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Urgent:Have to leave Canada for two weeks, don't have a PR card, Indian passport

badpusacat

Hero Member
Jun 18, 2013
683
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Category........
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2147
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Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
FeDex-ed 26-06-13
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15-10-2014/FeDex-ed 26-10
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15-10-2014
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29-10-2014
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29-09-2014
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Nov 2014
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Dec 2014
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July 2015
dpenabill said:
That is, the take-away here, the lesson-to-be-learned, is to avoid making international travel plans during a period of transition, like that involved in landing and becoming a Permanent Resident, if at all possible. Once a person lands and becomes a Canadian PR, any visitor visa for Canada is automatically cancelled, of no authority. Unless and until the new PR has a PR card in hand it can be risky to go abroad except in circumstances which will facilitate obtaining a PR Travel Document during the trip. That is the lesson-to-be-learned here, and one that warrants being taken into consideration by new PRs who might be contemplating international travel soon after landing.
Agree!

tyrionLannister, this is not the first time that PR card got delayed. You are not the first person to encounter this issue. Some people where even ask for a new set of photos while all along they taught that PR card is on the way. It would have been great if you've done your research first prior to arranging your vacation. My suggestion: (1)while you're on your vacation, have someone check your mailbox for any PR card and have it sent to you via courier (although this is not "allowed" by CIC) (2) PRTD.

I would not risk using the tourist visa.
 
Jul 7, 2016
16
2
Update on the whole scenario:

We did our trip, before we left, we went to ask about what should be done to the border officers at Edmonton International Airport (YEG).

They saw the Visitor visa and the PR IM-1 stamped (and cancelled) on the passport. They said that I should not cancel or postpone the trip because my wife would be fine with the visit visa. So we were feeling a bit better and we went anyway taking a risk and hoping when we come back it would be fine.

AND..

That is exactly what happened, we went to Italy and France. Before we went we had sent both the VAC and the embassy emails asking for advice for our case. They both said that they can make a PRTD in 2 days (by emails). I personally went to Rome's Canadian consulate, which was a waste of time by the way to get the same info. They said they will have to keep the passport. I told them that we need it because every hotel in Europe requires passport as an ID for tourists.

On reaching Paris, we went to the Iceland Air supervisor staff at CDG airport (Terminal 1) and asked about our scenario. He said that as long as there is a Visa which is not cancelled we won't deny entry to the aircraft. And that was true, the Visitor visa was just fine. The airlines even inputted the number into their computer and it was fine.

_________

All in all this was an experience on how much disparity there is between what CIC tells you and what the Immigration officers care about.

All of the answers which say dont not travel without a PRTD and Visitor Visa are VOID.

My wife and I traveled without PR card (just with a COPR and a Visitor Visa) and had no problem. So people who are preaching wrong info about Visitor visa not a valid document should just stop spreading wrong info. Its only VOID if the immigration officer cancels it.

We asked our neighbors to check our mailbox, the PR Card arrived 2 days after we left, we asked them to Scan the documents and we printed it at our hotel outside Canada. Upon returning to Canada, we showed them the scan's and told them that we had no option. They were completely FINE with it. They further said that "the delays because of Canada post strike are not your fault ", (wife in context) while we were standing at the immigration booth at YEG airport.

___________________________________________

Details of round-trip to Edmonton for anyone who care's:

Edmonton to Milan via Iceland -> Reykjavík Airport : Immigration [stamp in to] Schengen zone, wife's passport got stamped here.

Paris to Edmonton via Iceland -> Reykjavík Airport : Immigration [stamp out of] Schengen zone, wife's passport got stamped here.
 

bellaluna

VIP Member
May 23, 2014
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^ That's very, very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Same as your wife, my IM-1 visa was canceled upon landing, but my multiple-entry TRV up to 2021 was not. So they really do allow this loophole.
 

Tri-Cities

Hero Member
Aug 10, 2015
237
12
Good for you...

But, in fact you're either a visitor or a PR, you cannot be both at the same time - nothing's gonna change that.

There was no canada post strike! Not even one day....

And since you feel like we shouldn't give wrong advise, maybe you shouldn't either. Some people are just lucky, some not so much. Having a copy of a brand new PR card can make a huge difference.

You said it yourself... it's one thing what person A tells you and what person B does. So the same situation can turn out totally different.
 

ttrajan

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Oct 14, 2013
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That is why they don,t cancel visit visa. They cancel only work permit visa. I heard earlier also some people traveled with visit visa without any problem.
 

bellaluna

VIP Member
May 23, 2014
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Tri-Cities said:
Good for you...

But, in fact you're either a visitor or a PR, you cannot be both at the same time - nothing's gonna change that.
In the case of the visitor visa, CBSA can just run up the UCI and see in their system that the traveler is already a Canadian PR, and that's what matters. It's true, one can't apply for a TRV after becoming a PR, but I still find it telling that if one acquired a valid visitor visa prior to becoming PR, it is not canceled automatically upon landing.

Still, I agree with you in the end, if anyone wants to follow this example, they should do so at their own risk.
 

ttrajan

Champion Member
Oct 14, 2013
2,236
49
Category........
AINP
Job Offer........
Yes
LANDED..........
15-08-2012
It is like visa exemption people are travelling without PR card or PRTD.
 

badpusacat

Hero Member
Jun 18, 2013
683
33
Category........
Visa Office......
London
NOC Code......
2147
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
FeDex-ed 26-06-13
Doc's Request.
15-10-2014/FeDex-ed 26-10
IELTS Request
included in the application
Med's Request
15-10-2014
Med's Done....
29-10-2014
Interview........
29-09-2014
Passport Req..
Nov 2014
VISA ISSUED...
Dec 2014
LANDED..........
July 2015
Tri-Cities said:
Good for you...

But, in fact you're either a visitor or a PR, you cannot be both at the same time - nothing's gonna change that.

There was no canada post strike! Not even one day....

And since you feel like we shouldn't give wrong advise, maybe you shouldn't either. Some people are just lucky, some not so much. Having a copy of a brand new PR card can make a huge difference.

You said it yourself... it's one thing what person A tells you and what person B does. So the same situation can turn out totally different.
I agree!
 

zardoz

VIP Member
Feb 2, 2013
13,298
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Canada
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
London
App. Filed.......
16-02-2013
VISA ISSUED...
31-07-2013
LANDED..........
09-11-2013
The issue is never how CBSA see you when you arrive at the port of entry but getting on the aircraft in the first place. It doesn't matter if the visa was physically cancelled, it's still void at the moment that you cease to be a "Foreign National".

If you can "con" the airline when checking in that you "appear" to have a visa, fine. However, regardless of your experience, a Permanent Resident is not eligible to apply for or hold a TRV.
 

Meganes

Full Member
Aug 6, 2015
28
1
tyrionLannister said:
Update on the whole scenario:

We did our trip, before we left, we went to ask about what should be done to the border officers at Edmonton International Airport (YEG).

They saw the Visitor visa and the PR IM-1 stamped (and cancelled) on the passport. They said that I should not cancel or postpone the trip because my wife would be fine with the visit visa. So we were feeling a bit better and we went anyway taking a risk and hoping when we come back it would be fine.

AND..

That is exactly what happened, we went to Italy and France. Before we went we had sent both the VAC and the embassy emails asking for advice for our case. They both said that they can make a PRTD in 2 days (by emails). I personally went to Rome's Canadian consulate, which was a waste of time by the way to get the same info. They said they will have to keep the passport. I told them that we need it because every hotel in Europe requires passport as an ID for tourists.

On reaching Paris, we went to the Iceland Air supervisor staff at CDG airport (Terminal 1) and asked about our scenario. He said that as long as there is a Visa which is not cancelled we won't deny entry to the aircraft. And that was true, the Visitor visa was just fine. The airlines even inputted the number into their computer and it was fine.

_________

All in all this was an experience on how much disparity there is between what CIC tells you and what the Immigration officers care about.

All of the answers which say dont not travel without a PRTD and Visitor Visa are VOID.

My wife and I traveled without PR card (just with a COPR and a Visitor Visa) and had no problem. So people who are preaching wrong info about Visitor visa not a valid document should just stop spreading wrong info. Its only VOID if the immigration officer cancels it.

We asked our neighbors to check our mailbox, the PR Card arrived 2 days after we left, we asked them to Scan the documents and we printed it at our hotel outside Canada. Upon returning to Canada, we showed them the scan's and told them that we had no option. They were completely FINE with it. They further said that "the delays because of Canada post strike are not your fault ", (wife in context) while we were standing at the immigration booth at YEG airport.

___________________________________________

Details of round-trip to Edmonton for anyone who care's:

Edmonton to Milan via Iceland -> Reykjavík Airport : Immigration [stamp in to] Schengen zone, wife's passport got stamped here.

Paris to Edmonton via Iceland -> Reykjavík Airport : Immigration [stamp out of] Schengen zone, wife's passport got stamped here.
Thanks for sharing this. I have a valid work visa. Does it also work? I have my flight next week and still no PR card :(
 

zardoz

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Feb 2, 2013
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Category........
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App. Filed.......
16-02-2013
VISA ISSUED...
31-07-2013
LANDED..........
09-11-2013
Meganes said:
Thanks for sharing this. I have a valid work visa. Does it also work? I have my flight next week and still no PR card :(
http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/email-broadcast-from-ircc-regarding-pr-travel-t463368.0.html;msg5611197#msg5611197

Do with that what you will...
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
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Meganes said:
Thanks for sharing this. I have a valid work visa. Does it also work? I have my flight next week and still no PR card :(
This query has been previously addressed in another topic, but there are some recent developments which may be pertinent.

As observations in other topics have alerted you, if you are a landed PR it would be risky to rely on the work visa for purposes of boarding a flight headed to Canada. It is NOT supposed to work. It is technically no longer valid.

The discussion linked by zardoz refers to further notice, from IRCC, that the pre-boarding flight rules for PRs are now being strictly enforced.

All Canadian PRs (with some exceptions, such as those who are U.S. citizens, some French citizens traveling from certain locations, among a small number of others) must now present a valid PR card or a PR Travel Document before being given clearance to board a flight headed to Canada.

This is a collateral effect from the full implementation of eTA and the IAPI system, which just took place November 10th, which means that no matter what Travel Documents a traveler presents (with some exceptions, such as for diplomats), the required Travel Document for that individual must be cleared by CBSA's IAPI system. This is done at check-in for the flight, not at the time of boarding itself.

If you are a Canadian PR, you do not have a "valid" work visa. It was cancelled or rendered void as of the moment you landed and became a PR (at least techncially, even if the paper itself was not stamped cancelled or void). Thus, technically your passport and/or work visa should not be cleared for boarding, as the airline should (assuming the system works as intended) get a no-board rather than a board response from the IAPI system. Apparently the system does not offer any explanation or alternatives, just "board" or "no-board."


Possibility of Airline Exercising Some Flexibility?

This is an unknown.

Whether the protocols allow airlines some flexibility in the event of a "no-board" IAPI response is not clear. The many notices and cautions to PRs about the implementation of strict enforcement typically caution that PRs MAY be denied boarding if they do not present a valid PR card or PR TD, not that they necessarily will be denied boarding. This suggests some flexibility and perhaps an airline may allow boarding despite the lack of a proper TD if the traveler's documents otherwise persuade the airline that the traveler should be allowed to board the flight. Perhaps the presentation of the work visa and a CoPR and explanation about recently landing and not yet having a PR card will work. BUT there is NO guarantee this will work, and indeed there is NO information from IRCC that overtly suggests this will work. So it would be risky, the risk being that the traveler is indeed DENIED boarding.

The possibility of some flexibility is also indicated in the Operational Manual ENF 15 "Obligations of Transporters" (linked below), since it states that "The CBSA maintains an advisory role, and the decision to deny boarding is the carrier's alone." I cannot say whether this is merely to immunize CBSA from claims for the cost of flights or is intended to allow the airlines flexibility to allow boarding notwithstanding a "no board" IAPI system response.


IRCC information online has clarified IAPI system implementation.

It turns out that the IAPI system was not in use prior to November 10th, but rather it was essentially turned on at midnight November 10, 2016. (It was supposed to be implemented years ago.)

See, for example, section 7 in ENF 15 "Obligatons of transporters," a pdf of the Operational Manual which can be reached by link at IRCC website for updates to Operational Bulletins and Operational Manual at http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/rss.asp

It is apparent that the system is designed to verify a particular Travel Document, including Travel Documents issued by governments other than Canada but connected to a Canadian immigration client. Thus, for example, for the FN (Foreign National) carrying a visa-exempt passport, to obtain a "board" response from the IAPI system, the system will verify that eTA has been issued for that individual AND passport; for other FNs with a work or visitor visa, the system will verify the validity of the visa. For a PR, the system will verify the validity of the PR card or PR TD. And so on.

Odds are high the system works like it is supposed to work, and for a landed PR the presentation of passport with a work visa will not generate a "board" response from the IAPI system, as the system should recognize the work permit is no longer valid. The airlines will get no explanation for why the IAPI system responded this way, unless there is a protocol for directly contacting CBSA and making a more or less special query (would NOT rely on this being available).

As I noted above, to my surprise (but in retrospect I should have been able to foresee this, since it leaves the burden, and any potential liability for costs of missing flights, squarely on the airlines, not on the Canadian government) the implementation of IAPI still leaves the airlines with full discretion to deny or allow passengers to board flights (there are probably other rules related to security risks, which more strictly limit the scope of an airline's discretion).

Perhaps the recently landed PR, particularly one booked on a return flight to Canada (as in clearly indicating the PR very recently just came from Canada) and one who can present documents like the CoPR and the work visa (even though technically no longer valid -- best to not pretend it is valid), and is good at explaining oneself, could persuade the airlines to allow boarding notwithstanding no PR card or PR TD. Personally I would NOT chance it. I do NOT suggest, let alone recommend chancing it. But there is some possibility it might work, in that at least the airlines do have, it appears, some discretion to allow boarding anyway.


Note: I realize some of this may seem inconsistent with previous cautions I have made regarding strict enforcement of the rules for PRs. It really is not inconsistent. Many, many aspects of how immigration related rules are applied in practice are subject to variations, to a range of possibilities, and I make a concerted effort to point out the potential variations and vagaries of how things work, to alert others of oft times overlooked risks or pitfalls, or to otherwise illuminate nuances. What an individual decides to do in his or her own case is very personal, a decision best made dependent on the specific facts and circumstances in that person's situation, with due consideration for what the rules are, how the rules are usually applied, and what can vary in how the rules are applied, including especially consideration given to what risks might be involved.
 

Meganes

Full Member
Aug 6, 2015
28
1
Just to share my experience: I traveled without PR card to Germany. For return, I showed my visa to the airline and at the PoE, the officer did not ask me even a single question. I gave her my passport and CoPR and added that I have landed recently. She was totally OK with them. I did not say anything about my PR card, but she added "So, you have not received your card, yet" and I said "Yes".
 

specialmary

Hero Member
Jun 18, 2012
376
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tyrionLannister said:
Hello folks,

I am a Canadian (Indian) citizen and my wife is Indian Passport holder.

We have a 2 week vacation planned (12 - 18th July) to Italy and France departing from Edmonton via Iceland as the 1st port of entry to Schengan zone. The following are the issues:

My wife arrived in Canada on 26th April via Edmonton airport and was told that she would get the PR card by mail within 6-8 weeks (59 days officially) but after lot of calling to CIC call center (after processing time had passed) we got to know that it has been dispatched on 24th of June (59 days exactly). It has been 13 days today (including weekends since then), today being 7th of July and we have still not got the PR for my wife.

My wife has a 10 year multiple entry visa as well is a new PR.

Before booking this ticket in May, I wanted to take some advise so I called Vancouver , Edmonton and CIC to know if it was ok to book a ticket. CIC and Vancouver both said I need to pursue a PRTD application at either Italian or French Canadian consulates at the destination, not in Canada. The Edmonton officer said that as long as my wife has a valid permit she would be fine, in this case its the Visitor Visa.

< I booked the tickets and got the Schengan visa from the Italian consulate >

Now the issue is that I don't know how long does a PRTD application take at Paris. We are in Paris only for 2 days and are returning from there via Iceland back to Edmonton. I had called the Vancouver and Edmonton airport second time to get more insight; now they say that I require PRTD application for my wife and the Visitor Visa is internally converted to a PR and she can't have both the statuses. She wont be allowed to board the aircraft back to Canada without the PR Card.

The PR TD application in Italy takes 4 weeks, we are only there in Europe for 16 days. I currently don't know if its viable to wait and see it arrives
I don't know what is the fastest way to get the PRTD from any other Schengan country either. I need something like a 1 day processing time to get in out of a consulate and on my way back if I can survive without changing the flight booking.

Side note:
PR Card are not trackable so if anyone is thinking they can find where it is, its impossible. I have tried talking to multiple Canada post supervisors and all they said that if they find the letter in Edmonton sorting facility, they would give me a call. Otherwise there is no way to locate how far it has reached or if its lost.

My flight is withing 3 days of this post.
I can only think of booking a flight to the US and either walk across the border or drive a private (non-public) vehicle across the border. as long as you have your passport and your CoPR this should pose no problem. Canada has been stupid about the eTA requirement, because it screws up permanent residents.
 

zardoz

VIP Member
Feb 2, 2013
13,298
2,167
Canada
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
London
App. Filed.......
16-02-2013
VISA ISSUED...
31-07-2013
LANDED..........
09-11-2013
specialmary said:
I can only think of booking a flight to the US and either walk across the border or drive a private (non-public) vehicle across the border. as long as you have your passport and your CoPR this should pose no problem. Canada has been stupid about the eTA requirement, because it screws up permanent residents.
Or it's completely deliberate in order to weed out a lot of those who are not in compliance with the residency obligation requirements.