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Visible minorities, pay heed - The grass is not green in Canada

viveksharma

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Flute,
Thanks for the candid post. I am sure this experience and research of yours would help the potential immigrants in taking the right decision.

However, I was just wondering given that you have such a vast experience and tons of technical certifications why are you still sticking in Canada. I don't think facing such rampant racism would do any good to anyone's self confidence. Why did you not think of going back to your home country and make life better. I think a candid answer here would again be helpful to the potential immigrants who would definitely like to know why - after all these hardships - people still chose to stay back.
 

evelyn24

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viveksharma said:
Flute,
Thanks for the candid post. I am sure this experience and research of yours would help the potential immigrants in taking the right decision.

However, I was just wondering given that you have such a vast experience and tons of technical certifications why are you still sticking in Canada. I don't think facing such rampant racism would do any good to anyone's self confidence. Why did you not think of going back to your home country and make life better. I think a candid answer here would again be helpful to the potential immigrants who would definitely like to know why - after all these hardships - people still chose to stay back.
good question, @ flute, answer this question
 

david1697

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It's beyond any doubt that "mental shortcuts" lead to false conclusions in way too many routine daily interactions.
The only reason I don't want to get into this debate is that OP pointed out "visible minority" as the subject of his discussion, whereas I believe the true cause is deeper/more complex and affects us all, regardless of our race, color or ethnic origin. A white, blond , professional woman wearing a mini skirt and by-passing a troubled or uber-conservative neighborhood can be as much a victim of a "quick assessment" as anyone else under some other set of circumstances.

Whether Flute goes back to where he came from or stays in Canada (or elsewhere), the issue of "mental shortcuts" won't go away.

But being conscious of mental processes going on inside our own heads and taking control of those processes (rather than being controlled by them) may help.
 

newtone

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viveksharma said:
Flute,
Thanks for the candid post. I am sure this experience and research of yours would help the potential immigrants in taking the right decision.

However, I was just wondering given that you have such a vast experience and tons of technical certifications why are you still sticking in Canada. I don't think facing such rampant racism would do any good to anyone's self confidence. Why did you not think of going back to your home country and make life better. I think a candid answer here would again be helpful to the potential immigrants who would definitely like to know why - after all these hardships - people still chose to stay back.

I cant speak for him but I imagine he has wasted enough time and money to not make it worth going back. Its like saying you have already spent $50,000 for education, you are in your fourth year, pissed off at the bureaucracy at University but cant quit you rather finish your degree
 

Flute

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viveksharma said:
Flute,
Thanks for the candid post. I am sure this experience and research of yours would help the potential immigrants in taking the right decision.

However, I was just wondering given that you have such a vast experience and tons of technical certifications why are you still sticking in Canada. I don't think facing such rampant racism would do any good to anyone's self confidence. Why did you not think of going back to your home country and make life better. I think a candid answer here would again be helpful to the potential immigrants who would definitely like to know why - after all these hardships - people still chose to stay back.
I have already been in Canada for approximately 5 years. I am waiting for my Canadian citizenship to be processed. In addition, I also have a little course work left for my masters degree. After I get my Canadian citizenship, I will explore the possibility of returning back to US. I am not a US citizen, but can work there on TN visa, if I have Canadian citizenship and put myself on the path to eventually getting a US green card. I am interested in doing something that will make me achieve financial freedom ie reach a point where I don't have to worry about money any longer in order to pay bills. But I can't do that in Canada. There is very little upward mobility for visible minorities. Upward mobility in terms of social mobility, economic mobility and political mobility. In US, there are plenty of minorities who are multi-millionaires. That does not happen very often in Canada.

Let me be clear. If I criticize the racism and discrimination in Canada, that does not make me disloyal or unpatriotic to Canada. I continue to be an ardent advocate of Canadian exceptionalism. I continue to be mesmerized with the physical beauty of the scenic landscape of Canada - its mountains, meadows, national parks etc. I continue to be appreciative of the diversity in cities like Toronto, which has created a cultural mosaic that makes Canada, so much more interesting. That diverse composition in the population in turn has influenced the art, culture, cuisine, political contours and discourse/debate; which will have a long-lasting influence on the heritage of Canada. Here, in Canada, I have met people from different countries for the first time. I have to acknowledge that the founding settlers were a smart breed - they had the discipline, ingenuity, intelligence and courage to organize themselves in such a manner so as to catapult Canada to a developed country in a short span of time. With the exception of transportation**, the infrastructure in Canada is one of the best in the world. Canada's social services, until recently were the best in the world - until the conservative government came and began dismantling it. During the last five years, I greatly enjoying contributing my time, energy, ideas and money to Canadian charities. Canadians volunteer a lot, which is most admirable. So all this is great, its fantastic. But as a nation, we are also racist, we discriminate against minorities, aboriginals and women - in a covert manner. This is the ugly side that we don't want to talk about.

Regarding VivekSharma's question on why I don't leave Canada, yes, I plan on exploring the possibility of relocating to US or some other country. Not because I hate Canada (I don't, I am proud to be Canadian), but because I wish to flee racism and discrimination. Its the same reason why the Jews fled Germany in the 1930's and 1940's. They left not because they hated Germany, but because they were being discriminated against and to save their lives. If you asked those Jews, they will say that they still love Germany and would like to return if there were no racism. By the way, out of those Jews who fled Germany, many immigrated to US and the rest as they say, is history. Jews dominate banking, politics, the diamond trade, legal field and many other sectors in US and across other developed countries. German Jews who immigrated to US helped it to develop its military capabilities to unprecedented levels. This included developing the atom bomb, which secured US victory during World War II.

I can either continue to stay in Canada, tolerate racism and be a little guy on the fringes of Canadian society; or move into some other country and achieve my true potential. Which option looks better to any sane, rational human being? Talent always gravitates to countries that has a conducive social, political and economic environment. Part of the reason why America became such a great country is because it was able to attract immigrants from all over the world (Jews, Italians, Asians etc) and assimilate them. Anecdotal evidence suggests that the exodus of highly qualified and talented immigrants from Canada to US (and possibly other countries) has already begun. I have some immigrant friends who relocated to US as soon as they got their Canadian citizenship. I repeat again - I love Canada. After relocating to US, if the Canadian government were to ever call upon me to render some service to it - I would consider it an honour to be of any use. Its just that many visible minority immigrants find it inconvenient to live here due to the lack of opportunities, covert hostility and feel very marginalized. That does not make them bad Canadians, worthy of our collective scorn and contempt.

**I continue to be a big critic of the transportation infrastructure across Canada, its lagging behind its peer countries and in some cases, even behind developing countries such as China, Singapore, India etc. In many parts of rural Canada, they don't have access to any form of public or even private transportation - buses, trains, airports etc. This is yet another form of discrimination that is rarely discussed - the urban versus rural divide. That in turn fuels racism in Canada, due to the lack of cultural exposure. True cultural integration will only happen when you establish transportation networks across Canada that improve connectivity across communities. Even developing countries like China and India have succeeded in doing this - they have got a train and a bus going to every little village across the length and breadth of their country. But Canada has not been able to accomplish this, despite having access to far greater financial resources.
 

david1697

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Flute said:
I have already been in Canada for approximately 5 years. I am waiting for my Canadian citizenship to be processed. In addition, I also have a little course work left for my masters degree. After I get my Canadian citizenship, I will explore the possibility of returning back to US. I am not a US citizen, but can work there on TN visa, if I have Canadian citizenship and put myself on the path to eventually getting a US green card. I am interested in doing something that will make me achieve financial freedom ie reach a point where I don't have to worry about money any longer in order to pay bills. But I can't do that in Canada. There is very little upward mobility for visible minorities. Upward mobility in terms of social mobility, economic mobility and political mobility. In US, there are plenty of minorities who are multi-millionaires. That does not happen very often in Canada.

Let me be clear. If I criticize the racism and discrimination in Canada, that does not make me disloyal or unpatriotic to Canada. I continue to be an ardent advocate of Canadian exceptionalism. I continue to be mesmerized with the physical beauty of the scenic landscape of Canada - its mountains, meadows, national parks etc. I continue to be appreciative of the diversity in cities like Toronto, which has created a cultural mosaic that makes Canada, so much more interesting. That diverse composition in the population in turn has influenced the art, culture, cuisine, political contours and discourse/debate; which will have a long-lasting influence on the heritage of Canada. Here, in Canada, I have met people from different countries for the first time. I have to acknowledge that the founding settlers were a smart breed - they had the discipline, ingenuity, intelligence and courage to organize themselves in such a manner so as to catapult Canada to a developed country in a short span of time. With the exception of transportation**, the infrastructure in Canada is one of the best in the world. Canada's social services, until recently were the best in the world - until the conservative government came and began dismantling it. During the last five years, I greatly enjoying contributing my time, energy, ideas and money to Canadian charities. Canadians volunteer a lot, which is most admirable. So all this is great, its fantastic. But as a nation, we are also racist, we discriminate against minorities, aboriginals and women - in a covert manner. This is the ugly side that we don't want to talk about.

Regarding VivekSharma's question on why I don't leave Canada, yes, I plan on exploring the possibility of relocating to US or some other country. Not because I hate Canada (I don't, I am proud to be Canadian), but because I wish to flee racism and discrimination. Its the same reason why the Jews fled Germany in the 1930's and 1940's. They left not because they hated Germany, but because they were being discriminated against and to save their lives. If you asked those Jews, they will say that they still love Germany and would like to return if there were no racism. By the way, out of those Jews who fled Germany, many immigrated to US and the rest as they say, is history. Jews dominate banking, politics, the diamond trade, legal field and many other sectors in US and across other developed countries. German Jews who immigrated to US helped it to develop its military capabilities to unprecedented levels. This included developing the atom bomb, which secured US victory during World War II.

I can either continue to stay in Canada, tolerate racism and be a little guy on the fringes of Canadian society; or move into some other country and achieve my true potential. Which option looks better to any sane, rational human being? Talent always gravitates to countries that has a conducive social, political and economic environment. Part of the reason why America became such a great country is because it was able to attract immigrants from all over the world (Jews, Italians, Asians etc) and assimilate them. Anecdotal evidence suggests that the exodus of highly qualified and talented immigrants from Canada to US (and possibly other countries) has already begun. I have some immigrant friends who relocated to US as soon as they got their Canadian citizenship. I repeat again - I love Canada. After relocating to US, if the Canadian government were to ever call upon me to render some service to it - I would consider it an honour to be of any use. Its just that many visible minority immigrants find it inconvenient to live here due to the lack of opportunities, covert hostility and feel very marginalized. That does not make them bad Canadians, worthy of our collective scorn and contempt.

**I continue to be a big critic of the transportation infrastructure across Canada, its lagging behind its peer countries and in some cases, even behind developing countries such as China, Singapore, India etc. In many parts of rural Canada, they don't have access to any form of public or even private transportation - buses, trains, airports etc. This is yet another form of discrimination that is rarely discussed - the urban versus rural divide. That in turn fuels racism in Canada, due to the lack of cultural exposure. True cultural integration will only happen when you establish transportation networks across Canada that improve connectivity across communities. Even developing countries like China and India have succeeded in doing this - they have got a train and a bus going to every little village across the length and breadth of their country. But Canada has not been able to accomplish this, despite having access to far greater financial resources.

With all due respect, no offense intended , but why you all have this BS idea that US is the paradise of opportunities?
It simply isn't true, not anymore.
We have similar to Canadian economy, the only difference is here you still can get phone calls , interviews and (eventually) a white collar job without
"networking" (just by applying for jobs online), whereas in Canada no one will even bother to call you unless you are "networked" and personally referred. (this is my personal experience, after sending hundreds of resumes for Canadian jobs).

But in NO WAY US is the place of upward mobility, not anymore. Whatever your job is you get stuck here. Even if someone up the chain quits they don't promote you up from within, they hire someone from outside who has experience of similar level position (I guess economic reasoning is that someone who has been doing more responsible work already knows how to do it, while you are a best asset while continuing to do what you do).

This severely lagging and mismatching the current reality legend about 'good ole USA' is part of the problem we have a problem too - everyone seems to be coming here in search of opportunities while opportunities flee US with the speed of sound (many profitable corporations go overseas for cheap labor, small businesses get broke and close, with remaining jobs having a fierce competition of hundreds of applicants for each vacancy).

USA is still greatest country in the world, no where you will have the same sense of Freedom you can have here, but as far as economic opportunities concerned, I couldn't stay quite reading how you praise it as a paradise of al kind of opportunities.
You must be getting your info from Clinton era and days long bygone. Wake up everybody and smell the coffee :)
 

novsaggi

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My 2 cents - grass isnt greener on US side as well.

Flute said:
I have already been in Canada for approximately 5 years. I am waiting for my Canadian citizenship to be processed. In addition, I also have a little course work left for my masters degree. After I get my Canadian citizenship, I will explore the possibility of returning back to US. I am not a US citizen, but can work there on TN visa, if I have Canadian citizenship and put myself on the path to eventually getting a US green card. I am interested in doing something that will make me achieve financial freedom ie reach a point where I don't have to worry about money any longer in order to pay bills. But I can't do that in Canada. There is very little upward mobility for visible minorities. Upward mobility in terms of social mobility, economic mobility and political mobility. In US, there are plenty of minorities who are multi-millionaires. That does not happen very often in Canada.

Let me be clear. If I criticize the racism and discrimination in Canada, that does not make me disloyal or unpatriotic to Canada. I continue to be an ardent advocate of Canadian exceptionalism. I continue to be mesmerized with the physical beauty of the scenic landscape of Canada - its mountains, meadows, national parks etc. I continue to be appreciative of the diversity in cities like Toronto, which has created a cultural mosaic that makes Canada, so much more interesting. That diverse composition in the population in turn has influenced the art, culture, cuisine, political contours and discourse/debate; which will have a long-lasting influence on the heritage of Canada. Here, in Canada, I have met people from different countries for the first time. I have to acknowledge that the founding settlers were a smart breed - they had the discipline, ingenuity, intelligence and courage to organize themselves in such a manner so as to catapult Canada to a developed country in a short span of time. With the exception of transportation**, the infrastructure in Canada is one of the best in the world. Canada's social services, until recently were the best in the world - until the conservative government came and began dismantling it. During the last five years, I greatly enjoying contributing my time, energy, ideas and money to Canadian charities. Canadians volunteer a lot, which is most admirable. So all this is great, its fantastic. But as a nation, we are also racist, we discriminate against minorities, aboriginals and women - in a covert manner. This is the ugly side that we don't want to talk about.

Regarding VivekSharma's question on why I don't leave Canada, yes, I plan on exploring the possibility of relocating to US or some other country. Not because I hate Canada (I don't, I am proud to be Canadian), but because I wish to flee racism and discrimination. Its the same reason why the Jews fled Germany in the 1930's and 1940's. They left not because they hated Germany, but because they were being discriminated against and to save their lives. If you asked those Jews, they will say that they still love Germany and would like to return if there were no racism. By the way, out of those Jews who fled Germany, many immigrated to US and the rest as they say, is history. Jews dominate banking, politics, the diamond trade, legal field and many other sectors in US and across other developed countries. German Jews who immigrated to US helped it to develop its military capabilities to unprecedented levels. This included developing the atom bomb, which secured US victory during World War II.

I can either continue to stay in Canada, tolerate racism and be a little guy on the fringes of Canadian society; or move into some other country and achieve my true potential. Which option looks better to any sane, rational human being? Talent always gravitates to countries that has a conducive social, political and economic environment. Part of the reason why America became such a great country is because it was able to attract immigrants from all over the world (Jews, Italians, Asians etc) and assimilate them. Anecdotal evidence suggests that the exodus of highly qualified and talented immigrants from Canada to US (and possibly other countries) has already begun. I have some immigrant friends who relocated to US as soon as they got their Canadian citizenship. I repeat again - I love Canada. After relocating to US, if the Canadian government were to ever call upon me to render some service to it - I would consider it an honour to be of any use. Its just that many visible minority immigrants find it inconvenient to live here due to the lack of opportunities, covert hostility and feel very marginalized. That does not make them bad Canadians, worthy of our collective scorn and contempt.

**I continue to be a big critic of the transportation infrastructure across Canada, its lagging behind its peer countries and in some cases, even behind developing countries such as China, Singapore, India etc. In many parts of rural Canada, they don't have access to any form of public or even private transportation - buses, trains, airports etc. This is yet another form of discrimination that is rarely discussed - the urban versus rural divide. That in turn fuels racism in Canada, due to the lack of cultural exposure. True cultural integration will only happen when you establish transportation networks across Canada that improve connectivity across communities. Even developing countries like China and India have succeeded in doing this - they have got a train and a bus going to every little village across the length and breadth of their country. But Canada has not been able to accomplish this, despite having access to far greater financial resources.
 

steaky

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Flute said:
And if you are thinking, that I am some run-of-the-mill immigrant, let me assure you that I am not. I earned 3 degrees from universities in Asia and am close to finishing my 4th degree from a law school in Canada. I also earned 2 dozen certifications in various technical/professional areas. I have over 15 years of work experience as a manager in RBC, BMO and a multi-billion dollar Asian corporation. I am also very hard-working, and barely avail any vacations. Despite this, I lost my job thrice in Canada. While in Canada, I have devoted my time and money to charitable causes, paid taxes, adhered to all laws and done everything to be a model immigrant. And yet, I face discrimination and have a hard time. Life in Canada is not as rosy as it looks from other countries. Yes, I agree that getting Permanent Resident status is relatively easier in Canada than in other countries. But the real struggle begins once you land in Canada. Visible minority immigrants have a hard time integrating into the local economy here. They find it hard to find and keep their jobs. I am really regretting my decision. And I am only trying to help you by saving you a great deal of trouble. Please stay away from Canada, this is the best advice you will ever get.
What's the point of coming to Canada, work very hard and barely avail any vacations if you can instead, after graduating in Asia, work in your home country and make yourself wealthy enough, then immigrate to Canada and have a good life there? Where in Asia did you find that grass is no greener than Canada?

Also, are you still referring to your experience in that GAP store? That wasn't discrimination.
 

RocketCity

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david1697 said:
With all due respect, no offense intended , but why you all have this BS idea that US is the paradise of opportunities?
It simply isn't true, not anymore.
It still is relatively speaking depending on your field. I'm still getting calls from recruiters from other companies. And I'm by no means at the top of my field. The only reason I haven't entertained any opportunities is due to the fact that I'm in the middle of my green card processing. I also found my current job 2 years ago in this manner.
 

david1697

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RocketCity said:
It still is relatively speaking depending on your field. I'm still getting calls from recruiters from other companies. And I'm by no means at the top of my field. The only reason I haven't entertained any opportunities is due to the fact that I'm in the middle of my green card processing. I also found my current job 2 years ago in this manner.
If you go by "depending on your field", then Canada is just as great if not better. Polara69 can tell you he got his job in two weeks in Canada. And I believe him. There are some fields in Canada, such as blue collar and skilled trades, where it's relatively easy to get a job (or up until very recently it was).
 

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Flute said:
If you are a visible minority (ie non-white) and planning to immigrate to Canada, think twice. If you are currently in another country and you are well educated, speak good English, have a stable job that pays a decent salary or a business that is doing well, have a family there that loves you, and the political situation in your country is stable (ie no civil war that endangers your life) - then I can assure you that the grass in Canada is certainly not greener than that in your country. So think twice before immigrating to Canada.

Read about my experience and benefit from the research I have done:
http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/discrimination-against-visible-minorities-in-canada-t275537.15.html

Follow the discussion on this thread, which I initiated, based on my personal experience as an immigrant in Canada since last 5 years:
http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/discrimination-against-visible-minorities-in-canada-t275537.15.html

Read this article titled, "Canada faces dramatic drop in citizenship, prompting concerns about disengaged immigrants"
http://www.thestar.com/news/immigration/2015/03/24/canada-faces-dramatic-drop-in-citizenship-prompting-concerns-about-disengaged-immigrants.html

And if you are thinking, that I am some run-of-the-mill immigrant, let me assure you that I am not. I earned 3 degrees from universities in Asia and am close to finishing my 4th degree from a law school in Canada. I also earned 2 dozen certifications in various technical/professional areas. I have over 15 years of work experience as a manager in RBC, BMO and a multi-billion dollar Asian corporation. I am also very hard-working, and barely avail any vacations. Despite this, I lost my job thrice in Canada. While in Canada, I have devoted my time and money to charitable causes, paid taxes, adhered to all laws and done everything to be a model immigrant. And yet, I face discrimination and have a hard time. Life in Canada is not as rosy as it looks from other countries. Yes, I agree that getting Permanent Resident status is relatively easier in Canada than in other countries. But the real struggle begins once you land in Canada. Visible minority immigrants have a hard time integrating into the local economy here. They find it hard to find and keep their jobs. I am really regretting my decision. And I am only trying to help you by saving you a great deal of trouble. Please stay away from Canada, this is the best advice you will ever get.

Yes , what new in this. Still it's worth coming Canada and people never regret.
You can not accept to come and became top boss here , if one is so talented then he/she would never ever thought to leave his/her homeland. And would be sitting in very high position there.
Think this way , Even you won't succeed (which is not case with everyone) but your children's will be integrated into Canadian society and they will get what they deserve once grown up. Please do not be so negative. I am sure once you get good job then you will be talking good things about Canada.
Keep faith in almighty and in yourself too, all the best.
 

Theo123

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Jan 17, 2015
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now that ive been reading a lot of horror stories here, i think ill re-consider migrating to australia instead. job employability there is smooth upon checkin on australia immigration forums. they even include it in their immigration timelines. the only problem i have is that my profession is not currently under their skills list. im googling on new zealand immigration right now.
 

david1697

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Canada is not a horror story. Economy wise and as far as scarcity of jobs is concerned, yes, it's a tough place to be now.
And this is what happens when economy sucks.

But as far how you are treated in Canada, I would say on one hand that you will always and everywhere be a victim of at least some "mental shortcuts", regardless of your race, appearance, ethnic background and so on.

On the other hand, in comparison with many other countries, Canada is perhaps one of the best with friendliest and welcoming population of all (I am talking about everyday interaction with strangers, I can't be certain and know for sure what the inner dynamics inside organizations are).

Overall, I would be very happy to live in Canada as it is now, if only I had means to support my family and myself while living there.

In my opinion economy is where bad news is, not your being visible or invisible minority.
 

Flute

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Apr 5, 2014
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david1697 said:
Canada is not a horror story. Economy wise and as far as scarcity of jobs is concerned, yes, it's a tough place to be now.
And this is what happens when economy sucks.

But as far how you are treated in Canada, I would say on one hand that you will always and everywhere be a victim of at least some "mental shortcuts", regardless of your race, appearance, ethnic background and so on.

On the other hand, in comparison with many other countries, Canada is perhaps one of the best with friendliest and welcoming population of all (I am talking about everyday interaction with strangers, I can't be certain and know for sure what the inner dynamics inside organizations are).

Overall, I would be very happy to live in Canada as it is now, if only I had means to support my family and myself while living there.

In my opinion economy is where bad news is, not your being visible or invisible minority.
"Mental shortcut" is a very convenient theory to justify that discrimination and racist conduct of some white people, is caused by some psychological aberration, which exists in every human being. It is an attempt to justify the guilt by providing a scientific fig leaf to cover the naked abuse of the system. The reality is, discrimination and racism is illegal and perverted conduct, caused by deliberate and calculated intent, with the objective of causing harm to certain sections of the society such as aboriginals and visible minorities. Equating racist conduct and discrimination with "mental short cut" is akin to a misogynist saying rape is merely "rough sex" in a bid to justify the conduct of fellow misogynists. Its time, we started accepting ground realities and not find excuses to justify despicable behaviour that erodes the social fabric and character of a nation.