Understanding social settlement (communities)

[hamgha]

I have checked this forum several times to see how the social life is. I noticed a lot of people mention communities per origin country (Indian community, pakistani community etc...). Why is that? Doesn't that make integration in the multicultural society of Canada harder? Personally I'm not very concerned whether people of my country of origin live nearby otherwise I would've just stayed in my home country etc... but that's just my personal opinion after all. Would love to hear various inputs.

 

[RookieMistake]

I fully agree with you, hamgha.

However, we can try to understand why this might be the case:

• It takes effort to come out of your comfort zone. Esp when you're new to a place and you may feel vulnerable - it's easier and comforting to mix with someone of your ethnic background or region.
  
• Infact, I've seen so many housing ads esp on kijiji and Craigslist (not on PadMapper or viewit etc) mentioning that they prefer Indian (infact down to specific regions like Gujarati or Punjabi etc). Have seen similar ads seeking tenants of a specific Asian community like China, Korea etc. We can debate all day long about it's legality and discrimination but the fact remains people "prefer" their own. Maybe not because they're xenophobic or a bigot but simply because to them it's easier to communicate and live with one of their "own". There's less to learn (or unlearn) when sharing a place with someone of you're own "background". Food habits comes to mind first.
• It (integrating or socialising) may not be one of the goals of the person immigrating - some would not consider this a priority "P1 issue". In fact it may not even lie anywhere in the list of priorities. To them it may be nothing more than an eventuality - if it happens okay if it doesn't don't sweat over it.
• I personally know so many people whose first ever trip to a land beyond their own was Canada. Forget socializing - they find it unsettling/unnerving talking to "Canadians/foreigners" (with they themselves forgetting they are the "foreigners") They go on to choose even bankers and appointments with someone who speaks their language. This is daunting esp if you have language barrier, accent issues, cultural barrier, you're not confident or you've not travelled so much. Not trying to extract humour but this is just a personal anecdote.
• This also may be also an age issue - seniors esp would not have much of a chance to mingle with other people that often.
• Many (if not most immigrants, esp from third world countries, have economic goals to fulfil - job, house, car, school, bank balance - basically upward mobility. From many of the posts like "where to move in Canada", "what's the weather like in Canada", "will i get a job", "which city is best to live" etc it shows that people are mostly eager to just move from their country to Canada. They might see Canada more like a tool, a means to an end. Integration never quite comes to their mind. Yes integrate within your community in Canada and help others come over but The integration part stops there.

Some if not many or most may move out of their circles and socialize with people of other ethnic, religious or regional background maybe in their workplace or building or gym or a mutual interest or hobby or bar or party or wherever.

For some the eventual shift may happen sooner or later. For others it may never happen - either because it was never their intended goal in the first place or it never worked out even if they tried or there may be other reasons. Frankly, There are many variables in such (complex) social interactions. And you'll see similar behaviour among others in animal kingdom too. Interaction and social structures among great apes are not much different than ours for e.g.

Though you and I may agree it's better to stay at home if you're not looking socialize beyond your own or to actually be a part of Canada but We are all not the same in this world.

I think Everyone has different goals wrt immigration and I don't think I have a brush big enough to paint them all with the same one.

AFAIK There's no right or wrong in this.

Would love to hear yours and others take on this.

 

[hamgha]

Indeed, there's no right or wrong in this. The thing that is concerning me personally is that well I'm also from a third world country (Middle East) so what's worrying me like you said here

I fully agree with you, hamgha.

• Infact, I've seen so many housing ads esp on kijiji and Craigslist (not on PadMapper or viewit etc) mentioning that they prefer Indian (infact down to specific regions like Gujarati or Punjabi etc). Have seen similar ads seeking tenants of a specific Asian community like China, Korea etc. We can debate all day long about it's legality and discrimination but the fact remains people "prefer" their own. Maybe not because they're xenophobic or a bigot but simply because to them it's easier to communicate and live with one of their "own". There's less to learn (or unlearn) when sharing a place with someone of you're own "background". Food habits comes to mind first.

It will already be hard for me to move to a different country and be faced with the potential hardships of being an immigrant, but add to it being "rejected" by other immigrants for not being of the right country/ethnicity is worrisome. Part of the whole experience of immigration is adapting to the country in my opinion and not making it and its population adapt to you. I think due to my background (international school and living among people from all around the world all my life) I find it difficult to see the other's point of view.

One of the main reasons I'm asking this is that hopefully if I do end up moving, I'll understand better what people who prefer sticking to their community are thinking of and what worries them.
The part about Canada being a means to end is absolutely true but it shouldn't be the only one especially for the future of the children. This separation into "group" can lead to more separations down the line. And instead of having a huge melting pot of different cultures and backgrounds can end up turning into clusters each "dealing with their own" (I'm thinking of my future children when it comes to that)

On another note, I haven't moved yet so I don't really know how distant from each other different groups are or if the posts I'm seeing are not a representation of how things are. It will be part of the experience

 

[canuck78]

People immigrate for various reasons. In the past most immigrants wanted to blend in as soon as possible. In the past 20 years you have seen lots of people immigrate but want to retain their country's culture, food, traditions, language, etc while enjoying the education, job market, clean air, etc in Canada. They have no plans to adopt a "typical" Canadian life for their families. While I love that all Canadians can easily access various cultures, food, etc there are certain areas of Canada where there is a certain ethnic concentration where if you are not part of the cultural group you may feel excluded/unwelcome. Also lots of examples In Canada where there is a lot of cultural interaction especially in the kids of immigrants. Depends on what you seek out. Also living in some areas make or harder or easier to interact with different groups.

 

[hamgha]

People immigrate for various reasons. In the past most immigrants wanted to blend in as soon as possible. In the past 20 years you have seen lots of people immigrate but want to retain their country's culture, food, traditions, language, etc while enjoying the education, job market, clean air, etc in Canada. They have no plans to adopt a "typical" Canadian life for their families. While I love that all Canadians can easily access various cultures, food, etc there are certain areas of Canada where there is a certain ethnic concentration where if you are not part of the cultural group you may feel excluded/unwelcome. Also lots of examples In Canada where there is a lot of cultural interaction especially in the kids of immigrants. Depends on what you seek out. Also living in some areas make or harder or easier to interact with different groups.

Yes! I'm all for keeping "home culture" but not for limiting my interaction and would be kids to my own community. After all I don't have a community per se (language is the only thing people from arab countries have in common) so I'll be someone who doesn't mind living anywhere or anyplace. I'll have to look into this further. Thank you for your insights!

 

[NetMecca]

Canadian society is very multicultural and depending which city you settle in you will find integrating easier or harder. Often in smaller cities it is harder to connect with canadian born people, no matter how hard you try. Smaller cities are especially difficult. Even though I have not connected to my own country folk I do find that I get along easier with immigrants, no matter where they are from.

We face similar challenges and therefor it is easier to connect. We have also all immigrated in search of a better life. Big connection point.

Most Canadian born people have little comprehension of this, making it harder. Smaller cities (though they will deny it) are much more closed. Happy to have foreigners as tourist and for that there is no friendlier place in the world, but live there and though they will accept you and even seem like they want to connect with you, when push comes to shove, you may be surprised how closed canadian society can be. Expect that you will be able to make a great life here but having a support structure that understands who you are and where you are from, will not be a bad thing.

Good luck. It is an adventure and a journey.

 

[hamgha]

I do find that I get along easier with immigrants, no matter where they are from.

We face similar challenges and therefor it is easier to connect. We have also all immigrated in search of a better life. Big connection point.

Exactly my point and what worried me when I saw immigrants only connecting with their own. I'm sure not everyone is like that

 

[vensak]

Here are some points, when it is useful to have contacts with your own "community".

1. When comparing and understanding systems (for example you go to drive test center to get your driving licence, but you go to Service Ontario to exchange it. But in your country it was different. So when somebody explains you that it is advantageous).

2. When doing some specific tasks that includes proper paperwork from your home country (for example first year taxation, education documents for your children and such. Then again it is good to know, if somebody can help and advise you.

3. Meals from your country. More like where to get same or similar ingredients if you want to cook it here or where to go, if you want eat it here. Just remember in both cases it will not be the same (especially restaurants have to set up for local taste, so your food might not be as spicy, sweet or salty as you were used to).

4. Getting more news about your old country. This one is more or less obsolete with the age of internet and easy communication. However it can be still refreshing to know what is happening at home.

And here are the points why it is it not so good to live in your own "community"

1. Language. The more you use your language and the less you try to use English or French, the more difficult is it to improve. And even if you have received high score in the language test, most of you have accent. And unlike to be able learn proper grammar or to learn to pronounce somewhat decently, accent is the last to go. And the best way to get rid of it is listen to locals as much as possible and try to mimic their speech. So the less you are doing it the longer it takes. And that at the end is burden. Nobody might tell you that, but there are professions where too strange accent is a burden. (handling important clients with thick foreigner accent might hint, that your company is outsourcing abroad, but not always with best quality in mind. Dealing with small children like that is rather no go. And even is some positions of doctors or lawyers, that is a hindrance.).

2. False comfort zone. You will stay in your own culture which seems to be good but it is bad at the same time. It so happens, that when you meet the new culture it mixture usually has parts that are better than what you know and part that might be step back for you. Without much willingness to learn how they function, you will keep all the weaknesses of your own culture and you would hardly try to improve it. Why? Because that is what you know already. Implementing the better parts for you and in terms offering what is better for them will be beneficial for both side.

3. We and they syndrome. When you are enclosed in your community, you see yourself outside new country. Then you think of your new countrymen as "they" rather than "we" and again it takes much longer to switch to the we thinking if you decide to party separate yourself from the rest. As a result loyalty is lacking when needed. Because it takes that thinking of we wants to be better we want to improve as a country for the country to slowly improve.

4. Limited options. If you go for living in your own community, you are limiting your options. Starting with area where you want to live, or what services to use and whom to meet with.

 

[lieudefroid]

After some years of living in Canada, I can say that culture and language are the biggest barriers to integrate across "ethnic" communities. Especially for first generation families to get together, overcoming these barriers, is nearly impossible because first generation immigrants still practice ethnic habits, in terms of food and other customs.

These are overcome in the workplace by adults as individuals, and in schools by kids separately, because we practice professional ways there and not ethnic ways, but socially and culturally coming together (for example, in ethnic weddings) is not so common

 

[hamgha]

After some years of living in Canada, I can say that culture and language are the biggest barriers to integrate across "ethnic" communities. Especially for first generation families to get together, overcoming these barriers, is nearly impossible because first generation immigrants still practice ethnic habits, in terms of food and other customs.

These are overcome in the workplace by adults as individuals, and in schools by kids separately, because we practice professional ways there and not ethnic ways, but socially and culturally coming together (for example, in ethnic weddings) is not so common

I hope I'll fit in at some point, I have a slight accent which shows I'm not a local and at the same time I have no "community" or ethnicity. Being from the Levant, up until a few years back, the US census bureau considered us as white!!

Here are some points, when it is useful to have contacts with your own "community".

1. When comparing and understanding systems (for example you go to drive test center to get your driving licence, but you go to Service Ontario to exchange it. But in your country it was different. So when somebody explains you that it is advantageous).

2. When doing some specific tasks that includes proper paperwork from your home country (for example first year taxation, education documents for your children and such. Then again it is good to know, if somebody can help and advise you.

I have a couple of friends already there where I'm heading, that should cover it. But agreed on all your points about how restricting yourself to your own community according to home country can do more harm than good. Like I said initially I was surprised by forum questions asking about "where x nationality lives" etc... I guess it's already scary to emigrate so people might tend to stick to their comfort zone.

Thanks a lot guys for your input! Interesting perspectives. Hopefully I'll do well trying to fit in if I move!

 

[keesio]

RookieMistake's post covers a lot of the key points. One thing which I think is very important:

I fully agree with you, hamgha.

• Many (if not most immigrants, esp from third world countries, have economic goals to fulfil - job, house, car, school, bank balance - basically upward mobility. From many of the posts like "where to move in Canada", "what's the weather like in Canada", "will i get a job", "which city is best to live" etc it shows that people are mostly eager to just move from their country to Canada. They might see Canada more like a tool, a means to an end. Integration never quite comes to their mind. Yes integrate within your community in Canada and help others come over but The integration part stops there.

I think this point is very accurate. My wife's parents immigrated to the USA from South Korea back in the early 80s. even after 35 years, they never integrated because they had no desire to. They immigrated for economic reasons not cultural. With the huge Korean population in NYC, they can comfortably live in that community without having to. They don't really speak English, prefer Korean food, music, TV, etc... My dad is similar (also immigrated to the USA from Korea, though his reasons were more for stability), though my mom integrated more because she had a more professional job that required dealing with people outside of the Korean community.

Yes, for many immigrants, the reason is for economics or stability (or both). The desire to integrate is not there if there is no need for it. That's why little enclaves invariably pop up with the population gets large enough.

 

[canuck78]

Best of luck. It is all about attitude. It think you will find that Canada is very welcoming especially compared to most parts of the world. If you put in the effort to meet people, speak English when possible, have an open mind things will work out fine.