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When would an agent know if your application is being reffered to CJ?

Lily2011

Full Member
May 6, 2014
47
3
I am trying to stay calm and wait, but I can't. So one last question regarding the CJ:

The agent I spoke to a few weeks ago told me there is nothing that shows that my file is being referred to a CJ. She said once the clearances are done, the next step should be the oath (if nothing is added/changed).

My question is: for those who got referred to a CJ (or anyone with information): when would the agent know or see it in your file? at what point would your ATIP report show the referral?

Thanks
 

canmozu

Star Member
Jan 11, 2016
84
6
Even if they know they do not give this information on phone. This information is notified by a letter.
 

Lily2011

Full Member
May 6, 2014
47
3
canmozu said:
Even if they know they do not give this information on phone. This information is notified by a letter.
But in that case wouldn't the agent say "I cannot tell you/look into that info" instead of stating "there is nothing in your file or officers' notes that indicates a cj hearing"?

I'm just wondering...
 

Exports

Star Member
Aug 10, 2015
124
7
Lily2011 said:
But in that case wouldn't the agent say "I cannot tell you/look into that info" instead of stating "there is nothing in your file or officers' notes that indicates a cj hearing"?

I'm just wondering...
In my case it was noted in the NOTES OF ATIP. Hope that may help!
I think u mentioned in previous post of urs that you Hv less days ( sorry if I am wrong ) and also under new rule didn't qualify- the best option will be to wait as u r not losing anything! Avg processing time for CJ hearing is quite long from the time of test due to RQ.
I am not sure CJ hears only cases of non routine for citizenship applications or also for elder people with no English or any other things due to which this huge case of backlog and queue for CJ hearing.
 

Lily2011

Full Member
May 6, 2014
47
3
Exports said:
In my case it was noted in the NOTES OF ATIP. Hope that may help!
I think u mentioned in previous post of urs that you Hv less days ( sorry if I am wrong ) and also under new rule didn't qualify- the best option will be to wait as u r not losing anything! Avg processing time for CJ hearing is quite long from the time of test due to RQ.
I am not sure CJ hears only cases of non routine for citizenship applications or also for elder people with no English or any other things due to which this huge case of backlog and queue for CJ hearing.
That is very helpful! thanks!
If you don't mind, how early on was that note entered? was it at the very end (more currant date) or towards the middle/beginning (old date)?

I requested an ATIP report back in 2014 and there was no mention of a hearing. I requested another one again last week and should be here in a month or two.

I am planning to wait.. but now that the end is so near I'm lacking patience. They have been "processing documents" for years and now things just started to move forward last Jan 2016.
I just want to try to anticipate what will happen.
 

Canadiandesi2006

Champion Member
Mar 6, 2014
1,126
41
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Lily2011 said:
I am trying to stay calm and wait, but I can't. So one last question regarding the CJ:

The agent I spoke to a few weeks ago told me there is nothing that shows that my file is being referred to a CJ. She said once the clearances are done, the next step should be the oath (if nothing is added/changed).

My question is: for those who got referred to a CJ (or anyone with information): when would the agent know or see it in your file? at what point would your ATIP report show the referral?

Thanks
Why are you concerned if your case might be assigned to Citizenship Judge ? Have you applied with days short than minimum required or had excessive overseas trips or land crossing to USA. If none of these factors, there is nothing to worry at all.

Then comes questions, such as did you apply under old or new rules, date you applied, CIC location, did you pass the citizenship test.

As suggested by other reader "Export", obtain ATIP report periodically and watch in the notes section if any such remark are mentioned.

Some of the CIC locations are painfully slow in processing due to work load for even regular application. If you were eligible, just relax. ;D
 

Lily2011

Full Member
May 6, 2014
47
3
Canadiandesi2006 said:
Why are you concerned if your case might be assigned to Citizenship Judge ? Have you applied with days short than minimum required or had excessive overseas trips or land crossing to USA. If none of these factors, there is nothing to worry at all.

Then comes questions, such as did you apply under old or new rules, date you applied, CIC location, did you pass the citizenship test.

As suggested by other reader "Export", obtain ATIP report periodically and watch in the notes section if any such remark are mentioned.

Some of the CIC locations are painfully slow in processing due to work load for even regular application. If you were eligible, just relax. ;D
I know I should relax, but easier said than done.

We did apply with less than the required days though. So we were told by Call Center agents (not by officers) that we might get referred due to the lack of days. I am two months short and self declared. My Spouse applied the day after he had the 1095 but CIC re-calculated his days and now he is a month short.

I had an ATIP report in 2014 and it did not have any notes regarding a CJ. Requested another last week and waiting for the new one to arrive.

My time line:
Applied Feb 2011 to Calgary office (under old law, obviously)
RQ Nov 2011
Test Jan 2015 (file transferred to London, ON)
2nd RQ April 2015
Called in Feb 2016 and Agent said last note entered was about waiting for the last clearance (meaning that they finally are done with verifying documents). It was entered one month ago (Jan 2016?). No note regarding CJ yet.

I saw applicants here with similar days who went straight to oath without CJ. But also there are ones who got referred to CJ and got refused. I'm hoping we go straight to oath. We went through alot and were dragged long enough. Sigh.
 

dabas

Star Member
Jan 27, 2016
95
2
What is the scope and timeframe for verifying RQ documents, does CIC go back and verify entry exit recorsd which we submit from other countries with the respective governments for instance? do they call the banks to check statements? do they call landlords to check agreements?
 

Almost_Canadian

Star Member
Dec 2, 2015
133
17
@dabas in our case, they asked us in RQ to get a letter from bank to confirm our accounts. Our bank manager ( CIBC) asked us to send a copy of the RQ to them and they issued us this letter. I sent bank manager's confirmation along with bank statements.
Similarly for landlord, I could get landlord to provide a confirmation letter ( original to be sent to CIC) and then an affidavit from persons who knew us to confirm that we had stayed at those residences. We submitted all originals to CIC.
As for entry/exit , I think nowadays they confirm Canadian side with their internal systems. For foreign ones, if the passport stamps match the canadian entry/exits , then that would probably show that the travels informed to them are accurate. If you have travelled to USA, they have internal systems to share data with US side.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,183
Lily2011 said:
I know I should relax, but easier said than done.

We did apply with less than the required days though. So we were told by Call Center agents (not by officers) that we might get referred due to the lack of days. I am two months short and self declared. My Spouse applied the day after he had the 1095 but CIC re-calculated his days and now he is a month short.
Yes, easier said than done. But there really is nothing else to do at this stage but wait and see what happens next.

Shortfall cases are simply not predictable. This was a huge problem with the old residency requirement law. There are many factors the applicant can examine and get a rough, very rough idea of how bad or not so bad the odds are. A month's worth of discrepancies, for example, hurts. The bigger the shortfall the more that hurts. The more thoroughly the applicants' lives are shown to have been centralized in Canada, the more that helps. But ultimately there are too many factors which can have varying degrees of influence on the decision-maker, the Citizenship Officer, who decides whether IRCC is satisfied the residency requirement was met, to forecast how that is likely to go. If the Citizenship Officer is not satisfied, that is when a File Preparation Analysis Template referral will be prepared for a Citizenship Judge to review, and then a CJ hearing scheduled.

Some CJs appear to only apply a strict physical presence test. If that is the test used, a shortfall application fails, necessarily fails.

Some CJs appear to automatically consider applying a qualitative test, like the Koo criteria, in which case the shortfall applicant who has definitely established the date the applicant actually established a household in Canada, and that was more than three years prior to applying, and otherwise has well-documented a life centralized in Canada, has a decent chance of being approved for the grant of citizenship.

Otherwise, perhaps some CJs need to be encouraged, at the hearing, to consider a qualitative test, and again a strong qualitative case might have decent odds of success.


Notice of Referral to CJ:

Bottomline: there is nothing to do but watch eCas and your mail, looking for notice of either being scheduled for oath, or being scheduled for a CJ hearing.

It is somewhat possible that there will be a clue in your GCMS records that the case is being referred to a CJ before you get actual notice it will be, but even then it is unlikely a call centre agent will divulge the information, and perhaps it will not be so clear as to what it is that a call centre agent will even recognize what it means (let alone communicate that to you). But the time line for this is probably a very narrow window in time. It would be total chance that you happen to talk to a call centre agent just before the notice (one way or the other) is sent. The way these things work is that the file is sitting in queue, nothing happening until its turn. Then what is going to happen actually happens. The Citizenship Officer decides to approve and grant citizenship, and the notice for the oath goes out; or the Citizenship Officer prepares the FPAT referral and a CJ hearing is scheduled, and the notice for that goes out.

Thus, for example, responses to some ATIP requests just happen to reveal something before the notice goes out, but the notice is going out real soon anyway. Not worth repeated ATIP requests. Frequent calls to the call centre or repeated ATIP applications will tend to elevate anticipation and anxiety, and are very unlikely to give you advance notice, and almost certainly will not give you any information you can actually use.

So, as difficult as it is to wait and watch, that really is all you can do for now.
 

dabas

Star Member
Jan 27, 2016
95
2
Almost_Canadian said:
@dabas in our case, they asked us in RQ to get a letter from bank to confirm our accounts. Our bank manager ( CIBC) asked us to send a copy of the RQ to them and they issued us this letter. I sent bank manager's confirmation along with bank statements.
Similarly for landlord, I could get landlord to provide a confirmation letter ( original to be sent to CIC) and then an affidavit from persons who knew us to confirm that we had stayed at those residences. We submitted all originals to CIC.
As for entry/exit , I think nowadays they confirm Canadian side with their internal systems. For foreign ones, if the passport stamps match the canadian entry/exits , then that would probably show that the travels informed to them are accurate. If you have travelled to USA, they have internal systems to share data with US side.
Almost Canadian,

CIC asked you to submit bank manager letter. Have you voulanteered the letter from landlord and other affidavits? What was the outcome if known?
 

Almost_Canadian

Star Member
Dec 2, 2015
133
17
@dabas. They asked for copies of statements of all bank accounts, rental agreements , credit card statements, utility bills, cell phone bills. Their letter also said that in case we could not provide rental agreements, then an original letter from the owner of the place where we were staying and an affidavit from a person who could confirm our stay.
We arranged the bank letter from CIBC and requested our landlord to provide an original letter confirming our stay with detailed dates. This was because we were not paying any utility charges so I thought it's better to have an extra confirmation from landlord along with rent agreements. Then we asked a friend to make the affidavit confirming our stay, again with detailed dates.
The outcome was positive. We got Decision Made in November last year and we became citizens last month. The whole process took 2 years and 7 months.
 

dabas

Star Member
Jan 27, 2016
95
2
@Almost-Canadian (Already-Canadian)

Congratulations,

So CIC ask for all statements of bank accounts and I cannot pick and choose if I do not want to disclose some transactions or some statements?

For phone bills, do I need to submit calls or itemised bills as well or just the front two page of bills of my cell?
 

Almost_Canadian

Star Member
Dec 2, 2015
133
17
@dabas
Yes I tried to change my profile name to A_Canadian but it's not possible. So I have to stick with Almost_Canadian :D

They asked for statements of bank accounts, ( not specific to all bank accounts) . We sent monthly statements of all accounts including RRSP contributions, TFSA accounts etc. We thought that the more detailed the information, the better is possibility for officer reviewing our file to make a decision.

For cell phone bills, we just sent first 2 pages of each month.

Many people on the forum have mentioned regarding RQs - both the detailed one CIT0171 and the shorter one CIT0520. My wife got 0171 first and when we replied that one, 4 months later she got the 0520. We then got letter for test and after another 6 months I got 0520 . For 0520 , we were asked to send color photocopy of every page of every passport in use for last 4 years of our application. Finally after all that we got DM and oath.
It's a tiring and troublesome process to fill out the RQs and send back. But once all information is correctly sent and the officer can review it and cross check then I think the process keeps moving.

Hope this info helps you. All the best and regards.