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Urgent advise needed: PRTD complications

WinScot

Member
Oct 23, 2016
18
0
Hi All,

I have recently applied for PRTD, for which I also reported the 1-year consultancy contract abroad, in which I worked for a canadian non-profit company abroad.

Then I received this:

"I also noted that you were unemployed immediately before and after you signed the contract with XXXX and that you worked for different employers shortly before and after having worked for XXXX, i.e. you were not an XXXX employee but you were hired by XXXX specifically for the purposes of this consultancy contract. Therefore, it appears that you were not an employee of a Canadian company who was assigned for a temporary contract outside Canada. Thus, based on the information on your file, I am not satisfied that you comply with the requirements described under R61(3)"

But CIC manual also says "confirmation that you are a full-time employee of the “Canadian business (includes non-profits)” working
abroad on a full-time basis as a term of your employment, or that you are on contract
working abroad on a full-time basis as a term of your contract
; and"

And upon completion of the assignment my contract was not extended due to funding limitations. But that was beyond my control.

What would you suggest? They gave me 30 days to respond:

"I would like to provide you with the opportunity to respond to this information. You will have 30 days from the date of this letter to submit additional information in this regard" -- which gives me some hope.

How should I respond? How to justify my overssees assignement? And how to pitch the fact that I didnot get extended?

Thank you!

VV
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
95,904
22,152
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
Based on what we've seen here, CIC only allows you to count time spent working outside of Canada towards RO if you were first hired for a role within Canada and then at a later time transferred to a role outside of Canada. If you were hired for the role outside of Canada directly, based on what we'e seen here, CIC doesn't allow you to count the time So unfortunately what you're experiencing aligns to how we have consistently seen CIC interpret residency requirement rules for permanent residency.

If you exclude the time you've spent outside of Canada, how many residency days do you have over the last five years?

May be time to hire a lawyer to assist you.
 

WinScot

Member
Oct 23, 2016
18
0
Hi. Thanks a lot.

Without this consultancy, the total days physically being in Canada would be 510 days. With this counted, it would be over 720, as required.

But I applied for the job while in Canada and at the time of the conract signing, I happened to be in outside in the country where the assignement took place. I was going to get extended but due to funding cuts -- was not.

After the assignment I immediately returned to Canada and volunteered with them for some time. They brought me to an interview for another job but I didn't get hired either. But I did spend the time in Canada till my PR Card expired (almost a year).

CIC doesn't provide this in any of the instructions. How can they do that based on weak instructions?

That said, what are the chances of getting a PR card again if I apply from scratch? Through the Express entry I mean.

Thanks a lot!

VV
 

Leon

VIP Member
Jun 13, 2008
21,950
1,322
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
WinScot said:
Hi. Thanks a lot.

Without this consultancy, the total days physically being in Canada would be 510 days. With this counted, it would be over 720, as required.

But I applied for the job while in Canada and at the time of the conract signing, I happened to be in outside in the country where the assignement took place. I was going to get extended but due to funding cuts -- was not.

After the assignment I immediately returned to Canada and volunteered with them for some time. They brought me to an interview for another job but I didn't get hired either. But I did spend the time in Canada till my PR Card expired (almost a year).

CIC doesn't provide this in any of the instructions. How can they do that based on weak instructions?

That said, what are the chances of getting a PR card again if I apply from scratch? Through the Express entry I mean.

Thanks a lot!

VV
It's 730 that is required. You can respond to them within the 30 days with printouts from whatever you have found on the website that just says Canadian employer and admit that you did not work for company XXXX before you were hired for the overseas assignment as they already know that but that you also did not know that was a requirement as you haven't found that anywhere on their website. I'm not saying it will work but it's worth a try.

If they refuse your arguments and revoke your PR, you have the same chance as anybody else applying for express entry.
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
95,904
22,152
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
The issues that you're facing is that you don't meet one of the conditions for counting this time towards RO. The assignment abroad is supposed to be temporary in nature which means you either need to have worked for that employer in Canada before you were sent abroad or afterwords. You meet neither of these conditions. So while as Leon has said, you can try arguing otherwise, the odds are not in your favour of succeeding.

The text below is taken from the same source you quoted:

You must provide a letter signed by an official of the business that confirms:

- that you will continue working for the employer in Canada after your assignment ends

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/guides/5529ETOC.asp
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
How to respond to the visa office invitation to supplement your PR TD application:

You are being given an opportunity not seen much in forums such as this. Most reports, by a huge margin, indicate the application for a PR TD is typically denied if the applicant fails to provide sufficient information and documentation to grant the PR TD, and then it is up to the PR to appeal that decision and supplement the proof in the appeal. You are being given an opportunity to supplement what you submitted with additional proof.

How to respond, including whether or not to respond to this, is a bit complicated in your situation. I tend to agree with scylla's initial response, that perhaps it is time to obtain the assistance of a lawyer. Problem is, obviously, time is of the essence and it is not as if a lawyer's assistance is so readily available.

I also concur in the observations by Leon. Regarding this, I assume that there is a typo in your post:

WinScot said:
Without this consultancy, the total days physically being in Canada would be 510 days. With this counted, it would be over 720, as required.
I assume you meant "it would be over 730." (A year added to the 510 would make it 875 days total.)

Mostly I concur that you could respond to the request within the time allowed and include, as Leon suggests, essentially an explanation which amounts to making an H&C argument in large part based on you were making a concerted effort to settle in Canada and that you took the consultant-position in good faith belief that it would mean you were complying with the PR Residency Obligation while at the same time helping you to obtain experience which would assist your efforts to obtain a position in Canada. BUT, of course, only if and to the extent this is the truth.

510 days actual presence in Canada is not close to compliance, but neither is it all that far short of compliance -- that is, it may be within a range which, with a credible explanation showing you deserve to keep PR status, you might be issued a PR TD on H&C grounds and allowed to keep your PR status. NO guarantees. Indeed, the opposite. Probably a tough case to make but it appears this is well within the range of possible.



Some more in-depth observations, including some background:

(Offering some editorial observations beyond the scope of the query posed, which, I hope, helps illuminate some of the context for this and other similar situations.)

During Harper's reign as PM, and in particular while Jason Kenney was Minister of CIC (and to some extent also while Chris Alexander and Diane Finley were Ministers during the years of Conservative government), CIC increasingly implemented stricter enforcement of PR related rules, including more thorough and stricter scrutiny of compliance with the Residency Obligation for PRs. As such, between 2008 and 2015, CIC more strictly interpreted and applied the exception to the PR RO requirement which was allowed those PRs who were abroad in the employ of a Canadian business.

This exception is prescribed by statute; in particular Section 28(1)(a)(iii) in the IRPA provides that time counts toward compliance with the PR RO for time the PR is "outside Canada employed on a full-time basis by a Canadian business."

That alone is a rather broad provision. The exception is further governed by Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulation 61(1) to 61(3), clarifying what qualifies as a Canadian business and clarifies, per Regulation 61(3), what "employed on a full-time basis" means. A key term in the regulation is the word "assigned".

It is the latter which was the focus of a more strict interpretation and application over the course time Finley, Kenney, and Alexander were Ministers of CIC, reflected in scores of IAD decisions and some Federal Court decisions, and eventually in the Operationals Manual ENF-23 (while Alexander was Minister, in January 2015) in which section 6.5 was revised to include additional criteria for PRs to meet the RO while working abroad.

For IRPA section 28 see http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/page-7.html#h-19
For Regulation 61, see http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-227/page-12.html#h-29


"Assigned" might be seen, in the parlance of lay persons, non-lawyers, and those not otherwise well-informed about how CIC/IRCC approaches things, as a loaded term. While the IAD and Federal Court decisions are not so direct or descriptive, in practical terms what CIC (and now IRCC) has done is to impose a very strict interpretation of what "assigned" to a position outside Canada means, and it is literally now interpreted to mean the individual is employed for a Canadian business then assigned, temporarily, to a position abroad, and requiring further evidence it is a temporary assignment in the form of verification the PR was to return to Canada still in the employ of the Canadian business after the assignment is concluded.

To my view, whether or not this is a fair interpretation and application of the statute (Section 28(1)(a)(iii) in IRPA) might be challenged, but it would be difficult to succeed in making this challenge. CIC/IRCC are due a great deal of latitude and discretion in how statutory provisions are interpreted and applied.

The approach with more likelihood of success (but very much depending on the particulars in the individual case, and with NO guarantee of probable success let alone a guarantee of actual success), is the one suggested by Leon, which again essentially would be to make an alternative H&C argument that you believed your employment qualified for the exception and otherwise documenting the extent to which you have made a diligent effort to fully settle and live in Canada (and thus deserve H&C relief to allow you to keep PR status).

The current government appears to be far more immigrant-friendly, so as long as it appears you really are trying to settle permanently in Canada, there is perhaps a fair chance of succeeding with this argument.

Even if the PR TD application is denied, if you have been in Canada within the previous year you should be able to appeal and during the appeal obtain a special PR TD allowing you to return to Canada while the appeal is pending. If you do this, and stay in Canada pending the appeal, that too would improve your chances of successfully retaining your PR status.

That is a long process. If you are very confident of your qualifications for Express Entry, you might respond as Leon suggested, make your best H&C case, but if that fails, let it go and once you have formally lost PR status, then pursue PR anew via Express Entry. This would be, probably, a gamble. As Leon noted, you would effectively be in the position of any other Foreign National applying for Express Entry.



Lack of fair communication:

The reality has been that CIC (and this continues with IRCC) is a very poor communicator.

scylla cites and links the current PR TD application guide which does inform PRs about the more or less strict interpretation of what qualifies as assigned abroad. This is a somewhat recent change in that guide. I have not followed the guide closely, so I am not sure that this was part of the changes to the guide implemented just this past July, but I suspect that is when information about the exception for employment outside Canada was revised to specifically provide documentation from the employer that "you will continue working for the employer in Canada after your assignment ends."

This is still NOT reflected in the guide for PR card applicants, for example.

For a long, long time, CIC referred to Appendix A in the PR card application guide as the primary source, for PRs, for information about the PR Residency Obligation.

see http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/guides/5445ETOC.asp#appendixA

In particular, there is still no similar statement, in the Appendix A: Residency Obligation, indicating that qualifying for the employed abroad credit that qualifying employment depends on the PR continuing to work for the employer in Canada when the assignment abroad is terminated, let alone that obtaining such credit requires submitting proof of this.


I do not know . . . I cannot with certainty say . . . but I have the strong sense that this is one of those areas in which CIC/IRCC deliberately leaves open a wide path of discretion so that Canada can allow those PRs it perceives as deserving to keep PR status to keep PR status, and be more or less strict toward those who are not perceived to deserve retaining PR status.

Obviously, who deserves to keep PR status is not a formal criteria, and if it was it would be struck down as too vague. But, my sense is that it is almost just as obvious that this is what underlies the approach CIC/IRCC takes in assessing many H&C cases (this is about H&C in the context of PR RO compliance, which is very different from other contexts in which H&C relief may be available).

And in the vein of who deserves to keep PR status, my further sense is that a big factor is whether or not, or to what extent, the PR has been and is making a concerted effort to actually settle in Canada, to live and work in Canada, and who is likely to actually return to and stay in Canada.

Which does not offer the individual PR much guidance beyond the formality of the PR RO itself, that the PR spend at least 730 days in Canada within any and every five year period of time.

In any event, there is probably still some leeway being allowed some PRs who did indeed reasonably rely on an assignment abroad but which employment does not meet the strict interpretation that has been employed for the last four or more years.


Back to the OP's situation in particular:

As referenced, other factors will loom large in how this goes if the OP responds and submits what amounts to an H&C case based on reasonably relying on credit for the assignment abroad. Total amount of time actually in Canada is a big factor. Any other continuing ties to Canada would be a big factor. How recently the OP was in Canada is a big factor. Probably best to document actual efforts to obtain employment in Canada. Probably best to document future plans to work and live in Canada. And so on.

Thus, how it goes is likely to vary considerably on how much such factors favour the OP versus the extent they reflect minimal ties or commitment to a life in Canada.

Probably not an easy H&C case to make in any event. But probably worth the effort assuming the OP has indeed been making an effort to settle in Canada.
 

WinScot

Member
Oct 23, 2016
18
0
Dpenabil! You are my hero! The level of detail blew my mind....

I am working on making a good case right now. It would be great if I could send it to you upon completion and maybe you could suggest some tweaks if possible. It seems to me you can add value to what I will provide as my argumentation. Would that be possible....
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
WinScot said:
Dpenabil! You are my hero! The level of detail blew my mind....

I am working on making a good case right now. It would be great if I could send it to you upon completion and maybe you could suggest some tweaks if possible. It seems to me you can add value to what I will provide as my argumentation. Would that be possible....
I am not an expert. I am not qualified to offer personal advice.

I offered about as much detail as I can above. Applying this to your particular situation is up to you, although if it is possible to obtain the assistance or advice of a Canadian immigration lawyer, that would be a good idea.

Main thing is to make the best case you can, and hope for the best.

If you are still denied, and if you have been in Canada within the preceding year (I think this is as of the date you made the application for the PR TD but I am not sure of that), you can then apply for a special PR TD to travel to Canada pending the appeal. If you are serious about retaining PR status, do that, come to Canada, stay in Canada, get whatever work you can in Canada, and try to get a lawyer to help in the appeal.


In the meantime, you can find more information about making the H&C case in the Operational Manual ENF 23 -- Loss of Permanent Resident Status. It is a pdf and will not link here, but you can get to it through the IRCC website's lists and links to publications. See http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/index.asp and then expand Enforcement (ENF), and click on the link to ENF 23 -- Loss of Permanent Resident Status. Review Section 7.7 beginning on page 26, especially the discussion of "Factors for consideration" beginning on page 28.

Beyond that, if you have the time and ability to do some more extensive research, you can research IAD decisions in which H&C considerations are addressed in PR RO compliance determinations. See http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/irb/ and work on developing queries which will narrow search results to PR RO compliance cases.

The latter is not easy, and thus especially not easy for a novice, but anyone familiar with search engine methodology should be able to figure out how to do this at least somewhat efficiently . . . problem is that in this database it is difficult to identify search terms which will generate results including the relevant cases without otherwise resulting in a huge number of additional, not so relevant cases. And then there is the problem of discerning what is useful from the relevant results. This can get bogged down in a huge amount of work just to figure out how to effectively read the decisions (there are many pitfalls in trying to glean useful information from such raw sources, ranging from the difficulty of wading through huge amounts of information, and from that identifying and understanding the pertinent parts, to the tendency to seize on and parse certain language in such decisions, and from that extrapolate conclusions which are often out of context if not outright erroneous). So this is not a worthwhile endeavor for many if not most. It is usually better left for lawyers to do. (Lawyers often do not know that much about how to proceed in a specific case and will need to do this sort of research for the client's case . . . but the lawyer should at least be well-familiar with the general principles involved and better prepared to read the relevant information and reach relevant and accurate conclusions about how to apply that information to the individual case).
 

WinScot

Member
Oct 23, 2016
18
0
Hi dpenabill and others. Thanks a lot for your support. It matters!

Here are some details:

Sep 2013-April 2014 in Canada worked for CIBC Downtown Toronto. Applied for the oversees job wile here. Records exist.
Was oversees when agency XXX said they are hiring me. I agreeds and signed June 2014.
Assignment started July 2014 - June 2015. Did not get extended. I returned to Canada in August 2015. Was there till June 11, 2016. Worked for BMO Capital Markets. Came back to this foreign country coz my dad passed away. Applied for PRTF since PR was expired in April 2016.

And now this challenge. :mad: :'( :-X

Some more facts:

Paid all taxes in time. No crime. Applied for family sponsorship. Approved. Sent to visa office.

Contacted a VISAPLACE lawyer back in 2014. They reviewed contrcts said it is OK to go. Records exist.

Called CIC many times they said OK to go.

In other words I did make efforts in advance to see if I am OK to go...