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PR card renewal - In person interview at IRCC Etobicoke office

Kalandar

Full Member
Aug 21, 2014
48
5
Need your expert advise in this situation

Last year I was stuck in my home country for long time due to pandemic and my PR card was about to expire hence I applied for my PR card renewal from my home country in April 2021 and came back to Canada in July 1 2021. My total days in Canada were 732 in the last 5 years from the time I applied. Now after waiting for over one and half years I am getting a letter from IRCC on October 25, 2022 for an in-person attendance and then after the examination the office will determine if they would issue me a 5-year or 1-year PR card. I am asked to carry all the documents including residency proofs.

The letter says " In order for IRCC to determine if the PR card that was created for you has the appropriate period of validity and can be distributed to you, or if a PR card of a different validity period should be prepared and issued to you, your attendance is required, as per subsection 58(3) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations (IRPR):......

I have added 500 plus days after returning to Canada with a job in hand, based on this case, can I be issued a PR card with a 5 year validity or they would still evaluate my residency obligation based on the days I had at the time of application.

Would appreciate your advice on what can be done in this situation to retain my permanent residence status and convince the officers
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,437
3,183
Need your expert advise in this situation

Last year I was stuck in my home country for long time due to pandemic and my PR card was about to expire hence I applied for my PR card renewal from my home country in April 2021 and came back to Canada in July 1 2021. My total days in Canada were 732 in the last 5 years from the time I applied. Now after waiting for over one and half years I am getting a letter from IRCC on October 25, 2022 for an in-person attendance and then after the examination the office will determine if they would issue me a 5-year or 1-year PR card. I am asked to carry all the documents including residency proofs.

The letter says " In order for IRCC to determine if the PR card that was created for you has the appropriate period of validity and can be distributed to you, or if a PR card of a different validity period should be prepared and issued to you, your attendance is required, as per subsection 58(3) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations (IRPR):......

I have added 500 plus days after returning to Canada with a job in hand, based on this case, can I be issued a PR card with a 5 year validity or they would still evaluate my residency obligation based on the days I had at the time of application.

Would appreciate your advice on what can be done in this situation to retain my permanent residence status and convince the officers
I have no expert advice to offer. I am no expert. And I am not qualified to give personal advice.

You may not need expert advice . . . as long as you were in compliance with the Residency Obligation when you made the PR card application and you are currently in compliance with the RO.

Unless your credibility is at issue. Which it might be.

While I cannot offer expert advice, I will offer some observations:

If as of the date you made the PR card application you were in RO compliance (more than 730 days in Canada in last five years), AND you have a reasonable amount of documentation to show for this (rental receipts, bank records, employment records, tax records), AND as of the day of your interview you have 1200 days in Canada within the last five years, and likewise some documents to back that up, AND it otherwise appears you are now well settled and living in Canada, this should go OK, a new PR card for five years should be approved and issued.

No problem.

However, your credibility could be at issue, making it more important to have documentation showing your presence in Canada for the time periods you claim. The burden of proof is on you, the PR. Usually that is not an onerous burden, especially for a PR well settled in Canada. But, if the examining official has a negative impression of your credibility, and your paperwork, the objective documentation to prove your presence, is light, you could get entangled in proceedings to terminate your PR status, and pending that be issued a one-year PR card.

You know the facts better than anyone. If IRCC has little or no reason to doubt the information you provide, this should not be a problem.

That said . . . caveats . . .

In 2021 the IRCC guide for PR card applications clearly stated that a PR needed to be IN Canada to be eligible to apply for a PR card. That was clear (not in the fine print). But you were abroad when you applied and you were clearly cutting-it-close, very close. So it is no surprise that your PR card application encountered, well, issues.

You probably already understood that well enough. I mention it because it sets the stage, and while what else is on the stage, or lurking just off stage, will also influence how things go, it is possible, perhaps likely, the official you deal with will be skeptical or even suspicious, and possibly even challenging, even confrontational. I do not know that is how the official will be, but given the background, and not following the rules, it would be prudent to be prepared for an accusatory interview.

It could and probably should go rather smoothly, a simple Q&A, no wrinkles, you give honest answers and you present some documents, and then relatively soon you are approved for and issued a new five-year PR card and, subject to printing problems IRCC seems to be having, the new card on its way to you. Hard to guess.

I cannot guarantee how things will go, but the odds are good it will go OK if --
-- you are currently permanently settled and living in Canada​
-- have been here since July 1, 2021 and can document that​
-- you can document 730 days in Canada in the five years prior to the date of the PR card application in April 2021​

Some looming factors of import:

-- documenting days IN Canada within the five years prior to the date the PR card application was made (suggest you have some documentation showing where you were living in Canada, when, and documents to show where and when you were working in Canada; also precise information about dates of travel and if feasible some documentation to show dates)​
-- documenting return to Canada last year and place of residence and employment since then​
-- some additional documents showing activity in Canada during both periods, ranging from receipts to bank records, tax records, doctor's visits, club activities, whatever paper and digital trail you can present​
-- getting the arithmetic right; not sure how it is you have "added 500 plus days after returning to Canada" in July 2021, in a time a period of less than 500 days, but even though it is not by much less and maybe you are counting to the date of the interview, BUT however it is you are counting days, GET IT RIGHT, as precise as you possibly can . . . this part is as much about being credible as it is the numbers . . . claiming numbers that meet your RO might not be enough if the official has the impression you are not credible​
-- -- be sure your travel dates are as complete and accurate as possible; this is key​
-- -- be prepared to answer questions about, and show the arithmetic for, BOTH periods of time, for days in Canada as of date you made the PR card application (as to preceding five years or since landing if that was less than five years before the date of the application), and for days in Canada within the five years as of the day you go to the interview​
-- -- REMEMBER, only days within the last five years count; it is NOT how many days have you been in Canada, in total, but how many days within the applicable five year time period, so​
-- -- -- the arithmetic for when you made the application will be counting days in Canada from your landing to April 2021 (based on landing in May 2016)​
-- -- -- the arithmetic for the day of the examination will be counting days in Canada for the last five years; so if the interview is November 9, 2022, that arithmetic will be about counting days in Canada between November 9, 2017 and November 9, 2022​
In regards to getting the arithmetic right, a post June 20, 2021 . . .
I am stranded in my home country due to pandemic and severe travel restrictions. I am about to reach Canada with 4 days remaining for expiry and 14 days short (out of 730 days) of meeting my RO compliance.
. . . another post June 16, 2021
I hold a valid PR card and it expires on July 5th, 2021. My total number of days in Canada is 733 (as per my calculation) from the day I landed i.e 5/10/2016.
and then today . . .
My total days in Canada were 732 in the last 5 years from the time I applied.
What you have posted in this forum does not matter. What information you give IRCC matters.

And generally, as long as the PR is here, in Canada, settled and living in Canada, just being close will not cause any problem . . .

. . . UNLESS there are credibility issues.

SUMMARY: At this stage, having been in Canada for more than the last year, unless the examining official has some outright concerns about your credibility, you really should be OK . . . but, you need to get your information in order and get the arithmetic right, including dates for address history and work history, and especially travel history dates.
 

Kalandar

Full Member
Aug 21, 2014
48
5
@
I have no expert advice to offer. I am no expert. And I am not qualified to give personal advice.

You may not need expert advice . . . as long as you were in compliance with the Residency Obligation when you made the PR card application and you are currently in compliance with the RO.

Unless your credibility is at issue. Which it might be.

While I cannot offer expert advice, I will offer some observations:

If as of the date you made the PR card application you were in RO compliance (more than 730 days in Canada in last five years), AND you have a reasonable amount of documentation to show for this (rental receipts, bank records, employment records, tax records), AND as of the day of your interview you have 1200 days in Canada within the last five years, and likewise some documents to back that up, AND it otherwise appears you are now well settled and living in Canada, this should go OK, a new PR card for five years should be approved and issued.

No problem.

However, your credibility could be at issue, making it more important to have documentation showing your presence in Canada for the time periods you claim. The burden of proof is on you, the PR. Usually that is not an onerous burden, especially for a PR well settled in Canada. But, if the examining official has a negative impression of your credibility, and your paperwork, the objective documentation to prove your presence, is light, you could get entangled in proceedings to terminate your PR status, and pending that be issued a one-year PR card.

You know the facts better than anyone. If IRCC has little or no reason to doubt the information you provide, this should not be a problem.

That said . . . caveats . . .

In 2021 the IRCC guide for PR card applications clearly stated that a PR needed to be IN Canada to be eligible to apply for a PR card. That was clear (not in the fine print). But you were abroad when you applied and you were clearly cutting-it-close, very close. So it is no surprise that your PR card application encountered, well, issues.

You probably already understood that well enough. I mention it because it sets the stage, and while what else is on the stage, or lurking just off stage, will also influence how things go, it is possible, perhaps likely, the official you deal with will be skeptical or even suspicious, and possibly even challenging, even confrontational. I do not know that is how the official will be, but given the background, and not following the rules, it would be prudent to be prepared for an accusatory interview.

It could and probably should go rather smoothly, a simple Q&A, no wrinkles, you give honest answers and you present some documents, and then relatively soon you are approved for and issued a new five-year PR card and, subject to printing problems IRCC seems to be having, the new card on its way to you. Hard to guess.

I cannot guarantee how things will go, but the odds are good it will go OK if --
-- you are currently permanently settled and living in Canada​
-- have been here since July 1, 2021 and can document that​
-- you can document 730 days in Canada in the five years prior to the date of the PR card application in April 2021​

Some looming factors of import:

-- documenting days IN Canada within the five years prior to the date the PR card application was made (suggest you have some documentation showing where you were living in Canada, when, and documents to show where and when you were working in Canada; also precise information about dates of travel and if feasible some documentation to show dates)​
-- documenting return to Canada last year and place of residence and employment since then​
-- some additional documents showing activity in Canada during both periods, ranging from receipts to bank records, tax records, doctor's visits, club activities, whatever paper and digital trail you can present​
-- getting the arithmetic right; not sure how it is you have "added 500 plus days after returning to Canada" in July 2021, in a time a period of less than 500 days, but even though it is not by much less and maybe you are counting to the date of the interview, BUT however it is you are counting days, GET IT RIGHT, as precise as you possibly can . . . this part is as much about being credible as it is the numbers . . . claiming numbers that meet your RO might not be enough if the official has the impression you are not credible​
-- -- be sure your travel dates are as complete and accurate as possible; this is key​
-- -- be prepared to answer questions about, and show the arithmetic for, BOTH periods of time, for days in Canada as of date you made the PR card application (as to preceding five years or since landing if that was less than five years before the date of the application), and for days in Canada within the five years as of the day you go to the interview​
-- -- REMEMBER, only days within the last five years count; it is NOT how many days have you been in Canada, in total, but how many days within the applicable five year time period, so​
-- -- -- the arithmetic for when you made the application will be counting days in Canada from your landing to April 2021 (based on landing in May 2016)​
-- -- -- the arithmetic for the day of the examination will be counting days in Canada for the last five years; so if the interview is November 9, 2022, that arithmetic will be about counting days in Canada between November 9, 2017 and November 9, 2022​
In regards to getting the arithmetic right, a post June 20, 2021 . . .

. . . another post June 16, 2021

and then today . . .


What you have posted in this forum does not matter. What information you give IRCC matters.

And generally, as long as the PR is here, in Canada, settled and living in Canada, just being close will not cause any problem . . .

. . . UNLESS there are credibility issues.

SUMMARY: At this stage, having been in Canada for more than the last year, unless the examining official has some outright concerns about your credibility, you really should be OK . . . but, you need to get your information in order and get the arithmetic right, including dates for address history and work history, and especially travel history dates.
@dpenabill Let me start by stating I really loved the way you explain and present your thoughts ..thanks for the response, highly appreciate it, you have touched on important points that I was looking for. I have few questions, on the same:

1) Does the arithmetic of the days in Canada counts 5 years prior to my application date or it would be considered from the day of my interview (Nov 17) as by then it comes to 1022 days.

2) If by chance I fall by few days, do they count Pandemic to be a reason for such a long gap as travelling was restricted in both Canada and home country that includes family health issues which I have proof as well

3) As per the Annex "Proof of residence in Canada for the 5 years prior to the date you applied" - does that mean they are more concerned on my residence obligations prior to the date I have applied. Even if I am settled now with a stable job.

4) If in case I am issued one-year visa, what does that mean and what should be course of action as I am looking to apply for my citizenship next year February.

Would appreciate your inputs on the points above as I am really clueless at this point as I think it would have been better if I had withdrawn my application earlier this year and reapplied for my PR.
 
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scylla

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Jun 8, 2010
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Toronto
Category........
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Buffalo
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App. Filed.......
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AOR Received.
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File Transfer...
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Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
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LANDED..........
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@

Thanks for the response, highly appreciate it, you have touched on important points that I was looking for. I have few questions, on the same:

1) Does the arithmetic of the days in Canada counts 5 years prior to my application date or it would be considered from the day of my interview (Nov 17) as by then it comes to 1022 days.

2) If by chance I fall by few days, do they count Pandemic to be a reason for such a long gap as travelling was restricted in both Canada and home country that includes family health issues which I have proof as well

3) As per the Annex "Proof of residence in Canada for the 5 years prior to the date you applied" - does that mean they are more concerned on my residence obligations prior to the date I have applied. Even if I am settled now with a stable job.

4) If in case I am issued one-year visa, what does that mean and what should be course of action as I am looking to apply for my citizenship next year February.

Would appreciate your inputs on the points above as I am really clueless at this point as I think it would have been better if I had withdrawn my application earlier this year and reapplied for my PR.
1 - Application date
2 - They may or may not consider this.
3 - Yes, they are concerned you applied to renew your card without meeting the residency obligation.
4 - I'll let other comment on this. However if IRCC is reviewing your PR residency obligation then a citizenship application won't be processed until that review is positively resolved.
 
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Kalandar

Full Member
Aug 21, 2014
48
5
1 - Application date
2 - They may or may not consider this.
3 - Yes, they are concerned you applied to renew your card without meeting the residency obligation.
4 - I'll let other comment on this. However if IRCC is reviewing your PR residency obligation then a citizenship application won't be processed until that review is positively resolved.
Thanks for the response, would that be a better idea to withdraw my application now and reapply for renewal? Also, what days is considered as an application data, the date when I send the application or the date they received the application.
 
Last edited:

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
95,939
22,177
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
Thanks for the response, would that be a better idea to withdraw my application now and reapply for renewal? Also, what days is considered as an application data, the date when I send the application or the date they received the application.
I'm not sure if you can withdraw at this point. I think you need to go to the interview and bring evidence with you to prove your residency days. Wait for others to comment on this.

I believe the application date would be the day you signed and sent the application.
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
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I spoke to some one in IRCC before the application and they confirmed that I can send the application from my home country ( I even have the phone conversation recorded) , however it would be dispatched to the local address, hence I did so, because I was travelling in a couple of months and I thought by the time I would be back, I can get my PR card. Can I produce this as a proof that I did this based on the info provided by IRCC?
That's a remarkable report, but not all that surprising, regarding a call centre agent contradicting IRCC's stated policies at the time. Happens.

Until this summer the requirement to be "in" Canada when making a PR card application was in large part unenforceable, which is explained elsewhere in this forum. In particular, despite IRCC's stated policy that to be eligible for a new PR card the application had to be made IN Canada, the fact the application was made while the PR was abroad did not give IRCC a legitimate ground for denying the application (and the Federal Court had specifically ruled this). Generally, typically, the impact of making the application while abroad was --
-- high risk of triggering a referral to Secondary Review and elevated scrutiny, which has often meant a year or more delay in processing the application, and​
-- potentially giving the total stranger bureaucrat processing the application a negative impression about the PR's credibility (as someone not following the rules), also risking elevated scrutiny​

These are connected. Both are about triggering a more thorough screening of the PR and the PR's RO compliance.

In any event, you crossed that bridge a long while ago, so there is no point in trying to withdraw the application, and since an examination to make a Residency Determination is already scheduled, it would do no good to withdraw. And the fact that a call centre agent said it was OK to not comply with the instructions, that makes no difference in the status of the application now.

While actually being in RO compliance is important, and that is the primary subject of the Residency Determination interview you are scheduled to attend, as I made an effort to highlight in my previous post, it appears your credibility is a major factor. In particular, given your return to Canada in July 2021 in conjunction with either having met the RO as of the day you applied in April 2021, or at least being very close to RO compliance at that time, combined with being in Canada now for well more than a year, it is not for sure but it looks like someone at IRCC has some concerns about what you have reported, some concerns about your credibility. Maybe not. But frankly, if IRCC was comfortable with the information in your application, including the travel history, and satisfied you returned to Canada the summer of 2021, the Secondary Review would have, ordinarily, resulted in a decision to approve a new PR card for five years rather than a referral to a local office to conduct further investigation and make a Residency Determination.

Leading to . . .
I have few questions . . .

1) Does the arithmetic of the days in Canada counts 5 years prior to my application date or it would be considered from the day of my interview (Nov 17) as by then it comes to 1022 days.

2) If by chance I fall by few days, do they count Pandemic to be a reason for such a long gap as travelling was restricted in both Canada and home country that includes family health issues which I have proof as well

3) As per the Annex "Proof of residence in Canada for the 5 years prior to the date you applied" - does that mean they are more concerned on my residence obligations prior to the date I have applied. Even if I am settled now with a stable job.

4) If in case I am issued one-year visa, what does that mean and what should be course of action as I am looking to apply for my citizenship next year February.

Would appreciate your inputs on the points above as I am really clueless at this point as I think it would have been better if I had withdrawn my application earlier this year and reapplied for my PR.
1) Does the arithmetic of the days in Canada counts 5 years prior to my application date or it would be considered from the day of my interview (Nov 17) as by then it comes to 1022 days.

Both. Both can matter. Best to be prepared to present evidence/documents showing your presence in Canada during BOTH time periods. Organize your documents based on what period of time they show your residency/presence in Canada.

While I previously focused on the "arithmetic," that was to emphasize the importance of a precise, accurate count . . . the arithmetic is actually automatic if you get your travel dates correct. And that is the key: detail your travel dates, completely listing 'from date' and 'to date' for every trip outside Canada . . . one travel history for the period between your landing and the date you signed the PR card application (which is May 2016 to April 2021 as I understand it) . . . and a separate travel history (which will include dates that overlap with the first) for the period November 17, 2017 to November 17, 2022.

And, again, have your supporting documents organized so it is easy to correlate the documents to the period of time they show your residency and presence in Canada.

The interview may focus only on the May 2016 to April 2021 period of time (based on date of application). By now you should have definitively determined the number of days you were in Canada during that period of time.

But it could be just as important to document the fact that, as of the day of the interview, as of now, you have been in Canada for more than 730 days in the previous five years. Hopefully you have some documents showing your flight when returning to Canada. At the least, have some documents objectively showing your presence here IN Canada as soon as possible following the return date in July 2021. And, of course, supporting documents to show your residency and presence from then until now.

At the risk of being overly-cautious, and potentially just plain wrong, to my view it warrants repeating that it seems IRCC has significant concerns about what you are reporting, since the numbers you are reporting here would ordinarily not trigger a formal Residency Determination examination for a PR currently settled in Canada, your numbers at the least indicating that you are currently well within the RO range (well, that is other than the inconsistencies from post to post . . . just a day or so ago you were saying you had 700 plus days credit and since July 2021 added 500 more, as in more than 1200 total, but now you are saying 1022 total . . . and again what you say here does not matter, but for the interview/examination you need to get your information in order, and especially list the travel dates as precisely as possible).

2) If by chance I fall by few days, do they count Pandemic to be a reason for such a long gap as travelling was restricted in both Canada and home country that includes family health issues which I have proof as well

Only days in Canada will count toward complying with the RO. There are no credits for good excuses.

If it is determined you are in breach of the RO, they will consider any and all explanations you present for why you remained abroad so long as part of evaluating whether there are H&C reasons sufficient to allow you to keep PR status.

Given the numbers (apparently a small breach at worst) and the last period of time you were abroad was during the peak of the global pandemic, it is very difficult to conceive there will be a negative outcome . . . UNLESS (sorry to be beating this drum so incessantly) there are real concerns about the accuracy or completeness of the information you provide, including information with the application and information presented in this examination. But, in fact (same drum beat), similarly in regards to scheduling this examination.

Probably a good idea to also have some documents to support any of your reasons for not returning to Canada sooner.

3) As per the Annex "Proof of residence in Canada for the 5 years prior to the date you applied" - does that mean they are more concerned on my residence obligations prior to the date I have applied. Even if I am settled now with a stable job.

It is important to bring what they ask for in the communication you received. It is difficult to discern just what it is that is a "concern," let alone what is of "more" concern, and in any event you need to be prepared to address any and all potential concerns . . . and, to be clear, prepared in regards to all periods of time you reported being in Canada.

As previously addressed, come prepared to document residency and presence for BOTH periods of time, with your documents well organized and correlated to the time periods they show residency and presence.

4) If in case I am issued one-year visa, what does that mean and what should be course of action as I am looking to apply for my citizenship next year February.

Will address this in a separate post.
 
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dpenabill

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4) If in case I am issued one-year visa, what does that mean and what should be course of action as I am looking to apply for my citizenship next year February.
4) If in case I am issued one-year visa, what does that mean and what should be course of action as I am looking to apply for my citizenship next year February.

It is not a "visa" but a status card, a PR card valid for one-year. I will address the process more below, but in very general terms this will happen if there is a negative Residency Determination and it means you are at some stage in the process of having your PR status terminated, and will need to appeal in order to save your PR status.

There are rather few reliable anecdotal reports in this forum about proceedings of this sort, at this stage, so we have very little information about this based on the experiences of other forum participants.

The procedure involved here is also not commonly referenced or described in IAD decisions, which is probably in large part a reflection of how few such cases result in the issuance of a Removal Order and are appealed. But this too means we do not have much detailed information about the particular procedures involved. Moreover, among those few IAD cases originating with a PR card application reaching this stage, the circumstances vary widely and many involve PRs outside Canada in the meantime, so there are variations in the process and this too makes it difficult to map the procedure in other cases, like yours.

That said, in general terms the procedure is similar to the procedure at a Port-of-Entry. If there is a negative Residency Determination that means, at the least, a 44(1) Inadmissibility Report is prepared. I do not know whether the Report is immediately reviewed by another officer (technically designated the Minister's Delegate) or if that is scheduled to occur later. In either event, if there is a negative decision resulting in the Report being prepared, or if that is reviewed and a Removal Order is issued, that is the circumstance in which IRCC will issue a one-year PR card.

If just the 44(1) Report is prepared and it has not yet reviewed, so no decision yet on whether a Removal Order will be issued, you just wait for the outcome of the review. If and when a Removal Order is issued, that is when you will need to make an appeal.

HERE'S the RUB, And it's the Same Old Drum Beat (so there is some repetition here):

Just being scheduled for a Residency Determination examination at this stage is at least somewhat incongruous with your account of the facts. Even if you were short of meeting the RO in April 2021, when the PR card application was made, by your account you were at least very close. We just don't see reports of this. Something is askew, off somehow. The possibilities are too many and too unpredictable to warrant speculating, but just as examples, it could range from IRCC not being aware you returned to Canada in July 2021, or skeptical you have returned and are in Canada, to IRCC having serious questions about the accuracy of information you provided (suspicions about your credibility).

If you go to the examination prepared to document your days in Canada prior to making the application, and you can show your return to Canada in July 2021 and residence in Canada since then, there should be NO problem . . . again, UNLESS something about your case has triggered real suspicion about you and the information you have provided.

There is one exception. It does not seem to apply here but it is hard to tell for sure. There is some possibility that a 44(1) Report has already been prepared, and if so that would be based on calculating a breach in the RO as of the date you made your PR card application. That would trigger the provision which stops giving credit for days in Canada . . . meaning that days you have been in Canada since April 2021 are NOT counting toward RO compliance.

That would mean this examination is actually the review of the 44(1) Report, and it is your opportunity to present proof of your presence in Canada between May 2016 and the application date in April 2021, to show the Report is not valid in law (meaning to show you actually met the RO), OR to present H&C reasons why you should be allowed to keep your PR status despite not meeting the RO as of April 2021.

This does not change things much in terms of what YOU NEED to do . . . which is --

-- have a precise travel history for BOTH periods of time, both​
-- -- the period May 2016 to April 2021, and​
-- -- the period November 17, 2017 to November 17, 2022​
-- organize your documents based on what period of time they show your residency/presence in Canada, clearly correlating the respective documents to the period of time they show residency and presence​
-- bring any other information or documents the communication instructed you to bring​
-- be prepared to be fully cooperative and to HONESTLY answer questions (again, it seems to me your credibility is very much on the line here)​
-- be prepared to explain your reasons for not returning to Canada sooner (and this definitely includes referencing the difficulty Covid posed), and present supporting documents that are relevant (such as a doctor's letter, for example, if a medical situation is part of explaining the reasons for remaining abroad)​


Suggestion For Organizing Travel History Information and Reference to Supporting Documents:

I generally avoid offering this sort of thing, steering well clear of giving advice. But this is simple, straight-forward, but perhaps because it is so simple it might be easily overlooked.

Create a table in word-processing, or use a spreadsheet, which has just three columns:
From -- To -- Days outside Canada

And then list every trip outside Canada, listing the "From" date, the "To" date, and the number of day outside Canada. Just like you would in the PR card application (you could add a destination column if you like). AND you can use a sample of the PR card application to be sure the count of days is accurate. That is, open the application form and enter the from and to dates, and the form will automatically count the days, so you do not have to actually count days, and then you can copy that number into your table (or if you have the software for it, you could just use the application chart for question 5.5 and copy or print that part).

Make TWO of these. One for the May 2016 to April 2021 time period. The other for the November 17, 2017 to November 17, 2022 time period. (And yeah, this means there will be some information, some trips, that populate both tables.)

And then be sure to organize and correlate the relevant documents showing residency and presence to the respective time periods in Canada.

Make sure to take originals and TWO copies of every document, including your table of travel history. One copy is for IRCC if they want it. One copy is for your records in which you keep an exact copy of everything you present and submit.
 
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armoured

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Create a table in word-processing, or use a spreadsheet, which has just three columns:
From -- To -- Days outside Canada
...
And then list every trip outside Canada, listing the "From" date, the "To" date, and the number of day outside Canada. Just like you would in the PR card application (you could add a destination column if you like). AND you can use a sample of the PR card application to be sure the count of days is accurate. That is, open the application form and enter the from and to dates, and the form will automatically count the days, so you do not have to actually count days, and then you can copy that number into your table (or if you have the software for it, you could just use the application chart for question 5.5 and copy or print that part).
For clarity, any day in which the applicant spends any time in Canada at all (notably the actual day of departure or arrival) counts as a day 'physically present' in Canada for purposes of the residency obligation (and citizenship).

I point this out not to be pedantic, but because this is a thing that catches people up all the time (in both these calcs and similar in other contexts).

Hence I would actually suggest (for arguably excessive clarity) that all applicants doing such a table with extra columns, labelled explicitly "day of departure" , "start of days abroad" , "end of days abroad" and "day of arrival" (those two in-between can be automatically calculated). Done the way the first and last column ALWAYS correspond to travel day and hence the airline ticket (leaving aside for now travel that crosses days, which, well, figure out). You can also easily add columns to show days in Canada and days outside of Canada.

This seems excessive, I know. But from long experience with spreadsheets and tracking systems, it can really help to figure out errors and force proper record-keeping (especially compared to the alternative of having to reconstruct the past going back), as well as ability to demonstrate to someone (eg IRCC) that you know the difference and have recorded it properly.

There are less explicit and parsimonious ways that may look more 'clean' at first glance to do the same thing (it is just arithmetic) eg with only three columns - but more information with notes is easier to figure out. Whatever approach one takes, leave notes for yourself in the table and be explicit about exactly what you are recording, because it may not be clear to you later and harder to explain to others if you need to.

[I say this as I reconstruct a table for family members with extra columns because I am not 100% certain which I have recorded...]
 
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Kalandar

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Aug 21, 2014
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That's a remarkable report, but not all that surprising, regarding a call centre agent contradicting IRCC's stated policies at the time. Happens.

Until this summer the requirement to be "in" Canada when making a PR card application was in large part unenforceable, which is explained elsewhere in this forum. In particular, despite IRCC's stated policy that to be eligible for a new PR card the application had to be made IN Canada, the fact the application was made while the PR was abroad did not give IRCC a legitimate ground for denying the application (and the Federal Court had specifically ruled this). Generally, typically, the impact of making the application while abroad was --
-- high risk of triggering a referral to Secondary Review and elevated scrutiny, which has often meant a year or more delay in processing the application, and​
-- potentially giving the total stranger bureaucrat processing the application a negative impression about the PR's credibility (as someone not following the rules), also risking elevated scrutiny​

These are connected. Both are about triggering a more thorough screening of the PR and the PR's RO compliance.

In any event, you crossed that bridge a long while ago, so there is no point in trying to withdraw the application, and since an examination to make a Residency Determination is already scheduled, it would do no good to withdraw. And the fact that a call centre agent said it was OK to not comply with the instructions, that makes no difference in the status of the application now.

While actually being in RO compliance is important, and that is the primary subject of the Residency Determination interview you are scheduled to attend, as I made an effort to highlight in my previous post, it appears your credibility is a major factor. In particular, given your return to Canada in July 2021 in conjunction with either having met the RO as of the day you applied in April 2021, or at least being very close to RO compliance at that time, combined with being in Canada now for well more than a year, it is not for sure but it looks like someone at IRCC has some concerns about what you have reported, some concerns about your credibility. Maybe not. But frankly, if IRCC was comfortable with the information in your application, including the travel history, and satisfied you returned to Canada the summer of 2021, the Secondary Review would have, ordinarily, resulted in a decision to approve a new PR card for five years rather than a referral to a local office to conduct further investigation and make a Residency Determination.

Leading to . . .


1) Does the arithmetic of the days in Canada counts 5 years prior to my application date or it would be considered from the day of my interview (Nov 17) as by then it comes to 1022 days.

Both. Both can matter. Best to be prepared to present evidence/documents showing your presence in Canada during BOTH time periods. Organize your documents based on what period of time they show your residency/presence in Canada.

While I previously focused on the "arithmetic," that was to emphasize the importance of a precise, accurate count . . . the arithmetic is actually automatic if you get your travel dates correct. And that is the key: detail your travel dates, completely listing 'from date' and 'to date' for every trip outside Canada . . . one travel history for the period between your landing and the date you signed the PR card application (which is May 2016 to April 2021 as I understand it) . . . and a separate travel history (which will include dates that overlap with the first) for the period November 17, 2017 to November 17, 2022.

And, again, have your supporting documents organized so it is easy to correlate the documents to the period of time they show your residency and presence in Canada.

The interview may focus only on the May 2016 to April 2021 period of time (based on date of application). By now you should have definitively determined the number of days you were in Canada during that period of time.

But it could be just as important to document the fact that, as of the day of the interview, as of now, you have been in Canada for more than 730 days in the previous five years. Hopefully you have some documents showing your flight when returning to Canada. At the least, have some documents objectively showing your presence here IN Canada as soon as possible following the return date in July 2021. And, of course, supporting documents to show your residency and presence from then until now.

At the risk of being overly-cautious, and potentially just plain wrong, to my view it warrants repeating that it seems IRCC has significant concerns about what you are reporting, since the numbers you are reporting here would ordinarily not trigger a formal Residency Determination examination for a PR currently settled in Canada, your numbers at the least indicating that you are currently well within the RO range (well, that is other than the inconsistencies from post to post . . . just a day or so ago you were saying you had 700 plus days credit and since July 2021 added 500 more, as in more than 1200 total, but now you are saying 1022 total . . . and again what you say here does not matter, but for the interview/examination you need to get your information in order, and especially list the travel dates as precisely as possible).

2) If by chance I fall by few days, do they count Pandemic to be a reason for such a long gap as travelling was restricted in both Canada and home country that includes family health issues which I have proof as well

Only days in Canada will count toward complying with the RO. There are no credits for good excuses.

If it is determined you are in breach of the RO, they will consider any and all explanations you present for why you remained abroad so long as part of evaluating whether there are H&C reasons sufficient to allow you to keep PR status.

Given the numbers (apparently a small breach at worst) and the last period of time you were abroad was during the peak of the global pandemic, it is very difficult to conceive there will be a negative outcome . . . UNLESS (sorry to be beating this drum so incessantly) there are real concerns about the accuracy or completeness of the information you provide, including information with the application and information presented in this examination. But, in fact (same drum beat), similarly in regards to scheduling this examination.

Probably a good idea to also have some documents to support any of your reasons for not returning to Canada sooner.

3) As per the Annex "Proof of residence in Canada for the 5 years prior to the date you applied" - does that mean they are more concerned on my residence obligations prior to the date I have applied. Even if I am settled now with a stable job.

It is important to bring what they ask for in the communication you received. It is difficult to discern just what it is that is a "concern," let alone what is of "more" concern, and in any event you need to be prepared to address any and all potential concerns . . . and, to be clear, prepared in regards to all periods of time you reported being in Canada.

As previously addressed, come prepared to document residency and presence for BOTH periods of time, with your documents well organized and correlated to the time periods they show residency and presence.

4) If in case I am issued one-year visa, what does that mean and what should be course of action as I am looking to apply for my citizenship next year February.

Will address this in a separate post.
This really entails in depth that I was looking for and had confusion with. really appreciate . You mentioned "Until this summer the requirement to be "in" Canada when making a PR card application was in large part unenforceable ", does that mean the issue might not be my sending the application from abroad but the information I provided might have raised concerns pertaining to my RO.

1) In regard to the first point, and as you clearly pointed out, I did check my days and it comes out to 733 days from May 10 2016 to April 30 2021, where I considered by day of departure from and arrival in Canada as days "IN" Canada. I really have no issues producing residency proofs post July 2021 and my stay from May 10 2016 to Apr 30 2021, its just that what would they consider to be legit. Plus, I already have got employment proof and pay stubs and filed my taxes for all the years since 2016. I have held my lease of my apt since 2018 and carry the same residential address till date ever since. The Phone number has been the same since 2017.

2) I can understand any consideration specially H&C because of pandemic is subjective to the case I present, and I do have appropriate medical prescriptions and letters from back home, not sure if they would take that in account. However even they must be aware of the condition back then where travelling ban was in full force and economic conditions was worse everywhere hence being here with no income would have had severe effects. Hope they must be considerate on these issues. Just saying

3) As you have suggested, I am gathering all the documents for both periods and prepare for any 'concern' they might have on my application. just thinking what should I show on about they asked about "Total of all absences from Canada (for the 5 years prior to the date you applied)"..
 

Kalandar

Full Member
Aug 21, 2014
48
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4) If in case I am issued one-year visa, what does that mean and what should be course of action as I am looking to apply for my citizenship next year February.

It is not a "visa" but a status card, a PR card valid for one-year. I will address the process more below, but in very general terms this will happen if there is a negative Residency Determination and it means you are at some stage in the process of having your PR status terminated, and will need to appeal in order to save your PR status.

There are rather few reliable anecdotal reports in this forum about proceedings of this sort, at this stage, so we have very little information about this based on the experiences of other forum participants.

The procedure involved here is also not commonly referenced or described in IAD decisions, which is probably in large part a reflection of how few such cases result in the issuance of a Removal Order and are appealed. But this too means we do not have much detailed information about the particular procedures involved. Moreover, among those few IAD cases originating with a PR card application reaching this stage, the circumstances vary widely and many involve PRs outside Canada in the meantime, so there are variations in the process and this too makes it difficult to map the procedure in other cases, like yours.

That said, in general terms the procedure is similar to the procedure at a Port-of-Entry. If there is a negative Residency Determination that means, at the least, a 44(1) Inadmissibility Report is prepared. I do not know whether the Report is immediately reviewed by another officer (technically designated the Minister's Delegate) or if that is scheduled to occur later. In either event, if there is a negative decision resulting in the Report being prepared, or if that is reviewed and a Removal Order is issued, that is the circumstance in which IRCC will issue a one-year PR card.

If just the 44(1) Report is prepared and it has not yet reviewed, so no decision yet on whether a Removal Order will be issued, you just wait for the outcome of the review. If and when a Removal Order is issued, that is when you will need to make an appeal.

HERE'S the RUB, And it's the Same Old Drum Beat (so there is some repetition here):

Just being scheduled for a Residency Determination examination at this stage is at least somewhat incongruous with your account of the facts. Even if you were short of meeting the RO in April 2021, when the PR card application was made, by your account you were at least very close. We just don't see reports of this. Something is askew, off somehow. The possibilities are too many and too unpredictable to warrant speculating, but just as examples, it could range from IRCC not being aware you returned to Canada in July 2021, or skeptical you have returned and are in Canada, to IRCC having serious questions about the accuracy of information you provided (suspicions about your credibility).

If you go to the examination prepared to document your days in Canada prior to making the application, and you can show your return to Canada in July 2021 and residence in Canada since then, there should be NO problem . . . again, UNLESS something about your case has triggered real suspicion about you and the information you have provided.

There is one exception. It does not seem to apply here but it is hard to tell for sure. There is some possibility that a 44(1) Report has already been prepared, and if so that would be based on calculating a breach in the RO as of the date you made your PR card application. That would trigger the provision which stops giving credit for days in Canada . . . meaning that days you have been in Canada since April 2021 are NOT counting toward RO compliance.

That would mean this examination is actually the review of the 44(1) Report, and it is your opportunity to present proof of your presence in Canada between May 2016 and the application date in April 2021, to show the Report is not valid in law (meaning to show you actually met the RO), OR to present H&C reasons why you should be allowed to keep your PR status despite not meeting the RO as of April 2021.

This does not change things much in terms of what YOU NEED to do . . . which is --

-- have a precise travel history for BOTH periods of time, both​
-- -- the period May 2016 to April 2021, and​
-- -- the period November 17, 2017 to November 17, 2022​
-- organize your documents based on what period of time they show your residency/presence in Canada, clearly correlating the respective documents to the period of time they show residency and presence​
-- bring any other information or documents the communication instructed you to bring​
-- be prepared to be fully cooperative and to HONESTLY answer questions (again, it seems to me your credibility is very much on the line here)​
-- be prepared to explain your reasons for not returning to Canada sooner (and this definitely includes referencing the difficulty Covid posed), and present supporting documents that are relevant (such as a doctor's letter, for example, if a medical situation is part of explaining the reasons for remaining abroad)​


Suggestion For Organizing Travel History Information and Reference to Supporting Documents:

I generally avoid offering this sort of thing, steering well clear of giving advice. But this is simple, straight-forward, but perhaps because it is so simple it might be easily overlooked.

Create a table in word-processing, or use a spreadsheet, which has just three columns:
From -- To -- Days outside Canada

And then list every trip outside Canada, listing the "From" date, the "To" date, and the number of day outside Canada. Just like you would in the PR card application (you could add a destination column if you like). AND you can use a sample of the PR card application to be sure the count of days is accurate. That is, open the application form and enter the from and to dates, and the form will automatically count the days, so you do not have to actually count days, and then you can copy that number into your table (or if you have the software for it, you could just use the application chart for question 5.5 and copy or print that part).

Make TWO of these. One for the May 2016 to April 2021 time period. The other for the November 17, 2017 to November 17, 2022 time period. (And yeah, this means there will be some information, some trips, that populate both tables.)

And then be sure to organize and correlate the relevant documents showing residency and presence to the respective time periods in Canada.

Make sure to take originals and TWO copies of every document, including your table of travel history. One copy is for IRCC if they want it. One copy is for your records in which you keep an exact copy of everything you present and submit.
4) The explanation you provided or the 1 year validity PR card is really rare to find and I wasn't aware of this till date or couldn't find it else where. That said, I am quite anxious by the fact how deep problem I am in now, with so many if and buts hovering around me, even though I could do my best to be here, get a job and paying tax on time and now struggling to retain my residency in this country. Though as you have mentioned, I have all the documents to back my applications and statements for any period, still I am perplexed as where this matter can go and what I have to tackle if things go south. I was planning to do my tickets to travel to my home country for 2 weeks because of some family problem and looking to book my tickets for December mid assuming that I would get my PR card on Nov 17, as I see the prices of tickets are reaching beyond affordability .

I do have an excel sheet where I am tracking my travel history. Seems I need to refine the calculation and get the arithmetic right which I now know is very crucial

I appreciate all the insights and suggestions you have shared and I sincerely admire the effort you have taken to share your thoughts.
 

Kalandar

Full Member
Aug 21, 2014
48
5
For clarity, any day in which the applicant spends any time in Canada at all (notably the actual day of departure or arrival) counts as a day 'physically present' in Canada for purposes of the residency obligation (and citizenship).

I point this out not to be pedantic, but because this is a thing that catches people up all the time (in both these calcs and similar in other contexts).

Hence I would actually suggest (for arguably excessive clarity) that all applicants doing such a table with extra columns, labelled explicitly "day of departure" , "start of days abroad" , "end of days abroad" and "day of arrival" (those two in-between can be automatically calculated). Done the way the first and last column ALWAYS correspond to travel day and hence the airline ticket (leaving aside for now travel that crosses days, which, well, figure out). You can also easily add columns to show days in Canada and days outside of Canada.

This seems excessive, I know. But from long experience with spreadsheets and tracking systems, it can really help to figure out errors and force proper record-keeping (especially compared to the alternative of having to reconstruct the past going back), as well as ability to demonstrate to someone (eg IRCC) that you know the difference and have recorded it properly.

There are less explicit and parsimonious ways that may look more 'clean' at first glance to do the same thing (it is just arithmetic) eg with only three columns - but more information with notes is easier to figure out. Whatever approach one takes, leave notes for yourself in the table and be explicit about exactly what you are recording, because it may not be clear to you later and harder to explain to others if you need to.

[I say this as I reconstruct a table for family members with extra columns because I am not 100% certain which I have recorded...]
thanks for sharing on how to have a clear travel history sheet. I have one but it seems its not as good as I thought it is. I would really appreciate if you could share the tracker you maintain with the calculation. Also once I arrived Canada at 11:30 PM, so can I treat this as one day in Canada or there are any time range that determines such calculations
 

armoured

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Feb 1, 2015
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thanks for sharing on how to have a clear travel history sheet. I have one but it seems its not as good as I thought it is. I would really appreciate if you could share the tracker you maintain with the calculation. Also once I arrived Canada at 11:30 PM, so can I treat this as one day in Canada or there are any time range that determines such calculations
I do not have this complete. Maybe I'll eventually do a version in google sheets but it's not a priority.

In simple terms (C here below means columns here, not cells as in excel):

C1 - Day of departure (*inside Canada)
C2 - Start date outside (= C1+ 1 day)
C3 - End day outside (= C4 -1 day)
C4 - Day of return (*inside Canada)

C5 - trip days outside Canada (=C3 - C2)

Clever types will include a mechanism to count days inside Canada and to do calcs for five year periods, etc.
 
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dpenabill

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@Kalandar --Overall: if you have a significant amount of evidence of your residency and presence, and the calculation of 733 days in Canada between May 2016 and April 30, 2021 is accurate, and you likewise have evidence regarding residency and presence in Canada since July 1, 2021, so that you now have > 1000 days credit for presence between November 17, 2017 and November 17, 2022 . . . That should resolve IRCC's concerns.

But it could still take awhile to get a new PR card. And I am not certain.

4) The explanation you provided or the 1 year validity PR card is really rare to find and I wasn't aware of this till date or couldn't find it else where. That said, I am quite anxious by the fact how deep problem I am in now, with so many if and buts hovering around me, even though I could do my best to be here, get a job and paying tax on time and now struggling to retain my residency in this country. Though as you have mentioned, I have all the documents to back my applications and statements for any period, still I am perplexed as where this matter can go and what I have to tackle if things go south. I was planning to do my tickets to travel to my home country for 2 weeks because of some family problem and looking to book my tickets for December mid assuming that I would get my PR card on Nov 17, as I see the prices of tickets are reaching beyond affordability .
First, it is highly unlikely you will get a PR card, either a 5-year or a 1-year card, at the interview, and given other reports about production issues, perhaps not for quite awhile. If you travel abroad you will probably need to rely on getting a PR Travel Document to return to Canada.

Secondly, I cannot guess why, in particular, IRCC has concerns about your admissibility, your RO compliance, at this stage. So I cannot guess how serious those concerns are. It is very possible that your appearance at the interview and presentation of information will readily, almost easily, totally satisfy whatever concerns have led to this. And you will be approved for a five year card. In fact, that would be my best guess as to what is likely . . . except, based on the facts you describe, I would have guessed that outcome, card approved and delivered, before now, without having to attend a Residency Determination examination.

As for the difference between a five year and one year card, and when the latter might be issued rather than a five year card, that is specified in the regulations, Section 54 in the IRPR (Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations), which you can see here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-227/page-8.html#h-686316 The regulation which requires the application to be made "in Canada" is Section 56(2)(a) can be seen there as well.

This really entails in depth that I was looking for and had confusion with. really appreciate . You mentioned "Until this summer the requirement to be "in" Canada when making a PR card application was in large part unenforceable ", does that mean the issue might not be my sending the application from abroad but the information I provided might have raised concerns pertaining to my RO.
You mentioned "Until this summer the requirement to be "in" Canada when making a PR card application was in large part unenforceable ", does that mean the issue might not be my sending the application from abroad . . ..

Applying from abroad was probably what triggered, or a big factor in what triggered, IRCC having issues with your case. There is no indication that is what is problematic now except to the extent it may influence perceptions about your credibility.

What triggers non-routine processing, or increased levels of scrutiny, are often not the primary focus of the non-routine processing or increased scrutiny that then takes place. The application from abroad, particularly in conjunction with cutting-it-so-close to the RO, almost certainly is what triggered the initial referral for non-routine processing (speculating some, but it appears your application was in Secondary Review for a year or so before it was referred to the local office for a Residency Determination).

Based on what you have indicated about the communication from IRCC, it looks like this is specifically about RO compliance. BUT you say your April 30, 2021 application was made with 733 days credit, so was made when you were in RO compliance. So IRCC should have approved the application and issued a five year card . . . UNLESS it has reason to question whether you were actually IN Canada 733 days during that time.

And this is still what would ordinarily be expected, even though following the fifth year anniversary of your landing, in May 2021, you were in breach of the RO by a little (due to being outside Canada and losing credit for the days in the summer of 2016 as they fell outside the relevant five years . . . something you and I actually discussed in this forum in the summer of 2021).

But considering your return in July 2021 and presence here since, that really should not be the problem.

So, as I said above, it is very possible that your appearance at the interview and presentation of information will readily, almost easily, totally satisfy whatever concerns have led to this. And you will be approved for a five year card. Which, however, it will still take awhile to actually get.

I am not certain of that (no guarantees). A lot depends on the accuracy of your information.

I previously mentioned the possibility that at some point IRCC already prepared a 44(1) Report . . . which technically it could have done during the period of time you were in breach of the RO following the fifth year anniversary of your landing (until you had been back in Canada long enough after July 1, 2021 to get back into RO compliance). But we do not see that sort of overly strict gotcha-enforcement by IRCC in any other case . . . and even if that is what has happened (noting this does not seem likely), even if that happened, your evidence documenting presence during the first five years and your return and presence since July 2021 should easily tip the scales toward a positive Residency Determination . . . and even if not, yes, just the impact of Covid in 2020 up to July 2021 should readily be enough for H&C relief.
 

Kalandar

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Aug 21, 2014
48
5
I do not have this complete. Maybe I'll eventually do a version in google sheets but it's not a priority.

In simple terms (C here below means columns here, not cells as in excel):

C1 - Day of departure (*inside Canada)
C2 - Start date outside (= C1+ 1 day)
C3 - End day outside (= C4 -1 day)
C4 - Day of return (*inside Canada)

C5 - trip days outside Canada (=C3 - C2)

Clever types will include a mechanism to count days inside Canada and to do calcs for five year periods, etc.
This really works, thanks a lot for sharing this.
 
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