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US citizen/Canadian PR.. Applying For Canadian Citizenship..

apnapan

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Nov 28, 2017
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I am a 65 year old US citizen and became a permanent resident of Canada on 6th aug 2010. My son and daughter live in USA. I visit them frequently all these years on some weekends and sometimes on long weekendsI am sure despite all my trips to USA I qualify for the number of days under 3/5.. We live in sister cities close to Canada /US border.All these years I have crossed the border showing my US travel document (Passport Card).I am short of memory even for recent event and . I am finding extremely difficult to recollect dates of Border crossing by car (always) for last 5 years. My question is what is the best way for me to get the exact dates
a) By applying to CBSA for entry records or

b) By applying to CBP (FOIA) for entry /exit records.

I read on the net that US citizens can not get info from CBP (FOIA), and they have no record if you cross the land border by car. Is there any other way or agency to help get at least some information?

For me it is impossible to give all dates for last five years considering my health and state of memory. Can I request my learned friends if they can suggest how should I proceed.to get these dates as accurately as possible.

Note : I was an Indian citizen , before I became US citizen in 2010. Now I also hold OCI card means I am Overseas citizen of India also. So I have to mention it in my application I suppose ,but is this considered as a citizenship of India ,and if yes then can I keep all 3 citizenships . I am very confused. I request my learned friends ,to pay the utmost attention as things are getting late by the day. Thank you all .
 

Krutika

Star Member
May 5, 2016
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I am a 65 year old US citizen and became a permanent resident of Canada on 6th aug 2010. My son and daughter live in USA. I visit them frequently all these years on some weekends and sometimes on long weekendsI am sure despite all my trips to USA I qualify for the number of days under 3/5.. We live in sister cities close to Canada /US border.All these years I have crossed the border showing my US travel document (Passport Card).I am short of memory even for recent event and . I am finding extremely difficult to recollect dates of Border crossing by car (always) for last 5 years. My question is what is the best way for me to get the exact dates
a) By applying to CBSA for entry records or

b) By applying to CBP (FOIA) for entry /exit records.

I read on the net that US citizens can not get info from CBP (FOIA), and they have no record if you cross the land border by car. Is there any other way or agency to help get at least some information?

For me it is impossible to give all dates for last five years considering my health and state of memory. Can I request my learned friends if they can suggest how should I proceed.to get these dates as accurately as possible.

Note : I was an Indian citizen , before I became US citizen in 2010. Now I also hold OCI card means I am Overseas citizen of India also. So I have to mention it in my application I suppose ,but is this considered as a citizenship of India ,and if yes then can I keep all 3 citizenships . I am very confused. I request my learned friends ,to pay the utmost attention as things are getting late by the day. Thank you all .

I'm not sure about a) and b) ... but I have couple of friends who are US citizens and Canadian PR's .. I'll try to ask them ..

For the OCI part .. I'm thinking it's just basically a life long visa (don't they issue a 'U' class visa sticker in your passport, denoting 'life long') .. so in essence it probably does not need to be mentioned .. as it's main purpose is to let to enter the country anytime you please, just like a 10 year multiple entry visa ..
You can argue that it also allows you to live and work in India (only thing is you can't vote, stand for public office, or buy agricultural land), but so do visa exempt countries for 6 months at a time for Canadian/US citizens.. that does not mean you are a PR of the visa exempt country .. so i'm thinking same applies here ..
Perhaps others here can correct me, if I'm wrong ..
 

jakejakejake

Newbie
Feb 2, 2018
9
1
My wife and I were in the same situation and actually did both - we requested our CBSA records and our US CBP records and pieced together our histories.

We had many single day and two day trips that we wanted to be sure to remember and accuracy is important.

As a US Citizen/Canadian PR with a NEXUS card I found that entrances to both countries are nearly always tracked (even in a car or as a pedestrian) regardless of the travel document presented, and a good number of exits are tracked as well, so the combination of both sets of records should be helpful for you. I would imagine crossing with a passport card would generate entries on your crossing history, just like NEXUS and Canadian PR cards do.
 
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robinhood_1984

Hero Member
Jan 22, 2018
206
77
I read on the net that US citizens can not get info from CBP (FOIA), and they have no record if you cross the land border by car. Is there any other way or agency to help get at least some information?
As a US citizen, it is I94 online records that you you cannot access because they don't exist for you. They are for people such as myself who cross in to the US on a British passport. I wouldn't worry about that though, I've checked mine and the majority of my crossings are entirely missing.

As a US citizen, you can obtain your crossings from CBP with a FOIA but from what I understand, it can take quite some time to receive it. I'd apply for that ASAP and once you have it, along with your Canadian CBSA records, you can join up all the dots and give an accurate account of departures and arrivals etc.
 
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scylla

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My advice is to keep track of everything on a spreadsheet yourself and list everything in the citizenship application - even if it doesn't appear in any official government records you can access. My husband (American) forgot about a single day trip to the US (i.e. same day return) where he crossed over and then back in a friend's car. He was keeping an excel spreadsheet listing all of this travel specifically for his citizenship application but forgot about this one. It also did not appear in CBSA records or through FOIA. But guess what? Somehow CIC knew about it all the same (they knew about the departure but had no record of his return). He ended up getting RQ'd because this trip wasn't listed in his citizenship application.
 
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Rorosgurl

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My advice is to keep track of everything on a spreadsheet yourself and list everything in the citizenship application - even if it doesn't appear in any official government records you can access. My husband (American) forgot about a single day trip to the US (i.e. same day return) where he crossed over and then back in a friend's car. He was keeping an excel spreadsheet listing all of this travel specifically for his citizenship application but forgot about this one. It also did not appear in CBSA records or through FOIA. But guess what? Somehow CIC knew about it all the same (they knew about the departure but had no record of his return). He ended up getting RQ'd because this trip wasn't listed in his citizenship application.
So you are saying foia wont show all the dates? Oh god
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
95,938
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Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
So you are saying foia wont show all the dates? Oh god
I don't know. It might show all trips for some. It didn't show all trips for my husband. There were several missing for him.

One reason I very strongly recommend keeping an Excel spreadsheet of all travel...
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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AN OVERVIEW:

It is important to accurately and completely report international travel dates, as accurately and completely as possible. Any failure to do so can be problematic. Not every minor failure to do so will be problematic, but it can be. Omissions and multiple inaccuracies tend to be more problematic. How problematic will vary and depend on many factors. Apart from and in addition to the nature and extent of discrepancies indicated (a factor which can range from minor concern to a big concern), the big factors tend to be:

(1) how close-to-the-minimum presence the applicant is -- or how much of a margin over the minimum the applicant has -- more margin tends to be better (but a big margin is not always enough)

(2) the extent to which it is well-apparent the applicant is fully settled and living a life in Canada, and has been during the period of time reported to have been present in Canada

(3) applicant credibility; while any perception of overt intent to deceive tends to be highly problematic, the obvious, additionally any circumstances suggesting the applicant is not a reliable reporter of facts will tend to compromise the applicant's credibility, and this is a huge factor; for context, numerous or big errors in reported facts suggests a lack of reliable reporting, no matter how innocent or accidental, since it indicates the individual cannot be relied upon to provide accurate information, as evidenced by the applicant's failure to provide accurate information


RELIABLE SOURCES:

Government and other sources can help a lot to reconstruct the travel dates, BUT there is really only one source who can for sure provide a complete and accurate record: that is the PR himself or herself. The PR is the one and only source in the whole world who can FOR SURE account for all cross-border events. The PR was there, each and every time.

If, as things turn out, the one best source of this information fails to provide a complete and accurate accounting of all travel abroad, IRCC has good reason to not just have questions but to be skeptical. Thus, in every case IRCC will at least make some effort to verify the applicant's information, and in some cases IRCC makes a concerted effort to verify the applicant's information.

Make no mistake: IRCC does NOT reconstruct an applicant's accounting of travel history. IRCC will consider various sources of information to determine if the applicant's account of travel history is accurate and complete. If IRCC determines the applicant's account is NOT accurate or NOT complete, IRCC will assess the significance of this against the application as a whole. Some report NO problem despite a three-week omission in their reported travel history. Others report RQ and even a highly skeptical response apparently triggered by what might seem to be an isolated and very small discrepancy in reported travel history. I referenced key factors above. Applicant's demeanor in the interview can make a difference. Collateral information can play a role.

But the overriding element is whether or not IRCC believes the applicant has, but for this or that mistake, provided reliable information which sufficiently shows the applicant met the physical presence requirement. To be clear: IRCC depends on the applicant to provide reliable information which sufficiently shows the physical presence requirement was met.

Thus, the report by @scylla is an important one:

My advice is to keep track of everything on a spreadsheet yourself and list everything in the citizenship application - even if it doesn't appear in any official government records you can access. My husband (American) forgot about a single day trip to the US (i.e. same day return) where he crossed over and then back in a friend's car. He was keeping an excel spreadsheet listing all of this travel specifically for his citizenship application but forgot about this one. It also did not appear in CBSA records or through FOIA. But guess what? Somehow CIC knew about it all the same (they knew about the departure but had no record of his return). He ended up getting RQ'd because this trip wasn't listed in his citizenship application.
The reason I like this post is simple: it illustrates how and why the failure to accurately and completely report all travel history can cause problems. It also illustrates that the government sources cannot be relied upon exclusively (which should be obvious but for some reason perceptions otherwise continue to persist . . . one might consider, for example, a visit to the Haskell Free Library in Stanstead, Quebec to do some research on the subject about how easily one could exit the library into Vermont, and depending on how closely the video monitors are being in fact watched, continue down the road to Burlington or even New York City without interdiction by roving U.S. Border Patrol . . . and later return to Canada via the same route . . . just one among many, many places it is easy to walk or take a small boat across the border without passing through border security).

I say the report by @scylla is important notwithstanding this particular example (RQ triggered by omission of one short trip abroad) is probably unusual. My sense is that an isolated, single omission will NOT typically trigger RQ. IRCC is well-acquainted with the fact that many if not most applicants, if not nearly all applicants, make some mistakes in their application, including as to reported travel history. So long as the mistakes are minor (noting that almost any omission of a cross-border travel event is significant, but in context can be minor, as in not having much impact on the overall assessment), few in number, and do not implicate EITHER (1) the POSSIBILITY of not meeting a qualification requirement OR (2) compromised applicant credibility, THEN the mistake(s) are not likely to trigger non-routine processing let alone pose a risk to the outcome of the application.

BUT, as the @scylla example illustrates: an accurate and complete accounting of travel history is IMPORTANT and any discrepancy can trigger elevated scrutiny.

How much leeway there is, otherwise, varies. It depends. It depends on many factors. It is very difficult to forecast.

For me it is impossible to give all dates for last five years considering my health and state of memory. Can I request my learned friends if they can suggest how should I proceed.to get these dates as accurately as possible.
The question may be how close you can come to reporting all trips accurately.

Combining what you can confirm from both the U.S. records AND CBSA travel history, in conjunction with using every other resource available (email, credit card transaction dates, banking transaction dates, family memory as well as your own, anything and everything which can help you reconstruct the trips), you can probably come very close to being near accurate. Will that be enough? Whether that will be sufficient to avoid something like RQ, that too will DEPEND on multiple factors. Whether that will be sufficient to assure a positive outcome, that too will DEPEND on multiple factors.

No one here can fully unravel all the relevant considerations and give you assurances about how this will go. The best assurance, the best insurance, is to be sure to get every travel date correct. As @scylla suggests, the best assurance is a completely accurate accounting (such as in a spreadsheet) of each and every trip. And again, there is only one best source for the information populating that spreadsheet: the PR himself or herself.

You could wait to apply only after you are sure you can account for all trips accurately. You probably should wait to apply only after you are confident you can be very near accurate in accounting for very near all trips. You almost certainly should wait to apply only after you are confident you have a substantial margin over the minimum . . . the less certain you are about reporting ALL travel dates accurately, the BIGGER your margin should be before you apply.

BUT again, a big margin does not always suffice . . . your credibility looms very large, and how accurately your accounting of travel dates is can have a huge impact on your credibility. In this regard, it warrants noting and emphasizing that in order to deny an application (let alone subject it to non-routine processing and a referral to a Citizenship Judge for a hearing) IRCC does not need to show or even conclude the applicant's errors add up to enough days to show falling short of the minimum; the question is whether the applicant's accounting of presence meets the burden of proving presence. Thus, for example, just because IRCC only identifies the applicant missed reporting two or three trips adding up to another thirty days abroad, that does not mean it will go OK if the applicant had a margin above the minimum by more than thirty days or even a hundred days. Once the applicant's accounting is in doubt, it is subject to being doubted in its entirety.

Whether the government records will provide enough information to give you such confidence about your travel history is something no one here can answer.
 
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hfinkel

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Feb 23, 2012
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I am a 65 year old US citizen and became a permanent resident of Canada on 6th aug 2010. My son and daughter live in USA. I visit them frequently all these years on some weekends and sometimes on long weekends I am sure despite all my trips to USA I qualify for the number of days under 3/5.. We live in sister cities close to Canada /US border.All these years I have crossed the border showing my US travel document (Passport Card).I am short of memory even for recent event and . I am finding extremely difficult to recollect dates of Border crossing by car (always) for last 5 years. My question is what is the best way for me to get the exact dates
a) By applying to CBSA for entry records or

b) By applying to CBP (FOIA) for entry /exit records.
.
That's exactly what my family did.... applied for both CBSA border crossing records from Canada and CBP records from a VOIA request to the US CBP and then took both reports and just lined them up by dates. That took care of my trips back into the US.

Our situation is similar to your's. We live quite close to the border and have family just south of the border close by so we had 100s of crossings of less than a day outside Canada. And I commuted last year for 7 months on a daily basis cross-border to the US each day to work, coming home back to Canada each night. So my own Physical Presence Calculator report was quite long.

For other trips outside North America, I just went back to my personal email account for all of the airline reservations to assemble other international travel dates.

It is really basically that simple as the IRCC will be going by the same CBSA records that you will be requested to verify what you enter in to your Physical Presence Calculator.

It's nice that partial days present in Canada count as days present in Canada for the purposes of counting days present.
You may know that this is not the case in the US.... down there, they only allow you to count entire days you were present all 24 hours in the US.

Good luck!
 
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robinhood_1984

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How can it be that IRCC know about border crossings that a travel report obtained under the Privacy Act from CBSA themselves fails to mention? I'm assuming that all information pertaining to arrivals in to Canada are recorded by CBSA themselves so surely a request for information must disclose all information to the applicant? and that IRCC can only know about what CBSA records contain?
 

hfinkel

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How can it be that IRCC know about border crossings that a travel report obtained under the Privacy Act from CBSA themselves fails to mention? I'm assuming that all information pertaining to arrivals in to Canada are recorded by CBSA themselves so surely a request for information must disclose all information to the applicant? and that IRCC can only know about what CBSA records contain?
That is a very good question.

Perhaps the search commands executed on the same computer system between two different government employees turns up slightly different results because the search criteria wasn't the same? This is only a guess.

I've had 100s of trips into the US and honestly didn't keep a personal diary of all of them so I had to rely on the CBSA and US CBP reports to make the entries into a spreadsheet which were then entered into the Physical Presence Calculator.

In my case, I found the CBP and the CBSA reports correlated completely so I feel fairly confident that IRCC will not find anything in their own search that I have not reported.
 

btbt

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How can it be that IRCC know about border crossings that a travel report obtained under the Privacy Act from CBSA themselves fails to mention? I'm assuming that all information pertaining to arrivals in to Canada are recorded by CBSA themselves so surely a request for information must disclose all information to the applicant? and that IRCC can only know about what CBSA records contain?
We don't know.

Some guesses are: a request for information will not get you all possible information: the organisation you're requesting information from need not go through extraordinary lengths to find all the information (as that would tie up too many resources). So when the request was made someone did a simple query on the database and sent the result.

But...

Maybe a second database was consolidated later (because that one border crossing had a network outage, so the information wasn't sent to the central system). Or maybe some lost data was restored from backup, after some kind of hardware failure. Maybe information under an information-sharing agreement was added later (because the sharing isn't real-time). Maybe the information was made available under an information-sharing agreement, but is not part of the records that can be released under the privacy act (because it would expose where some information comes from).

There are no doubt other possible explanations for the discrepancy, these were just a few of the ones that came to mind. I don't think it does us any good to speculate, though. We know this kind of thing can happen and we know how to avoid running into trouble because of it (keep track of travel dates, and where possible keep documentation for each trip).
 
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Rorosgurl

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App. Filed.......
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Med's Done....
September 6th 2013
So you are saying foia wont show all the dates? Oh god
So off course after 2 months waiting. I only got my exits. Even though I requested both entry and exit from them. I am so furious
 

alphazip

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So off course after 2 months waiting. I only got my exits. Even though I requested both entry and exit from them. I am so furious
You only got your exits? I could understand Canada or the U.S. only giving entries (that's what they're mainly concerned with), but only giving exits seems quite strange. You do understand that to receive a complete picture of entries and exits you need to apply to both CBSA and CBP, right? An entry into the U.S. represents an exit from Canada, and an entry into Canada represents an exit from the U.S.