people of my faith are very clear. Sorry, I digress. So this is why trades is not very appealing to me right now, because GCC countries, Trades people are plentiful. and earn really low wages and there is no scope of becoming a Small trades contractor and making the big bucks like in Canada.
Hope this was not TMI. I will stay longer to complete an education though.



I have a BBA from India, and Phy,Chem,Bio in HSC. I still kick myself for running away from Maths growing up. I loved Organic Chem because of a great teacher I had in HSC, otherwise I have been a pretty low scorer due to laziness, really bad teachers. The only meaningful way my degree has helped me is by getting me in the door for the first job and this PR
I was looking at Post Baccs to get into chemistry or chemical engineering but I know less about that field than even IT.

I have read your post thrice so far and I will be doing a lot of IT related research using pointers from it. Thank you.

@MajorGrom and @GandiBaat have already given their suggestions, and I know @wonderbly disagrees with me on this. But let me add something else to it. Maybe you really want to do a masters and have teh money to spend. You already said you have poor grades I believe. So you're not getting funded for your masters (not sure if that's even a thing in Canada, it is in the US: my masters was almost fully funded). If so, keep at it.

If you're instead doing a master's because you think it'll make it easier for you to get a job in your new field, you're probably wasting a lot of time and money to get there. Literally everything you need to know about comp sci and data science (two extremely popular and broad IT fields) is available online for free, or very cheap. You almost nailed it by saying the only way your degree helped is to get your first job. But remember the upfront cost of 75k-150k and 2 years to get that first job.

Instead, learn on your own for a year or so, and even if it takes you another year to get a job, you still saved all of your tuition money and still got the job anyway. Especially in IT, your degree typically doesn't matter at all beyond the ease in getting your first job. But you're paying in time and money for that ease.

You can even look into bootcamps. They are much much cheaper, more intensive, and a lot quicker. Here's a rough comparison:

Masters: 2 years + 100k = internship + first job. Let's say immediately after (but that's being very charitable. people still take several months to land fulltime positions after their degree if it's not in the same company as the internship).

Bootcamp: 6 months + 25k = first job in under 6 months.

So overall in this example, you save 75k and 1 whole year. Maybe this first job sucks and doesn't pay well. Guess what. You're still saving time and getting paid instead of paying and losing time. And by the time you would have graduated, you will probably be close to a promotion and get the same or more than you would out of university too..

IMO if you're looking to get into IT, a master's is almost never worth it. If you think you need the structure and accountabiilty, go for a bootcamp. and don't add it to your resume. Use what you learn there and network. I transitioned to IT from mechanical engineering by myself. It's not that hard to learn what you need to learn. Toss in a bit of luck through smart networking, and you render a master's completely useless.

 

[GandiBaat]

Yep, my mortgage repayment have gone up by about $1,500 in the last few months...

They are saying this is final hike but who knows. This recession has too many pieces. However, its a weird recession. Low paying jobs are plentiful, infact in excess, prices are sky high due to inflation and flooding of market with cash during pandemic and broken supply chains and missing things of everyday need due to lockdowns in China and sanctions on Russia.

It looks like everyone has taken a massive dump at the same time.