When is a removal order issued?

[hungtington]

Hi friends, I have come up with a strange question regarding removal orders. (It hasn't happened to me, nor do I know anyone in this situation, but given the unpredictable behavior of IRCC, I fear that eventually, this situation may come up somehow.)

I have read that when a PR tries to enter Canada, he/she cannot be stopped from doing so, but an officer at the border may check RO. And if the officer thinks RO is not met, a report will be sent to the minister. If the minister agrees with the report, a removal order will be issued. So it seems that the removal order is not immediately issued at the border. Is that indeed the case? Is there a gap between the report and the removal order? How long is that gap?

The reason that I am asking is:

I read that if a PR is under a removal order, he/she cannot become a citizen. Now imagine this situation: a PR submits a citizenship application with the hope that it can be processed in a year. He/she then leaves Canada, and unluckily, IRCC delayed the application for years (which is not impossible). By the time of Decision Made, this person still meets RO, but by the time he/she receives oath invite, another, say, 5 years passed...

This person hasn't traveled back to Canada in these 5 years, so no one checked RO, and PR is not lost. Now right before the oath date, this person tries to enter Canada in a private vehicle for the oath. If the removal order is immediate, this plan would not work, because the order comes before oath for sure; but if it is not, then he/she can enter Canada, become a citizen, and when the minister sees and approves the report, theoretically no removal order can be issued since he/she is already a citizen.

I know this sounds very bizarre and looks like a way to sneak past the regulation, but if an action is not prohibited, then one should not get legally penalized for it.

 

[jakklondon]

Hi friends, I have come up with a strange question regarding removal orders. (It hasn't happened to me, nor do I know anyone in this situation, but given the unpredictable behavior of IRCC, I fear that eventually, this situation may come up somehow.)

I have read that when a PR tries to enter Canada, he/she cannot be stopped from doing so, but an officer at the border may check RO. And if the officer thinks RO is not met, a report will be sent to the minister. If the minister agrees with the report, a removal order will be issued. So it seems that the removal order is not immediately issued at the border. Is that indeed the case? Is there a gap between the report and the removal order? How long is that gap?

The reason that I am asking is:

I read that if a PR is under a removal order, he/she cannot become a citizen. Now imagine this situation: a PR submits a citizenship application with the hope that it can be processed in a year. He/she then leaves Canada, and unluckily, IRCC delayed the application for years (which is not impossible). By the time of Decision Made, this person still meets RO, but by the time he/she receives oath invite, another, say, 5 years passed...

This person hasn't traveled back to Canada in these 5 years, so no one checked RO, and PR is not lost. Now right before the oath date, this person tries to enter Canada in a private vehicle for the oath. If the removal order is immediate, this plan would not work, because the order comes before oath for sure; but if it is not, then he/she can enter Canada, become a citizen, and when the minister sees and approves the report, theoretically no removal order can be issued since he/she is already a citizen.

I know this sounds very bizarre and looks like a way to sneak past the regulation, but if an action is not prohibited, then one should not get legally penalized for it.

You can probably Google the correct answer, but from what I understand if you are in compliance with RO at the time when CIC receives your citizenship application, time out of Canada after that will not be counted against your RO. That's why, I have heard, a lot of people flee Canada as soon as they submit their citizenship application, and don't return until they are invited to take oath. And you can't blame them. Who wants to pick up trash and carry loads of brick on their back with PHD or engineering degree? Anyhow, check this out, I think once you submit your citizenship application you should be fine.

As to removal order, I don't think the order of removal for breach of RO can take place at POE, otherwise you would not be able to be admitted. I think once they issue the order of removal (or report you), you have 30 days to appeal it, and once you appeal it you can stay as long as your case is being decided. But check first if this can even apply you (or whoever is in similar situation), because once you submit your citizenship app you should be done with RO requirement.

 

[canuck78]

Hi friends, I have come up with a strange question regarding removal orders. (It hasn't happened to me, nor do I know anyone in this situation, but given the unpredictable behavior of IRCC, I fear that eventually, this situation may come up somehow.)

I have read that when a PR tries to enter Canada, he/she cannot be stopped from doing so, but an officer at the border may check RO. And if the officer thinks RO is not met, a report will be sent to the minister. If the minister agrees with the report, a removal order will be issued. So it seems that the removal order is not immediately issued at the border. Is that indeed the case? Is there a gap between the report and the removal order? How long is that gap?

The reason that I am asking is:

I read that if a PR is under a removal order, he/she cannot become a citizen. Now imagine this situation: a PR submits a citizenship application with the hope that it can be processed in a year. He/she then leaves Canada, and unluckily, IRCC delayed the application for years (which is not impossible). By the time of Decision Made, this person still meets RO, but by the time he/she receives oath invite, another, say, 5 years passed...

This person hasn't traveled back to Canada in these 5 years, so no one checked RO, and PR is not lost. Now right before the oath date, this person tries to enter Canada in a private vehicle for the oath. If the removal order is immediate, this plan would not work, because the order comes before oath for sure; but if it is not, then he/she can enter Canada, become a citizen, and when the minister sees and approves the report, theoretically no removal order can be issued since he/she is already a citizen.

I know this sounds very bizarre and looks like a way to sneak past the regulation, but if an action is not prohibited, then one should not get legally penalized for it.

You do realize that you need to be compliant with your RO as a PR to receive citizenship. It isn’t only about being reported when you try to reenter to take your oath. If you do get reported your citizenship application will be put on hold or you could lose your citizenship if you eventually lose your PR and it is determined that you didn’t meet your RO as a PR to qualify for citizenship.

 

[Buletruck]

You can probably Google the correct answer, but from what I understand if you are in compliance with RO at the time when CIC receives your citizenship application, time out of Canada after that will not be counted against your RO. That's why, I have heard, a lot of people flee Canada as soon as they submit their citizenship application, and don't return until they are invited to take oath. And you can't blame them. Who wants to pick up trash and carry loads of brick on their back with PHD or engineering degree? Anyhow, check this out, I think once you submit your citizenship application you should be fine.

As to removal order, I don't think the order of removal for breach of RO can take place at POE, otherwise you would not be able to be admitted. I think once they issue the order of removal (or report you), you have 30 days to appeal it, and once you appeal it you can stay as long as your case is being decided. But check first if this can even apply you (or whoever is in similar situation), because once you submit your citizenship app you should be done with RO requirement.

Wow, you’re bitter.

 

[jakklondon]

Wow, you’re bitter.

Truth is not honey.

 

[hungtington]

You do realize that you need to be compliant with your RO as a PR to receive citizenship. It isn’t only about being reported when you try to reenter to take your oath. If you do get reported your citizenship application will be put on hold or you could lose your citizenship if you eventually lose your PR and it is determined that you didn’t meet your RO as a PR to qualify for citizenship.

It is true that PR should not break RO. But it is also true that a PR who breaks RO does not lose PR status until examined by the officer and minister. The loss of PR occurs when the decision is actually made. A decision to revoke PR does not trace back and take effect in the past.

Becoming a citizen requires 1) PR status, 2) No removal order. And the person in the situation I described meets both when he/she becomes a citizen.

Citizenship can be revoked because of misrepresentation. But notice that the person made no attempt of misrepresentation since he/she honestly admits that RO is not met at the border. Therefore, the tricky part is that there is a short amount of time before losing PR and after the person enters Canada.

 

[hungtington]

You can probably Google the correct answer, but from what I understand if you are in compliance with RO at the time when CIC receives your citizenship application, time out of Canada after that will not be counted against your RO. That's why, I have heard, a lot of people flee Canada as soon as they submit their citizenship application, and don't return until they are invited to take oath. And you can't blame them. Who wants to pick up trash and carry loads of brick on their back with PHD or engineering degree? Anyhow, check this out, I think once you submit your citizenship application you should be fine.

As to removal order, I don't think the order of removal for breach of RO can take place at POE, otherwise you would not be able to be admitted. I think once they issue the order of removal (or report you), you have 30 days to appeal it, and once you appeal it you can stay as long as your case is being decided. But check first if this can even apply you (or whoever is in similar situation), because once you submit your citizenship app you should be done with RO requirement.

This is true: when processing citizenship applications they only look at the eligibility period. But maintaining PR is still rather tricky. IRCC is "committed" to processing applications in 12 months. If they do so, then this situation would never occur, since a person who has been in Canada for 3 years out of 5 when he/she submits application cannot be <2 out of 5 years in Canada after this 12 months. But IRCC rarely does what it is committed to do...

 

[canuck78]

It is true that PR should not break RO. But it is also true that a PR who breaks RO does not lose PR status until examined by the officer and minister. The loss of PR occurs when the decision is actually made. A decision to revoke PR does not trace back and take effect in the past.

Becoming a citizen requires 1) PR status, 2) No removal order. And the person in the situation I described meets both when he/she becomes a citizen.

Citizenship can be revoked because of misrepresentation. But notice that the person made no attempt of misrepresentation since he/she honestly admits that RO is not met at the border. Therefore, the tricky part is that there is a short amount of time before losing PR and after the person enters Canada.

https://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=911&top=5

You must maintain your RO as a PR to qualify for citizenship.

 

[GandiBaat]

Hi friends, I have come up with a strange question regarding removal orders. (It hasn't happened to me, nor do I know anyone in this situation, but given the unpredictable behavior of IRCC, I fear that eventually, this situation may come up somehow.)

I have read that when a PR tries to enter Canada, he/she cannot be stopped from doing so, but an officer at the border may check RO. And if the officer thinks RO is not met, a report will be sent to the minister. If the minister agrees with the report, a removal order will be issued. So it seems that the removal order is not immediately issued at the border. Is that indeed the case? Is there a gap between the report and the removal order? How long is that gap?

The reason that I am asking is:

I read that if a PR is under a removal order, he/she cannot become a citizen. Now imagine this situation: a PR submits a citizenship application with the hope that it can be processed in a year. He/she then leaves Canada, and unluckily, IRCC delayed the application for years (which is not impossible). By the time of Decision Made, this person still meets RO, but by the time he/she receives oath invite, another, say, 5 years passed...

This person hasn't traveled back to Canada in these 5 years, so no one checked RO, and PR is not lost. Now right before the oath date, this person tries to enter Canada in a private vehicle for the oath. If the removal order is immediate, this plan would not work, because the order comes before oath for sure; but if it is not, then he/she can enter Canada, become a citizen, and when the minister sees and approves the report, theoretically no removal order can be issued since he/she is already a citizen.

I know this sounds very bizarre and looks like a way to sneak past the regulation, but if an action is not prohibited, then one should not get legally penalized for it.

PS : I have very very incomplete knowledge of Canadian immigration and citizenship laws. I may be wrong and if this is your situation you will do well to consult an immigration lawyer!

Removal is a complex process. Removal in itself requires that you are given a chance to defend yourself. AFAIK, it is more of a removal hearing where the orders are issued. You can appeal against it, you can also challenge it in court of law under JR process. There are cases in which someone is detained at the border and removal order is given only to be challenged because proper procedure was not followed and later overturned.

What I do not know is how the removal process will interact with your citizenship process.

 

[jakklondon]

This is true: when processing citizenship applications they only look at the eligibility period. But maintaining PR is still rather tricky. IRCC is "committed" to processing applications in 12 months. If they do so, then this situation would never occur, since a person who has been in Canada for 3 years out of 5 when he/she submits application cannot be <2 out of 5 years in Canada after this 12 months. But IRCC rarely does what it is committed to do...

I don't know the answer to your question. I saw several threads and posts by PRs on this forum who said they left Canada after submitting citizenship application, and that if you are in compliance with RO at the time CIC receives your citizenship app, you are no longer subject to maintain your RO as other PRs are. may be they are right, may be they are wrong. I would verify it. But if what they say is correct, then I don't see how you can fall out of PR status for breach of RO. Yes, you can still be stripped of PR (if you plot terror attack or do some other crazy thing), but RO shouldn't be your concern anymore.

 

[hungtington]

https://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=911&top=5

You must maintain your RO as a PR to qualify for citizenship.

I wonder if that is a true necessary condition or only stated so that PR status remains. Therefore, I looked up the citizenship act. It says that the minister shall grant citizenship to someone who meets all other conditions and "is a permanent resident within the meaning of subsection 2(1) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, has, subject to the regulations, no unfulfilled conditions under that Act relating to his or her status as a permanent resident and has... "
So you are absolutely right if the "granting" action takes place at the oath. However, does it indeed take place at the oath? Or does it take place at Decision Made instead?

 

[hungtington]

Moreover, Canada can revoke citizenship and make a person stateless if there was a misrepresentation, but cannot do so if they did not do a final RO check right before the oath.

ok, I guess this is getting too complicated and hard to resolve without professional legal advice, which is overkill for something that hasn't really occurred.

It all started because of IRCC's failure to achieve the so-called "commitment"...

 

[jakklondon]

Moreover, Canada can revoke citizenship and make a person stateless if there was a misrepresentation, but cannot do so if they did not do a final RO check right before the oath.

ok, I guess this is getting too complicated and hard to resolve without professional legal advice, which is overkill for something that hasn't really occurred.

It all started because of IRCC's failure to achieve the so-called "commitment"...

It's not really complicated, one just needs to know the applicable statutes and case law. Without reading the relevant statute we can only guess or say what we think the law is (drawing conjectures from we we know), and we can err on both accounts.

I am sure there is controlling statute and regulations on this matter, and you don't have to pay and retain attorney to know the answer. You might be able to call for free consultation and get an answer over 15 minutes of conversation with an attorney, so you can get an answer and decide if you will need his or her services in future.

In the US you are not a Citizen until you take oath. If you "screw" after in person approval of your application and before you swear allegiance, you could be denied citizenship. And anything you did right before oath could be brought against you , and you could be tried as a permanent resident and placed as such in removal proceedings (for example, you could have squeaky clean records until your citizenship app was approved, but sometime before oath you decided to commit felony , DHS found out about it prior to your oath ceremony, cancelled your oath ceremony and revoked an earlier decision to approve your citizenship application and etc.).

I understand why you are ask this question and , indeed, if IRCC takes 5 or 10 years to decide citizenship application, who knows how many people would fall out of status for breach of RO or some other reasons. I don't know why IRCC does what it does (I suspect it's overwhelmed, understaffed, poorly equipped and what not), but if one was to imagine a motive behind extraordinary delays it would appear as if it was waiting for people to do something to fall out of status, so fewer people would get citizenship than qualified at the time when application was submitted.

 

[hungtington]

It's not really complicated, one just needs to know the applicable statutes and case law. Without reading the relevant statute we can only guess or say what we think the law is (drawing conjectures from we we know), and we can err on both accounts.

I am sure there is controlling statute and regulations on this matter, and you don't have to pay and retain attorney to know the answer. You might be able to call for free consultation and get an answer over 15 minutes of conversation with an attorney, so you can get an answer and decide if you will need his or her services in future.

In the US you are not a Citizen until you take oath. If you "screw" after in person approval of your application and before you swear allegiance, you could be denied citizenship. And anything you did right before oath could be brought against you , and you could be tried as a permanent resident and placed as such in removal proceedings (for example, you could have squeaky clean records until your citizenship app was approved, but sometime before oath you decided to commit felony , DHS found out about it prior to your oath ceremony, cancelled your oath ceremony and revoked an earlier decision to approve your citizenship application and etc.).

I understand why you are ask this question and , indeed, if IRCC takes 5 or 10 years to decide citizenship application, who knows how many people would fall out of status for breach of RO or some other reasons. I don't know why IRCC does what it does (I suspect it's overwhelmed, understaffed, poorly equipped and what not), but if one was to imagine a motive behind extraordinary delays it would appear as if it was waiting for people to do something to fall out of status, so fewer people would get citizenship than qualified at the time when application was submitted.

Thanks.

It is complicated because it is worth a lawsuit if it indeed happens.

I read both the Citizenship Act and the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act. I read about both granting/revoking citizenship. They, together, seems to imply the following.
1) Citizenship should not be granted to a PR who failed to meet RO at some point before granting (or oath, if that is when the granting occurs).
2) However, if it is already granted, it can only be revoked due to misrepresentation/fraud/...
3) If the applicant answered faithfully to all questions, he/she couldn't have committed those and therefore has a very strong argument against any attempt to revoke the citizenship.

So if IRCC fails to find out that an applicant stopped meeting RO because they did not make a final check after a "decision made" and before oath, it is not sufficient ground to revoke citizenship. However, if they, for some strange reason, suddenly decide to do such a final check before RO, then indeed the applicant risks getting denied.

 

[jakklondon]

Thanks.

It is complicated because it is worth a lawsuit if it indeed happens.

I read both the Citizenship Act and the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act. I read about both granting/revoking citizenship. They, together, seems to imply the following.
1) Citizenship should not be granted to a PR who failed to meet RO at some point before granting (or oath, if that is when the granting occurs).
2) However, if it is already granted, it can only be revoked due to misrepresentation/fraud/...
3) If the applicant answered faithfully to all questions, he/she couldn't have committed those and therefore has a very strong argument against any attempt to revoke the citizenship.

So if IRCC fails to find out that an applicant stopped meeting RO because they did not make a final check after a "decision made" and before oath, it is not sufficient ground to revoke citizenship. However, if they, for some strange reason, suddenly decide to do such a final check before RO, then indeed the applicant risks getting denied.

I found this article, and it claims that you must maintain your PR status right until the oath ceremony (not until "decision is made"). And it warns against leaving Canada prior to oath, if you risk breach of RO.

What you are asking, it seems, is what happens if IRCC holds oath ceremony and grants you citizenship while unaware (due to no fault of yours) that you are in breach of RO/lost your PR/are in removal proceedings. Could it then revoke its' own decision, which it made due to its' own error?

https://www.immigroup.com/topics/how-travel-while-my-canadian-citizenship-application-progress-three-steps/