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montrealworker

Star Member
Sep 25, 2022
105
5
I think this is a misstatement, as impossible to compare: only non-citizens can apply to become citizens.

And at any rate, goes down the same mistaken "something different happened to me therefore it's wrong because discrimination" blah blah blah. That's not the way the charter works. It prohibits discrimination based on being a member of certain 'groups', but there's no indication anywhere, in the charter or court cases (as far as I'm aware) that 'canadians (including PRs) applying for some benefit' are considered a 'group.'

Or put differently: yes, the government often can 'discriminate' between cases that are different. It can issue passports on an urgent basis to those who need them earlier. It already has a process to give urgent treatment for those who need citizenship for, eg., employment in Canada (and yet oddly we see here all the time people asking about whether they could ask for that so they could work outside Canada - which is, you know, funny). I believe, legally, it could decide to give priority to those applicants for citizenship who are clearly residing in Canada (or, other side of the coin, de-prioritize those applications for those outside Canada).

And sure - some here take the extreme position that "the law doesn't specifically say anything about it, therefore I'm going to do it." Okay - but it doesn't automatically follow that you have a legal basis to complain about discrimination (equality of treatment or protection) under the Charter if they decide to slow walk your application. (Side note: disagree with me? Okay, hire a lawyer).



Exactly. (Also just to make clear my comments above not directed at hyou)
Dear Mr. Armoured

Do you mean by clearly residing in Canada so the 3 years - 5 years rule is no longer applicable? If your children's travel to work in USA they become bad boys and non canadians? you saying they treat people with this mentality? That means if someone moves even inside from QC to Ontario then they should be punished by local authorities...

is this what you are saying from your experience... or you talking about another country in 3rd developed world like somali lands?

Please explain, thanks a lot.
 

canvis2006

Champion Member
Dec 27, 2009
2,383
309
Toronto
Visa Office......
Paris, France
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FC4 - PGP
App. Filed.......
May 2009
Doc's Request.
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File Transfer...
Jan. 2013
Med's Request
May 2013
Passport Req..
July 2013
VISA ISSUED...
August 2013
LANDED..........
Sept 2013
Am lost cause some who stayed have their application delayed, some who had to attend to urgent things and travelled overseas to feed their families had normal processing time......

do you mean that the guidance in ICCR website is not true and they have bad intensions?
Don’t worry, we can’t know why some cases are delayed and some processed easily. It depends

you should hopefully be ok as you indicate that you can travel back to Canada upon need. Even some of our family members (seniors) were outside Canada for almost a year and came back upon oath notifications. (They did not get called for interview and were exempt from test as they over 60), now Canadian citizens. It helps being honest and explain why the need to stay outside canada. For example, some countries have complex/long process for retirement/pension applications and issuance so person has to stay there until its sorted/started etc like fir my parents so they told cic during their pr and citizenships. No issues experienced.

just be prepared to pay expensive air tickets to canada if you get called on short notices.
Good luck
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,282
8,889
Do you mean by clearly residing in Canada so the 3 years - 5 years rule is no longer applicable?
I am saying that within the limits of the regulations, I believe they can prioritize some applications over others, and such prioritization is not (inherently) contrary to the Charter of Rights. Having facially valid 'policy reasons' would likely be sufficient.

Beyond that, I have no detailed information beyond what's been posted here.

If your children's travel to work in USA they become bad boys and non canadians? you saying they treat people with this mentality? That means if someone moves even inside from QC to Ontario then they should be punished by local authorities...

is this what you are saying from your experience... or you talking about another country in 3rd developed world like somali lands?
Florid language and accusations aside, I don't see anything inherently 'wrong' with government prioritizing applications for citizenship for valid reasons, including their demonstrated intent (demonstrated by behaviour) to continue to reside and work in Canada. There are plausible policy reasons to do so. Other parts of the citizenship process are demonstrably about policy outcomes that the government wishes to achieve.

And it's simply a fact of life that achieving some policy outcomes is more beneficial to some than to others. That process is not inherently discriminatory (in the Charter sense).
 

montrealworker

Star Member
Sep 25, 2022
105
5
I am saying that within the limits of the regulations, I believe they can prioritize some applications over others, and such prioritization is not (inherently) contrary to the Charter of Rights. Having facially valid 'policy reasons' would likely be sufficient.

Beyond that, I have no detailed information beyond what's been posted here.



Florid language and accusations aside, I don't see anything inherently 'wrong' with government prioritizing applications for citizenship for valid reasons, including their demonstrated intent (demonstrated by behaviour) to continue to reside and work in Canada. There are plausible policy reasons to do so. Other parts of the citizenship process are demonstrably about policy outcomes that the government wishes to achieve.

And it's simply a fact of life that achieving some policy outcomes is more beneficial to some than to others. That process is not inherently discriminatory (in the Charter sense).
VIP armoured : you hinting that they will withdrew the Canadian citizenship from the ones who work in USA? is this what makes things reasonable to you?
 

iceman55

Hero Member
May 1, 2022
518
259
VIP armoured : you hinting that they will withdrew the Canadian citizenship from the ones who work in USA? is this what makes things reasonable to you?
Just in the interest of your own sake, I would say not to worry about these things since you have a lot of time on you hands. There's no point stretching hypothetical scenarios.

It's an open forum and you don't know what others motivations are. The less informed you are, the most others will try to scare you into folliwng their ways. That's another reason why I'd suggest you go through the other posts yourself and come to a conclusion. Then you can compare it with what others say. There's no reason to rely on others to collect opinions and proivide a summary. All the individual posts are avaialble here. If you rely on others they're going to add their own wishes/flavor to it and you're going to get low quality responses.

The Charter is a generic thing and most of the time it could be interpreted to support pretty much any idea. If you go through the forum yourself and see if IRCC is trying to trick people outside the country or not or how frequently that happens.

Wouldn't it be just easier for IRCC to say they won't allow anyone outside Canada from taking the test? You need to think through all this rationally.

Some of the people whose entire mission appears to be discouraging people from working outside are the same people - in their own words - have said it was financially very rewarding when they themselves worked for a US employer.

Racial supremacists like Stephen Harper had an idea that immigrants are kind of people you hire for doing labor. And he wants to make sure they stay and do the work he specifically hired them for. Effectively he was creating two types of Canadian citizenship: Canadians born in Canada will have no restrcitions on movement whereas if you are a naturalized citizen you're bound to not move anywhere else. When Justin Trudeau became the Prime Minister his government and the Parliament explicity repealed those provisions.

Like people that train their dog to stay within electric fences - and eventually even after removing it, the dog is afraid to cross the imagianry fence - Harper had placed enough uncertainies in his plan and the entire idea was to create fear and uncertainty.

His footsoldiers who are comfortable only to live his world are still holding on to it. Some of them are here and a small number of them appear to be in IRCC as well, as it is unavoidable.

You can find them all over the place - including in the US immigration forums. You can find them in the comment sections of the YouTube videos discussing immigration/immigrants. But do you want to believe all of them and shrink your life?

Information and rationally assessing the information is the key. If you keep asking things like "is this how they treat people" etc they're going to keep feeding their nonsense. Instead I'd say watch the forum for yourself and develop an idea first.

You can easily keep tabs on discussions like this using the 'watch' button or using the search functionality on this website.

Here are other related discussions (thare are also links inside this post):
https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/cit-0520-after-interview.779754/post-10247379

(For the record, as much as I disagree with @Dreamlad his post comes from a genuine experience and I believe he says what he meant and out of a very unpleasant experience with IRCC.)

There are others who I have no doubt are acting with bad intentions irrespective of how many times they deny that. It's up to you. But if you want to be a decider of your own life you just need to parse information for yourself and decide.
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,183
VIP armoured : you hinting that they will withdrew the Canadian citizenship from the ones who work in USA? is this what makes things reasonable to you?
Under current law, citizenship can only be revoked, or "withdrawn," for misrepresentation. (For a short period, some Harper-era provisions expanded the grounds for revoking citizenship to include certain crimes; but those applied to citizens born in Canada as well as naturalized citizens. Trudeau government promptly repealed those provisions.)

PRs are subject to a Residency Obligation, and if they apply for citizenship must remain eligible (including continuing to have valid PR status) right up to the moment of taking the oath. While those applicants who have been approved for a grant of citizenship become citizenship "candidates" rather than "applicants," they nonetheless remain a PR, subject to all the rules and obligations of PR status, with none of the rights or privileges specific to those who are citizens (such as Charter mobility rights), again right up to the moment of taking the oath.

For a citizenship applicant who relocates abroad pending the processing of the citizenship application, the logistical and procedural risks all applicants face are somewhat elevated. This has been discussed at length and in-depth in numerous topics here, with more than a little controversy, albeit the vitriolic element tends to be rooted in views dominated by their view of the-way-things-should-work rather than how things actually work in practice.

The extent to which the risks are increased for the applicant abroad is largely individual, depending on many factors specific to the individual, including the individual's history and circumstances.

There are no indications of systemic illegal or inappropriate discrimination against applicants who have left Canada after applying. Like any human institution, and more specifically like bureaucracies generally, there will always be some instances of inappropriate discrimination. But there is little or no indication there is much of that aimed at applicants who have gone abroad.
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,282
8,889
Just in the interest of your own sake, I would say not to worry about these things since you have a lot of time on you hands. There's no point stretching hypothetical scenarios.

It's an open forum and you don't know what others motivations are.
Please, I'd like to emphasize to be clear: I was not advocating any particular policy position, nor - especially - advocating any measure to revoke citizenship. It's pure fantasy and paranoia.

I was outlining, primarily, that in my view, the talk about such prioritization - if indeed it is happening, which I do not know - is almost certainly not charter-type discrimination. Repeat, in my opinion.

There are certainly some anti-immigration views out there. But not all opinions about where and in what circumstances citizenship should be granted is anti-immigration or anti-immigrant.
 

trumprefugee

Champion Member
Jun 6, 2017
1,616
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Ottawa, ON
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Mr. Trump, the champion: Do you mean that ICRCC rules and books are not used when they treat PRs ... I understand that Canadians apply the highest human rights principals... and millions of PRs are in and outside......

You say that PRs dont have their PR rights and there is a hidden treatment? am confused
I was writing in response to your post "Do you mean they have two treatments one for Canadian inside & outside":

Addressing the "Canadian" part, I was trying to clarify that citizenship applicants are not yet Canadians; citizens are Canadians, while PRs are not.

PRs have a different set of rights, similar to those of citizens but with important differences, the most relevant one in this discussion regarding the freedom to stay outside Canada as long as we want. Citizens have that right, but PRs do not, first by virtue of the residency obligation (RO).

When applying for citizenship, PRs do have the right to stay outside Canada for as long as they want, as long as they maintain the RO. IRCC cannot refuse a citizenship application solely on the grounds of the PR being outside Canada. That is the law. However, there is no rule that IRCC must process citizenship applications within a certain timeframe, so agents are allowed to prioritize the applications of those inside Canada (i.e., delay those of applicants outside). And based on my observations in this forum and in a few other groups I am in, that is the trend, for IRCC to delay the applications of those who have been outside for longer than a short trip.

As for a hidden treatment, that is possible. If you look at the history of citizenship rules, in the not so distant past, when the rule was needing physical presence in 4 out of the last 6 years, intent to reside in Canada after receiving citizenship was also a requirement in order to get citizenship. This changed, so that the requirement of intent is no longer there. However, this does not prevent certain IRCC agents, or members of the Canadian public, from being biased against immigrants who do not appear committed to staying in Canada long term. As noted before, the current law forbids IRCC from rejecting an application based on an applicant being outside for extended periods of time, but it does not forbid delays.

Again, just my observations based on the experiences of a number of people in this forum, as well as in a couple other groups I am in. I'm not saying this is how it should be, only making observations. It is on you to make your decision on whether to stay or leave, and for how long, based on your personal circumstances and the risks that staying outside for a long time might entail.
 

A_S

Star Member
Apr 29, 2014
123
54
Dear Experts,

This forum is one of the best ever with great inputs!! I need your views on this case

- Living in Canada since Oct 2017
- PR Expires on 01 October 2025
- We have two mortgages one for our house (20 years ending 2040) and one for car.

- Citizenship to be submitted on 10 Sept 2023 (1110 days)

- After submitting citizenship application we want to travel outside so the kids live with their both parents for a year. Intended travel date is 30 Sept 2023 (two weeks after submitting our citizenship application).

On the ceremony, We have no issues returning back to Canada to do it as soon as we are notified.

Reason for travel outside is spouse on a 25 years old job and retiring in Dec 2026: thus, we need to stay together until he completes his retirement and return to Canada.

Please expert give your advice on Two questions:

- Is there a risk on our application in terms of the citizenship test (do i have to return to do it inside Canada), if yes when its expected after the application?

- Does a 13 Years old child have to be physically inside to do the test?

Any errors or mistakes to watch for when submitting the citizenship applications
Once you apply for your citizenship next fall no one can stop you from moving to USA , however when you get a test invite/interview or Oath make sure to come back to Canadian soil and you should be good. Majority of the applicants who have taken their test outside Canada report delays or interviews. The citizenship test was never designed to be taken from outside Canada, but due to Covid-19 & countrywide travel restrictions officers started allowing applicants to take the online test from outside but then it started getting to be a norm. On top of this imagine those applicants who took tests outside requesting for interviews & Oath from outside the country. An Oath is meant to be on Canadian soil and IRCC had no choice but to ask them for evidence of return. Now to the point on delays, think of IRCC as a factory where every step has its own queue & processing time especially when they have huge backlogs. If there is some problem(followup/documents/irregularity) it will go back to the end of that queue again.

Even before Covid IRCC had the option to communicate via email and make sure to use someone's address who is trustworthy, worst case IRCC communicates through mail you are notified. You already know the rules and all the hassles which come with it, try to break them in an organized manner and you will see the path. Make sure that you are in compliance with residency days while out and do what you need to do after applying for citizenship. Again I reiterate, please search on the top of the bar and go over different situations so that you don't have to rely on any expert's advice. Every minor detail on Citizenship is available on this forum so spend time and dig out old cases.

Hopefully this is what you want to hear and good luck ! Cheers !
 

montrealworker

Star Member
Sep 25, 2022
105
5
Please, I'd like to emphasize to be clear: I was not advocating any particular policy position, nor - especially - advocating any measure to revoke citizenship. It's pure fantasy and paranoia.

I was outlining, primarily, that in my view, the talk about such prioritization - if indeed it is happening, which I do not know - is almost certainly not charter-type discrimination. Repeat, in my opinion.

There are certainly some anti-immigration views out there. But not all opinions about where and in what circumstances citizenship should be granted is anti-immigration or anti-immigrant.
[B]armoured[/B] is on a mission to spread fair and terrorizes us that a PR or Canadian Citizen leaving Canada to work and generate income to pay for our houses inside canada and families will be kicked out even when they meet their residency obligation: what kind of mentality does aromoured has.

Mr. Armoured needs to wake up and join his extremists campus outside our beloved canada.... as canadians are the most understanding and compassionate people....