+1(514) 937-9445 or Toll-free (Canada & US) +1 (888) 947-9445

Travel History

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,280
8,889
On the other hand, the information technology connecting embedded biometric information in many passports (although no where near all countries' passports) is continually expanding, along with complex information-sharing protocols
...
Let's just say, for someone traveling to China say, probably best to assume the officials there know their travel history in China regardless what travel document they are using. Context matters.
Since many probably do not know, the only 'biometric' information contained in the Canadian biometric passport is an electronic version of the passport photograph. (The standard supports eye/iris information and fingerprint data, but not implemented in Canada, and I don't know about other countries).

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-passports/help-centre/e-passport.html

So in one sense: any host country could get a version of the same data by just scanning (optically) the picture part of the passport. (Yes, it would be a less-clean version with errors introduced by age of passport, physical condition, directiopn, etc).

And on those same lines: in the most simplistic sense it's just another security feature (photos in electronic and physical form must match, and hacking that chip harder).

But with facial recognition software, tying all this information together between databases and comparing against other available info provides a lot more potential information (if and when it works, of course).

Again, since the photo is already on the passport and can be captured, it's not the chip that does it. It makes it a wee bit easier (for a competent state anyway).

But one can safely assume that anyone who has visited certain countries and presented their biometric passport to a well-equipped border officer is well represented and populated in their facial recognition databases.
 

i6evx5e8

Star Member
Jan 20, 2022
167
74
Thanks everyone who have shared that thoughts. It was nice to know different take aways and different points of views.

I am not overthinking. I don't need to. Nor does anyone else.

I am not sure why everyone got the idea (or assumed) that I do not want Border officials to know the travel history. On the contrary, I want them to know my travel history. And I believe every legitimate traveller should want that. That makes life so easy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GuyanaGirl

i6evx5e8

Star Member
Jan 20, 2022
167
74
I suspect you are overthinking things in regards to border control screening of a Canadian citizen seeking entry into countries like the U.S. or the UK . . . I do not know much about UK policies or practices, but for entry into the U.S., those authorities will generally have immediate access to sufficient history of an individual's travel into the U.S., and associated status, that fact alone will be a dominate factor . . . recognizing that absent a history of travel into the U.S., otherwise, yeah, or so it seems anyway, the U.S. tends to discriminate if an individual was or continues to be a citizen of certain countries, despite their becoming a Canadian citizen and presenting a Canadian passport (and despite some redacted information on the face of the passport). But it is not as if the details in travel history into the U.S. will matter as much as the fact of there being a travel history and any negative events or decisions related to the individual. Which information will not necessarily be but nonetheless nearly always will be connected to the individual regardless what travel document, from whatever country, the traveler uses.

Distinguishing border control screening for countries like China . . . a rather different tale.

Beyond that . . . perhaps a Meanwhile III . . . it is worth noting and emphasizing the difference between what personal information that border, immigration, and other law enforcement officials CAN access versus what is routinely seen or screened. This is of course connected to and dependent on what personal information is captured, by which government body, since access to information depends on that information having been captured (historically a lot of individual travel history was minimally captured, and going back a little further, much of it only captured in passport stamps), and maintained. If the information was not captured, or not maintained, there is of course no access to that information.

But even in terms of captured and maintained information, there are variable portals of access. Some of the portals or access-paths are restricted. Which here too there is great variability from country-to-country. Indeed, there is so much variation it hardly makes any sense to wrestle with this subject outside the context of a particular country. Note, for example, this can be incredibly complex, since there are numerous countries like Canada which have highly structured information-access regulation within the government, related to measures to protect privacy, but also which have implemented information capturing and storage that is truly profoundly extensive and intensive, deeply intrusive . . . that is, while Canada has extensive regulatory rules limiting access to personal information (even within a single agency), Canada also has captured and keeps vast amounts of detailed individual information.

Which leads back to the observation about the difference between what CAN be accessed and what, in a particular situation or transaction, is typically accessed. Applications for some kinds of visas, for example, will trigger more extensive screening of database information than, say, a PoE examination attendant application to enter the country as a visitor.

(Note: I am disregarding the more extreme paranoia perspectives which apprehend "the government" captures everything, knows everything, and uses it all; noted with the caveat that it is utterly amazing how much more personal information is captured and maintained these days, and not only accessible but actually accessed, compared to when I was much younger, even back when I was middle-aged. Further noting that it appears private and corporate entities may be capturing a lot more personal information than governments, and it appears that trend is accelerating. Smile, your every detail is being electronically culled. And this information will be sold to just about any bidder, not just the highest.)

In Canada much access to personal information in the government's numerous silos of data, including databases in databases, is tiered depending on a kind of need-to-know or triage scheme. For example, not just any IRCC agent or officer can go into their computer and pull up an individual client's CBSA travel history. Some of the structured access is tied to discretionary decision-making, individual officials having the authority to probe a level deeper if they decide there is a reason or cause without requiring authority or permission from another official, and often without this decision being subject to any review (they still need to have a reason, just that no one else is generally monitoring their decision-making). Some access, in contrast, requires overt permission from a supervising official. Some types of access require permission from the individual UNLESS there is an overriding investigatory cause. This is just a highly generalized, rather superficial outline, referring to an intricately complicated matrix of access-controls interfaced with the highly complex matrix of information-capturing methods . . . much of which is behind the curtain behind closed doors, more or less strictly confidential, especially when there is any investigatory purpose implicated.

So here too CONTEXT looms large. Going back to the example of an IRCC official accessing an individual's CBSA travel history. A particular official may have the authority to access clients' CBSA travel history generally, but still not be authorized to access it EXCEPT in certain circumstances. That is, it would be highly unusual for any IRCC official to have authority to randomly or arbitrarily access a client's CBSA travel history. Typically there must be a legitimate reason, and depending on the reason there may be further limitations on if and when access is authorized. Again, some access will require the individual's permission, but if and when there is a particular investigatory cause or need, the individual's permission is not required. CBSA officers, particularly those screening the traveler at a PoE, have broader, less restrictive access to a client's travel history information, but even they do not have unfettered access (allowing that just like law enforcement generally, more than a little unauthorized probing for family or friend likely goes on, unfortunately).

Nonetheless, in the context of your query, all that seems well beyond the overthinking things horizon.
Well written. Thanks!!!
Don't worry, I am not overthinking. Thanks for your concern. I am, to be honest, curious. That's all about it.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,183
Since many probably do not know, the only 'biometric' information contained in the Canadian biometric passport is an electronic version of the passport photograph. (The standard supports eye/iris information and fingerprint data, but not implemented in Canada, and I don't know about other countries).

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-passports/help-centre/e-passport.html

So in one sense: any host country could get a version of the same data by just scanning (optically) the picture part of the passport. (Yes, it would be a less-clean version with errors introduced by age of passport, physical condition, directiopn, etc).

And on those same lines: in the most simplistic sense it's just another security feature (photos in electronic and physical form must match, and hacking that chip harder).

But with facial recognition software, tying all this information together between databases and comparing against other available info provides a lot more potential information (if and when it works, of course).

Again, since the photo is already on the passport and can be captured, it's not the chip that does it. It makes it a wee bit easier (for a competent state anyway).

But one can safely assume that anyone who has visited certain countries and presented their biometric passport to a well-equipped border officer is well represented and populated in their facial recognition databases.
Actually most passports (including Canadian passports) with chips also include in the chip the individual bio information (name, date of birth, and typically but not in all, the individual's place of birth), in regards to which some may shrug since it is the same information on the face of the bio page, but since it is in an electronically readable format it is readily captured and cross-referenced by scanning devices, facilitating the more important aspect, that is the information technology connecting the embedded biometric information in and across databases. It has been a few years since I did some research into the numerous silos of information, the PIBs (personal information banks) and their respective multi-layered and cross-connected databases, just in connection to information captured and maintained by IRCC and CBSA, but it is a bit staggering and daunting how many separate databases or PIBs get populated with information based on a single event/transaction.

That reflects both the information capture and cross-checking capability (this largely done programmatically) for just everyday purposes, without even getting into who, when, and why the information can be accessed by this or that official.

I have not delved into the more sophisticated aspects of what is or can be captured and stored in passport chips, relative to more intensive scrutiny typically regarding criminal or security related law enforcement activity which can utilize facial recognition technology (or for some passports, fingerprints or even eye scans). But even since I became a senior (boggles the mind how quickly the decades slide into history), never mind going back before the turn of the century when I was a middle-aged traveler, the expansion in interconnectivity of captured personal information has been staggering, right out of a Philip K. Dick novel.

In contrast, historically (going back to the 1950s, and yeah that tells an aging tale), before 9/11/2001 I entered Canada from the U.S. many dozens, if not hundreds of times without so much as saying my name let alone showing any identification at all (and on those rare occasions when I was asked to show identification, that was usually going into the U.S., and a drivers' license was sufficient). Back in the day there were occasions we crossed the border between Quebec and Vermont, in the U.S., without passing through a PoE in either direction, just to go to the library for example. Times change.


I am not overthinking. I don't need to. Nor does anyone else.
My comment in regards to overthinking is in reference to what information has practical importance . . . detailed travel history is simply not on the radar for the vast majority of cross-border or international travel purposes. To the extent it is relevant, that is typically limited to residency or presence related requirements, and at least in Canada that is only in regards to immigration purposes with at most isolated if not rare other law enforcement activities (OHIP, for example, will not have access to a person's CBSA travel history to assess whether the individual has meet the 153 days presence in Ontario requirement).

Fact of some travel history, connected more significantly to the individual's immigration status history in a particular country, can be a big factor, but the details in the travel history generally are not considered much if at all.
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,280
8,889
Since many probably do not know, the only 'biometric' information contained in the Canadian biometric passport is an electronic version of the passport photograph. (The standard supports eye/iris information and fingerprint data, but not implemented in Canada, and I don't know about other countries).
Actually most passports (including Canadian passports) with chips also include in the chip the individual bio information (name, date of birth, and typically but not in all, the individual's place of birth), in regards to which some may shrug since it is the same information on the face of the bio page, but since it is in an electronically readable format it is readily captured and cross-referenced by scanning devices, facilitating the more important aspect, that is the information technology connecting the embedded biometric information in and across databases.
Note my comment was about 'biometric' information, not the boilerplate biographic info included in all passports (but we may be using somewhat different definitions of biometric). Which I think would be captured by the difference between 'physical characteristics expressed in digital form' (e.g. digital images, fingerprint data, iris scans, etc) and biographic/descriptors like date of birth, name, citizenship, etc. (This biographic info is 'digital' in some sense but at root is just formatted text fields, and does not require complex algorithms like compression to interpret like a digital image)

And on that point: the newer 'chipped' passports (which I think are required to carry the biometric symbol) make the provision/capture of the biographic data quite a bit quicker and more accurate - but remember, we had 'machine readable passports' before, and they were and are very quick and accurate at passing all of the biographic data without any biometric data being required.

My point being 'the more important aspect' you identify (databases/IT connecting the various biographic / identification information) does not outright require biometrics - it was happening before anyway without biometrics.

I'm sure there's a discussion to be had about how much the one technology drives the other and where one begins and the other ends - like whether ai and biometrics and facial recognition tech are all tied up together - and I wont' dispute that. Or that just everything getting cheap and ubiquitous changes the situation dramatically.

But we had the primary tools for most of the fucntions like established travel histories as described above without 'biometrics' per se.

Machine readable passports and databases were already close to the killer app.
 
  • Like
Reactions: i6evx5e8

GuyanaGirl

Hero Member
Jul 4, 2016
751
313
Visa Office......
Kitchener
App. Filed.......
July, 20th 2016
Med's Request
Upfront
The way I look at it is, you are still “you” …just your nationality has changed so things will remain intact unless you go into hiding with the FBI / retire from the Men in Black and come out as a whole new person. :)

anyhow, it was pretty nice to have a question a bit different from the usual in here.
 
  • Like
Reactions: i6evx5e8