Urgent COPR at land border?

[mi75]

You have been posting the same issue since March. If you send an application to renew your PR card back then, you probably should have received your renewed PR card by now. Why the wait?

I live in Europe and this is the first time I could get back to Canada. As I cannot submit a PR renewal from outside of Canada, I wasn't able to renewal it until now.

They only submit a reliability status when you're offered a job, which I was this time. Which put everything else in motion.

 

[armoured]

Thank you for the clarification about the expiry date! I wasn't 100% sure that is what it meant. So when my PR card is renewed, the COPR expiry date never changes, correct? Because I have already landed. Essentially the COPR does not expire since I have already landed previously 6 years ago, correct?

Correct, the COPR will never change. (Aside that it's possible at some point in future the form might change - but none of the info; a bit like ordering a new birth certificate, they could send you an extract from the registry - just the data in a new format - rather than sending you a copy of the original.)

Anything I mentioned to CFSU, essentially is mute because of what the security office in Ottawa said to them in the denial. I can mention to them in email that the expiry date on the COPR is the time required to land, but they can't do anything about it as Ottawa has the final say.

Yes, it's obvious you're dealing with bureaucratic tag - the 'hiring unit' (I don't know what CFSU is) and centralized HR or whatever it's called (security office I guess) are communicating partially.

This really comes down to what exactly 'central' wants and will accept. (We can kind of guess but sometimes their instructions aren't coming from same framework.)

I am trying to contact IRCC to see what can be done as well.

Worth trying although you may not be able to get through.

To provide a bit of background on what I understand:
-If your 'central office' in Ottawa will only accept a valid PR card, it's going to take some time.

The real underlying problem: IRCC in theory can confirm you are a PR. But if the military wants confirmation you are not just a PR but more than that - eg that you are in compliance with your residency obligation* - that is going to require someone at IRCC to make an analysis and decision (that you are in compliance because days accompanying your spouse abroad 'count' for residency obligation purposes).

And if so, that decision is not going to happen overnight.

*I'm kind of guessing here that's what is underlying their requirement, and it sort-of makes sense. Otherwise someone not resident in Canada but with PR status not revoked/renounced would still qualify. Technically someone in this situation would be / could be considered inadmissible and hiring them for military would be, ummm, not cool (this last not a technical term). Valid PR card is at least prima facie case the holder does not / did not have this issue as at date of issue.

 

[mi75]

Just a follow up, I went to the CBSA at the border again today. I was told multiple times by the agent and supervisor on duty, that the expiry date on the COPR is the date that you're required to land officially in Canada your first time, which I did in 2017. Once someone has a PR card, they are always a PR. (Which has been mentioned many times by the smart, helpful people on this site!)

The Supervisor even called the local IRCC to see if they could help in this situation. They confirmed the fact the COPR is a valid document and the expiry date only applies to someone who has to land in Canada by that date, which I did in 2017 officially.

The supervisor even mentioned at the border they have seen Record of Landing documents from 1977 and it is a valid travel document even when a PR card is expired.

I mentioned all this to my hiring office in Europe and to let the security office in Ottawa know that the document isn't expired. That's all I can do at this moment.

The border was very helpful with everything. Very thankful for that.

Now I just have to wait to hear back about my urgent PR card renewal.

At least this might help people in the future if they need a copy of their COPR at a land border.

About to take off back to Europe.

Thank you for everyone's help!

 

[armoured]

Once someone has a PR card, they are always a PR.

True, except in cases where it's revoked or renounced, but it is not a common thing.

Someone who is a PR, though, can be out of compliance with the residency obligation, not living in Canada, and ... well, they could lose it easily.

Record of Landing documents from 1977 and it is a valid travel document even when a PR card is expired.

Not exactly - neither the PR card nor the record of landing is a travel document. Both can serve as identification of sorts, though.

Anyway, good luck, hope it works out for you.

 

[canuck78]

Just a follow up, I went to the CBSA at the border again today. I was told multiple times by the agent and supervisor on duty, that the expiry date on the COPR is the date that you're required to land officially in Canada your first time, which I did in 2017. Once someone has a PR card, they are always a PR. (Which has been mentioned many times by the smart, helpful people on this site!)

The Supervisor even called the local IRCC to see if they could help in this situation. They confirmed the fact the COPR is a valid document and the expiry date only applies to someone who has to land in Canada by that date, which I did in 2017 officially.

The supervisor even mentioned at the border they have seen Record of Landing documents from 1977 and it is a valid travel document even when a PR card is expired.

I mentioned all this to my hiring office in Europe and to let the security office in Ottawa know that the document isn't expired. That's all I can do at this moment.

The border was very helpful with everything. Very thankful for that.

Now I just have to wait to hear back about my urgent PR card renewal.

At least this might help people in the future if they need a copy of their COPR at a land border.

About to take off back to Europe.

Thank you for everyone's help!

Think there is a good chance that COPR may only be used as proof of being a PR while you wait for your 1st PR card to arrive or might be able to be used for the 1st year which can be possible to apply for a health card in at least certain provinces. A COPR is only a valid travel document for land borders and not in general. It also doesn’t confirm your current status as a PR. Assume there is a requirement that the military only hire PRs or citizens so it would be very embarrassing and potentially quite dangerous to accept an old COPR as proof of PR status because you could have lost PR status during the period since landing. Not the military but think you are going to keep running into the same issue which is that old COPR doesn’t confirm that you are a PR at the moment. Only time will tell.

 

[mi75]

Does anyone have a link or confirmation from the IRCC or any Canadian government site, that says the expiry date on the COPR only applies to when you need to first land in Canada?

They have asked me to provide proof of this to submit to security in Ottawa. I have wrote to IRCC and still awaiting response.

I know it's true, from people on this site and of course my own experience at the land border last week, told by the CBSA agents and supervisor. My expiry date on my COPR is the same expiry date as my passport at the time of my landing.

Any help would be appreciated. Thank you very much.

 

[scylla]

Does anyone have a link or confirmation from the IRCC or any Canadian government site, that says the expiry date on the COPR only applies to when you need to first land in Canada?

They have asked me to provide proof of this to submit to security in Ottawa. I have wrote to IRCC and still awaiting response.

I know it's true, from people on this site and of course my own experience at the land border last week, told by the CBSA agents and supervisor. My expiry date on my COPR is the same expiry date as my passport at the time of my landing.

Any help would be appreciated. Thank you very much.

I'm not sure I would really say that the expiry date on the COPR only applies when you need to first land in Canada. Rather, once the COPR expiry date is reached (or one someone lands and becomes a PR), the COPR is simply no longer valid. As you've alluded to in your post, the COPR is mainly just a landing document that allows someone to travel to Canada and become a PR for the first time. It doesn't prove someone has valid PR status. The expiry date on the COPR is normally either one year after the medical or matches the expiry date on a person's passport, whichever is sooner.

I'm not sure what you asked in your question to IRCC. However generally speaking, they just quote back basics or will point you to a link on the website. It will likely also take a while for them to respond. So just be prepared that their response may not be too helpful.

I'm unfortunately not aware of any IRCC web sites that go into this into any detail. Maybe others are.

 

[canuck78]

Does anyone have a link or confirmation from the IRCC or any Canadian government site, that says the expiry date on the COPR only applies to when you need to first land in Canada?

They have asked me to provide proof of this to submit to security in Ottawa. I have wrote to IRCC and still awaiting response.

I know it's true, from people on this site and of course my own experience at the land border last week, told by the CBSA agents and supervisor. My expiry date on my COPR is the same expiry date as my passport at the time of my landing.

Any help would be appreciated. Thank you very much.

Still confused. Doesn’t the security check need to verify that you are a PR or citizen? Have they said they will accept COPR from when you first landed. I’m actually surprised that the expiry date is 2022. As already indicated it is normally within less than a year of when you receive it.

 

[armoured]

Does anyone have a link or confirmation from the IRCC or any Canadian government site, that says the expiry date on the COPR only applies to when you need to first land in Canada?

They have asked me to provide proof of this to submit to security in Ottawa. I have wrote to IRCC and still awaiting response.

I know it's true, from people on this site and of course my own experience at the land border last week, told by the CBSA agents and supervisor. My expiry date on my COPR is the same expiry date as my passport at the time of my landing.

Any help would be appreciated. Thank you very much.

This govt site sort of gets at it, that the copr is issued to become a pr and is confirmation of pr status until you receive pr card. I don't know of it will convince them.

You could also show your visa with same expiry date of you had one (or note how this site refers to them being issued with same date).

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/immigrate-canada/express-entry/application-approved.html

I'm sure there are other sites like the IRcc operational guidelines but I don't have those to hand

 

[armoured]

Does anyone have a link or confirmation from the IRCC or any Canadian government site, that says the expiry date on the COPR only applies to when you need to first land in Canada?

They have asked me to provide proof of this to submit to security in Ottawa. I have wrote to IRCC and still awaiting response.

I know it's true, from people on this site and of course my own experience at the land border last week, told by the CBSA agents and supervisor. My expiry date on my COPR is the same expiry date as my passport at the time of my landing.

Any help would be appreciated. Thank you very much.

I found a simple link that states in pretty clear language what the COPR is. In most respects, it is basically an updated record of landing, except that unlike the record of landing, it's not intended to be used as ID on an ongoing basis.

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/immigration-category-confirmation-permanent-residence-copr.html

When an immigrant is approved for permanent residence in Canada, they receive a Confirmation of Permanent Residence document. An immigration officer at the port of entry or a CIC office signs and dates this document when permanent residence is finally granted. This document is used by permanent residents to show to provincial and territorial organizations in order to access services.

Now the comments above are technically correct that a COPR does not show that one IS a PR on any arbitrary date - because technically PR status could have been revoked afterwards. I say 'technically' because that is also true for someone bearing a valid PR card, and the PR status could - technically - have been revoked any day after it was issued.

In my view, the difference is - therefore - that with a PR card, it's simply presumed that the valid PR card is recent enough that the bearer is still a PR, and that the permanent resident was (relatively recently) still in compliance wiht the residency obligation (and therefore relatively low risk of being deemed inadmissible).

Now, I don't know if this helps you. The people you're dealing with clearly don't have entirely up to date information, nor do they know how to find out exactly what they're looking for, simple confirmation you are still a PR.

[We could have a side note or argument that it remains, in my view, a major gap in what the government does/can provide for PRs - confirmation when needed they are still "PRs in good standing." But, to use the cliché, it is what it is, and all you can do is try.]

So I think some of the comments in this thread miss the point: what we know usually to be true, what (from that) the military 'should' require, what they actually require (when they don't actually know), and what you can get and provide are all distinct things.

I'd summarize this way:
1) COPR actually IS a reasonable 'identification' document or proof that you were - as of the date you landed - a PR. Relatively few PRs lose that status.
2) The expired PR card is further evidence that you were a PR - and again, not so many lose that status.
3) You have copies of your application for a new PR card, along with the evidence - provided with that app - that you have been residing with your spouse abroad, AS PERMITTED BY and provided for by the immigration law. [I understood your spouse is a CAF member serving abroad, and if so, that should serve as presumptive evidence - if they know you're living together abroad - that you are also in compliance with the residency obligation.

[It's actually a bit strong than that since time abroad with a spouse who is a crown servant - including military - also counts toward citizenship. This is NOT a status that is open to question, generally: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/canadian-citizenship/grant/residence/calculate-physical-presence/calculating-residence-physical-presence-certain-family-members-canadian-citizen-permanent-resident-living-abroad.html ].

4) You can also show them references to government documents and manuals and the immigration law, which probably won't convince them to decide (they're not immgiration specialists), but might convince them to keep the file 'alive' for the time being.

The reality is - based on my experience with bureaucrats - you're probably going to keep putting forward the evidence you can in the hope that they'll not cancel the file/your application and both you and the hiring people will hope that the PR card or something else comes through to let them do what they want. Maybe they'll find some way to let you do this work or some related work on some nebulous temporary basis. Maybe they'll find someone senior who can override (temporarily) the process for a bit, or 'pending receipt of PR card.' Maybe some confirmation will come quicker than you expect, or somebody will decide the acknowledgement of receipt or some other doc will be enough for a bit.

Problem is, of course, we have no idea how long the PR card might actually take.

Good luck.

 

[canuck78]

I found a simple link that states in pretty clear language what the COPR is. In most respects, it is basically an updated record of landing, except that unlike the record of landing, it's not intended to be used as ID on an ongoing basis.

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/immigration-category-confirmation-permanent-residence-copr.html



Now the comments above are technically correct that a COPR does not show that one IS a PR on any arbitrary date - because technically PR status could have been revoked afterwards. I say 'technically' because that is also true for someone bearing a valid PR card, and the PR status could - technically - have been revoked any day after it was issued.

In my view, the difference is - therefore - that with a PR card, it's simply presumed that the valid PR card is recent enough that the bearer is still a PR, and that the permanent resident was (relatively recently) still in compliance wiht the residency obligation (and therefore relatively low risk of being deemed inadmissible).

Now, I don't know if this helps you. The people you're dealing with clearly don't have entirely up to date information, nor do they know how to find out exactly what they're looking for, simple confirmation you are still a PR.

[We could have a side note or argument that it remains, in my view, a major gap in what the government does/can provide for PRs - confirmation when needed they are still "PRs in good standing." But, to use the cliché, it is what it is, and all you can do is try.]

So I think some of the comments in this thread miss the point: what we know usually to be true, what (from that) the military 'should' require, what they actually require (when they don't actually know), and what you can get and provide are all distinct things.

I'd summarize this way:
1) COPR actually IS a reasonable 'identification' document or proof that you were - as of the date you landed - a PR. Relatively few PRs lose that status.
2) The expired PR card is further evidence that you were a PR - and again, not so many lose that status.
3) You have copies of your application for a new PR card, along with the evidence - provided with that app - that you have been residing with your spouse abroad, AS PERMITTED BY and provided for by the immigration law. [I understood your spouse is a CAF member serving abroad, and if so, that should serve as presumptive evidence - if they know you're living together abroad - that you are also in compliance with the residency obligation.

[It's actually a bit strong than that since time abroad with a spouse who is a crown servant - including military - also counts toward citizenship. This is NOT a status that is open to question, generally: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/canadian-citizenship/grant/residence/calculate-physical-presence/calculating-residence-physical-presence-certain-family-members-canadian-citizen-permanent-resident-living-abroad.html ].

4) You can also show them references to government documents and manuals and the immigration law, which probably won't convince them to decide (they're not immgiration specialists), but might convince them to keep the file 'alive' for the time being.

The reality is - based on my experience with bureaucrats - you're probably going to keep putting forward the evidence you can in the hope that they'll not cancel the file/your application and both you and the hiring people will hope that the PR card or something else comes through to let them do what they want. Maybe they'll find some way to let you do this work or some related work on some nebulous temporary basis. Maybe they'll find someone senior who can override (temporarily) the process for a bit, or 'pending receipt of PR card.' Maybe some confirmation will come quicker than you expect, or somebody will decide the acknowledgement of receipt or some other doc will be enough for a bit.

Problem is, of course, we have no idea how long the PR card might actually take.

Good luck.

COPR isn’t used by most government agencies as proof that you are currently a PR. Some allow you to use it up to a year after your landing date. Only exception is land border but they have access to other information on the spot that should also help them determine whether you are a PR. We also don’t have all the details surrounding the spouses work so it’s unclear whether time abroad with the spouse will count towards citizenship.

 

[armoured]

COPR isn’t used by most government agencies as proof that you are currently a PR. Some allow you to use it up to a year after your landing date. Only exception is land border but they have access to other information on the spot that should also help them determine whether you are a PR.

Yes, thank you for repeating that point. Again. We are aware of it.

The request from the OP is whether info can be provided that would show the other side (military) that the COPR can be used as evidence of status.

The request was not to repeat, again, why it might not be accepted - we are all aware of that.

But what I have shown - above - is that in some circumstances, it IS accepted as evidence of status as a PR. I'd also note that since CBSA both admitted him AND printed a new copy of his COPR, that is a strong prima facie case that the individual remains a PR 'in good standing', or at least they neither rejected him at the border, served him a 44(1), suggested he renounce, etc.

And before you state it: I'm aware that none of this constitute the proof that he remains a PR that his employer would ideally want. See the point, again, about what the request consists of.

We also don’t have all the details surrounding the spouses work so it’s unclear whether time abroad with the spouse will count towards citizenship.

OP stated the spouse was 'posted' to Europe and is with the military. While it's conceivable would not count, base assumption that this is a posting with the Canadian military is sound. Or is there some more detail you'd like, such as a copy of the posting orders? Or do you think there's some other military this Canadian citizen is serving with?

 

[canuck78]

Yes, thank you for repeating that point. Again. We are aware of it.

The request from the OP is whether info can be provided that would show the other side (military) that the COPR can be used as evidence of status.

The request was not to repeat, again, why it might not be accepted - we are all aware of that.

But what I have shown - above - is that in some circumstances, it IS accepted as evidence of status as a PR. I'd also note that since CBSA both admitted him AND printed a new copy of his COPR, that is a strong prima facie case that the individual remains a PR 'in good standing', or at least they neither rejected him at the border, served him a 44(1), suggested he renounce, etc.

And before you state it: I'm aware that none of this constitute the proof that he remains a PR that his employer would ideally want. See the point, again, about what the request consists of.



OP stated the spouse was 'posted' to Europe and is with the military. While it's conceivable would not count, base assumption that this is a posting with the Canadian military is sound. Or is there some more detail you'd like, such as a copy of the posting orders? Or do you think there's some other military this Canadian citizen is serving with?

Many don’t go into details and use general terms about being posted by the military when actually other organizations like NATO, UN, etc. CBSA providing a copy of COPR just means they have provided a copy of documentation. Not the same as VOS.