UK Citizen with PR status back living in the UK

[canadauk1]

Hi

I am a UK citizen and have PR status (skilled worker) in Canada from May 2011-May 2016. Having lived with Canada from April 2012-June 2013 (ie 13 months), I moved back to the UK with my Canadian fiance who is on a Tier 5 YMS visa in the UK. We are due to get married in March 2014 so technically via the spouse of a Canadian citizen abroad, I would meet PR renewal 730 day obligations. However, we are planning on staying in the UK (at least for the short term) and only travelling back to Canada to visit her family. At the moment, we don't know if we would ever move back to Canada so I want to leave our options open

So a couple of questions:
1) Is it better to let the PR card run its course and then renew the PR card when we decide to move back in 3-4 years? Or should I revoke the PR card and reapply for a new one (this time under spousal) to when I actually need it? How do I revoke it from outside the UK?
2) If I did let the PR card run its course and still live within the UK, as I regularly VISIT Canada to see my fiances parents, would I have problems on entering so should I revoke it?
3) If it's better to RENEW the PR card, how do I do that from outside Canada? I believe I can put in a Canadian address but Im unclear how to get the form over to them and in which part do I need to physically be in Canada as part of the form process.
4) Following on from point 3 above. Unfortunately I dont have a lot of bank statements/letters left from my time in Canada from April 2012- June 2013. What other evidence can I use to prove? I know some of the flight numbers etc but I don't have a stamp for every entry/exit as border control is pretty inconsistent with stamps

I'm basically trying to figure out what's the best thing to do with my almost expired PR card to ensure I can reapply for a new one later down the line if we were to move back (via my future spouse) but also allow me to visit Canada in the meantime whilst living in the UK

Thanks

 

[CanV]

Hi

I am a UK citizen and have PR status (skilled worker) in Canada from May 2011-May 2016. Having lived with Canada from April 2012-June 2013 (ie 13 months), I moved back to the UK with my Canadian fiance who is on a Tier 5 YMS visa in the UK. We are due to get married in March 2014 so technically via the spouse of a Canadian citizen abroad, I would meet PR renewal 730 day obligations. However, we are planning on staying in the UK (at least for the short term) and only travelling back to Canada to visit her family. At the moment, we don't know if we would ever move back to Canada so I want to leave our options open

So a couple of questions:
1) Is it better to let the PR card run its course and then renew the PR card when we decide to move back in 3-4 years? Or should I revoke the PR card and reapply for a new one (this time under spousal) to when I actually need it? How do I revoke it from outside the UK?
2) If I did let the PR card run its course and still live within the UK, as I regularly VISIT Canada to see my fiances parents, would I have problems on entering so should I revoke it?
3) If it's better to RENEW the PR card, how do I do that from outside Canada? I believe I can put in a Canadian address but Im unclear how to get the form over to them and in which part do I need to physically be in Canada as part of the form process.
4) Following on from point 3 above. Unfortunately I dont have a lot of bank statements/letters left from my time in Canada from April 2012- June 2013. What other evidence can I use to prove? I know some of the flight numbers etc but I don't have a stamp for every entry/exit as border control is pretty inconsistent with stamps

I'm basically trying to figure out what's the best thing to do with my almost expired PR card to ensure I can reapply for a new one later down the line if we were to move back (via my future spouse) but also allow me to visit Canada in the meantime whilst living in the UK

Thanks

1 - Revoking it is pointless if you want to reapply later. Just let it expire and renew it when it does. You will be able to renew it since you live with a Canadian wife abroad.
2- You cannot "visit" Canada when you are a PR. Even if you board the plane with an expired PR card claiming you are going to visit Canada you enter as a PR.
3 - Best to fill out the forms and mail them while you are in Canada. Remember someone needs to check mail for correspondence from CIC. Also remember you may be asked to submit additional documents, go for interview, or pick up card in oerson.
4 - Employments, NOAs, T4s, school, medical records are good proofs of your residence. As a UK citizen, I really doubt you would have any issues with this.

 

[canadauk1]

Hi,

The main problem is I don't know when or even if we are going to move back - could be 2-3 even 10-15 years or never. Should I constantly look to renew the PR card every 5 years then?

I don't have kids or worked during my time in Canada as I used my savings to look after myself. I think I do have some relevant stamps and flight details so is that enough?

Thanks

 

[CanV]

Hi,

The main problem is I don't know when or even if we are going to move back - could be 2-3 even 10-15 years or never. Should I constantly look to renew the PR card every 5 years then?

I don't have kids or worked during my time in Canada as I used my savings to look after myself. I think I do have some relevant stamps and flight details so is that enough?

Thanks

I dont see what it is you are worried about. Just send your PR application renewal with whatever proofs you have at the time you apply every time it expires and wait for them to send you the card or require more documents and submit whatever they ask for if you have it. You can do this for the next 100 years if you want, who cares how many times you renew. As long as you are living for a Canadian spouse, you qualify. If you really want to relinquish your PR status then you need to apply for it at a Canadian visa office oversees. Dont apply for PRTD hoping they would relinquish your PR status because to them you actually meet the PR obligations and you are eligible for a PRTD.

 

[canadauk1]

Ok thanks. For me to meet the 730 days, I need to do renew it literally a few weeks before it expires. If I send it off but I am out the country, how do I go back in to Canada if ever during my renewal, CIC request an interview or get me to collect it in person? My PR card could potentially be expired at the point whilst Im outside the country and as I'm working in the UK, I can't just drop everything and go

 

[clearly]

I was thinking about this exact predicament you are in just the other day. CIC is so disorganized I doubt that if you knew someone who worked for CIC that they'd be able to tell you how to handle this. I think that the exemption for being out of Canada with a Canadian spouse is intended for people who are staying abroad temporarily.

Obviously, the rule applies to your situation as well, which is why it's a bit more confusing.

To add to your confusion, I think one of the posters above was incorrect. I think it'd likely be fraud to check resident on an E311 if you weren't living in Canada, even if you hold "Permanent Residence" status. Instead, I would think you should check visitor.

Additionally confusing, I am not sure what to put as your current Canadian residence on the PR Card renewal form.

Honestly, if you have no intention of returning soon, I might consider letting the card lapse and just re-entering Canada without it each time as a visitor, but don't revoke your PR status. I have a feeling CIC would not care since you are from the UK. If they ask, say you are living abroad with your Canadian spouse. It is not really a requirement to re-enter with your PR card if are entering as a visitor with your UK visa-exempt passport. I don't think they would bother with raising the issue/doing the paperwork to report you, especially as they have no reason to think you are violating your status since you appear to honestly be living abroad with a Canadian spouse.

 

[canadauk1]

Yes, it is super confusing. I might speak to an immigration lawyer and see their thoughts. Ultimately, I don't want to jeopardise any future potential of moving back to Canada so need to clear up what the best course of action is

 

[CanV]

You CANNOT "visit" when you are a PR.

 

[dpenabill]

Current law is not really all that confusing.

A Canadian PR has PR status unless and until:

-- death

-- he or she becomes a Canadian citizen

-- there is a loss of PR status as adjudicated (for inadmissibility) or surrendered (almost always done in anticipation of proceedings on inadmissibility, although on some occasions it is done collateral to obtaining or maintaining status in another country)

PR status does NOT expire.

A valid PR card is not necessary to maintain valid PR status.

For purposes of the PR Residency Obligation (not so though for citizenship), time a PR spends living abroad with a Canadian citizen spouse counts the same as time spent in Canada.

Thus, a Canadian PR living abroad with a Canadian spouse can do so indefinitely, without becoming inadmissible. There is no overall time limit.

(It is the employed by a Canadian company abroad exception, for credit toward time in Canada, that is more or less expected to be a temporary arrangement. And trickier in other ways as well.)

The exception for PRs living with (technically "accompanying") their Canadian citizen spouse abroad is actually quite simple and straight-forward so long as the PR can readily prove the genuine existence of the qualified relationship, the spouse's Canadian citizenship, and actual cohabitation.



Of course a PR can visit Canada, but cannot legally enter Canada with "visitor" status (only Foreign Nationals can enter Canada with visitor status, and PRs are not Foreign Nationals, but are Canadians, "Canadian Permanent Residents" to be precise). No need to get confused by ordinary usage of words like "visit," compared to technical terms designating formal status.

In particular, there is no problem with a PR living in the UK (and who is not inadmissible) traveling to Canada to visit for the holidays. No intent to stay or maintain residence in Canada is required. Canadian PRs living in the U.S., for example, can make day trips to visit Canada. (Although, again, they enter Canada with the status of a Canadian PR, not with visitor status; and what really matters is that they are in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation and do not become inadmissible.)

In other words, nothing wrong with a candid exchange at the POE: "where do you live?" "Liverpool, England." "What is the purpose of your trip?" "To visit in-laws." You may be questioned about compliance with the PR Residency Obligation, but if you are traveling with your partner that should be a breeze, and if not traveling with your partner, perhaps a good idea to have a copy of marriage certificate, something showing partner's Canadian citizenship, and something to show you cohabitate, just in case the questions get more serious.

Living abroad for years, accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse, can be more difficult, or at least inconvenient, for PRs who do not hold a visa-exempt passport, because that requires the PR to apply for and obtain a PR Travel Document for every trip to Canada.

PRs living abroad (likewise accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse) who have a visa-exempt passport should be able to travel to Canada fairly easily, using the visa-exempt passport, even though no longer in possession of a valid PR card. Technically this is not supposed to be true, but so far practically it is by almost all accounts. This could change in 2015 when for most travelers from a visa-exempt country (other than U.S. citizens, the British Royal Family, and a few other specific groups) a requirement to obtain preboarding authorization, electronically, comes into effect. Worst case scenario, however, is having to obtain a PR Travel Document for boarding flights to Canada, or travel via the U.S. and entering Canada by car at a land crossing POE (if pressed for time, and cannot wait for processing of a PR Travel Document).

In particular, for a PR living abroad with a Canadian citizen spouse there is no need to renew the PR card unless and until the PR decides to return to Canada to live (and even then, possession of a valid PR card is not required, just convenient if and when one goes to travel internationally).

Many PRs who are rooted more abroad than in Canada manipulate the system to obtain a PR card during a stay in Canada. This is OK so long as no misrepresentation or material omission is made in providing information to CIC. My sense is this is going to be more difficult to do going forward. And again, so long as the PR is in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation (which is easy for a PR living with a Canadian citizen spouse), there is no real need (other than convenience) to have a valid PR card while abroad.

If there is a need to apply for a PR Travel Document, it is important, however, to be sure to include sufficient information and documentation to prove compliance with the PR Residency Obligation. (This means submitting proof of the qualified relationship; proof of partner's Canadian citizenship; and proof of cohabitation long enough to meet the residency obligation.)

Caveat: the law is always subject to change. There is no hint that any changes to the PR Residency Obligation are on the horizon, but for a PR living abroad indefinitely, it would be prudent to pay attention to Canadian immigration law at least enough to know if any changes to the PR Residency Obligation are in the works.

 

[canadauk1]

Thanks dpenadbill.

So just trying to distil the information you gave me:
1) I should not revoke my PR status
2) During the duration of my PR card length (i.e upto May 2016) I shouldn't really have a problem when questioned about my obligations as I am travelling with my soon to be spouse and I will still meet the obligations.

What's not immediately clear though is what I should do if the PR card is expired (and say for now, the rules are kept the same).
3) I think you are saying, when my card expires, I should only renew when we decide to actually move back to Canada to live (e.g 2, 3 even 10-15 years from now)?
4) In the cases where I am looking to go on a short trip/visit relatives back to Canada, I should still travel with my expired PR card but have proof of my relationship/co-habitation with my Canadian spouse like a marriage certificate. So its the year 2025 and I'm going for another visit but my PR card expired in 2016. Will this not look a bit off or should I not even show my PR card?
5) When I finally do renew the PR card, the best way to do this is to do it via a stay in Canada. However, from the CIC site, there is a possibility of an inteview/collect the PR card face to face which can happen at anytime so I would have to get someone I know to keep a close eye on CIC mail and then notify me when I need come back in the country again to interview/collect the PR card?

Thanks

 

[clearly]

You CANNOT "visit" when you are a PR.

It depends on what you mean. There is immigration status, tax status, and customs status, all involved. For immigration purposes, you are not a visitor, but for customs and taxes you are a foreign resident visiting Canada. It is the same case for a Canadian citizen living abroad.

 

[dpenabill]

So just trying to distil the information you gave me:
1) I should not revoke my PR status
2) During the duration of my PR card length (i.e upto May 2016) I shouldn't really have a problem when questioned about my obligations as I am travelling with my soon to be spouse and I will still meet the obligations.

What's not immediately clear though is what I should do if the PR card is expired (and say for now, the rules are kept the same).
3) I think you are saying, when my card expires, I should only renew when we decide to actually move back to Canada to live (e.g 2, 3 even 10-15 years from now)?
4) In the cases where I am looking to go on a short trip/visit relatives back to Canada, I should still travel with my expired PR card but have proof of my relationship/co-habitation with my Canadian spouse like a marriage certificate. So its the year 2025 and I'm going for another visit but my PR card expired in 2016. Will this not look a bit off or should I not even show my PR card?
5) When I finally do renew the PR card, the best way to do this is to do it via a stay in Canada. However, from the CIC site, there is a possibility of an inteview/collect the PR card face to face which can happen at anytime so I would have to get someone I know to keep a close eye on CIC mail and then notify me when I need come back in the country again to interview/collect the PR card?

To be clear, I steer away from offering personal advice. Forums like this are not a good venue for obtaining advice. Information, yes. Insights, sure. Reports of experiences others have had, definitely. But not personal advice. For reliable personal advice, see a Canadian immigration lawyer, and even then remember a lawyer can offer no more than opinion, hopefully a well-informed opinion.

As I alluded to in my previous post, historically many, many PRs predominantly living abroad have engaged in various means to renew their PR cards even though they are not actually living in Canada. For those in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation there is no need to do this. PR status does not depend on having a valid PR card. They do this though because, in part, it is more convenient relative to traveling back to Canada. That said, many do it because they are cutting the PR Residency Obligation close, or are not actually in compliance with the RO, and having a valid PR card in possession avoids the more strict scrutiny PRs abroad are given when applying for a Travel Document, and the valid PR card tends to make entry into Canada easier, with less likelihood of questions (at the POE) in the vein of a Residency Examination.

There is the unknown factor regarding the impact of the new preboarding e-authorization process which will be implemented in 2015 for nearly all visa-exempt passport holders (the main exception is for U.S. citizens). But, as I said in my previous post, the worst case scenario is that for the PR abroad without a valid PR card this might require obtaining a PR Travel Document for travel to Canada. Frankly, my guess is that it will not, so long as it is clear the PR is in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation. But I do not know. That's just my guess.

CIC's policy clearly is that the renewal or replacement of a PR card is for Canadians actually residing in Canada. I am confident that it will be more difficult for PRs to fudge on this in the future.

And sure, part of what underlies this policy is that CIC wants to keep better tabs on the admissibility of PRs who are not residing in Canada.

Whether you attempt to obtain a new PR card during a "stay" in Canada is a personal decision. Let me just caution that CIC expects clients to accurately report the place they actually live as their residential address, and they expect any representative be disclosed, even if it is a parent or brother who is just a person receiving mail for the PR. Many PRs do not do this. Many give an address that is actually that of a close friend or brother or such, as if that is their address, and in effect get-away-with-this. But there is really no reason to do this for a PR who is legitimately in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation.

Yes, it is more convenient to have the currently valid PR card. Yes, technically a PR abroad without a valid PR card is presumed to not have valid PR status. But, proof of identity plus proof of compliance with the PR Residency Obligation is generally all that is needed to overcome that presumption. PRs living abroad with a Canadian citizen spouse really should have no problems with this at all . . . so long as they remember to submit that proof if they need to apply for a PR Travel Document, and to carry (in their hands) copies of documents showing this when traveling to and arriving at a Canadian POE.

I have become a Canadian citizen, so I do not face these issues personally. If I did, though, I would go without having a valid PR card while I lived abroad (with my Canadian citizen spouse) and only worry about applying for a new/replacement PR card if and when I actually moved back to Canada to live in Canada. That's what CIC prefers.

But what you or someone else does in this situation is, again, a personal decision. For now, though, it is clear that CBSA and CIC are elevating their scrutiny of the information clients submit, and to my view going forward it will be foolish to make any declaration that is not plainly accurate. That is, for example, reporting one's "residence" to CBSA or CIC is not like giving a bank or business a "home" address that is really the address of a friend or family.

 

[dpenabill]

It depends on what you mean. There is immigration status, tax status, and customs status, all involved. For immigration purposes, you are not a visitor, but for customs and taxes you are a foreign resident visiting Canada. It is the same case for a Canadian citizen living abroad.

There is no reason to confuse the ordinary usage of "visit" as an action with formal designations of status.

A Canadian PR living abroad can visit Canada, for a day or week or three months, or whatever. The act of visiting Canada does not affect the PR's status.

Only Foreign Nationals can enter or remain in Canada with "visitor status," and PRs are not Foreign Nationals, they are Canadians, "Canadian Permanent Residents" to be precise.

The OP here was clearly referring to occasionally visiting Canada while otherwise living abroad. That is OK. (Recognizing that to remain admissible, and thus maintain PR status, the PR must comply with the PR residency obligation.)

 

[canadauk1]

Thanks for that, I was planning going to a Canadian Immigration lawyer and get their advice. I think a lot of what you said makes sense so really appreciate your input

 

[canadauk1]

Just an update on this. I decided to apply for the multiple entry PR TD and they gave me 5 years